An end to tuning?
01-12-2007, 08:19 AM
#1
Boone & Crockett
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
An end to tuning?
It has been some time since I have really left a post about an issue I feel really compelled to write about. The title of this thread "an end to tuning" is not really accurate when looking at the bigger picture of what I am trying to relate but it seemed appropriate enough to get everyone's attention.
I haven't been as active postinglately across the variety of archery/hunting forumson the net but I have been spending time reading alot more of the posts and I am starting to notice a larger pattern. Tuning, in one form or another,is an issue most often debated on the forums. Some folks prefer to approach it from one perspective while others choose a different route. Some advocate an entirely comprehensive approach. Each, obviously, has its benefits.
The other side of the issue, and the one seldom openly mentioned on the forums because of the obvious reprisal, is the fact that many archers do not tune their bows, do not want to tune their bows or at least do not feel the need to tune their bows to the extent so often advocatedon the forumsby the resident experts.
Still, there is a third side to this which is connected to the first two but is rarely mentioned in the same context...that of equipment design itself. What I believe we have been seeing for quite some time now is the gradual progression towards more easily tuned equipment or, let me rephrase that,at least the attempt to create more easily tuned equipment. Case in point, lets address cam design.
We had our first big "revolution" when Mathews introduced their version of the single cam design back in the mid 90's. The selling point for that particular design was the lack of the need for cam synchronization. Without two cams one never had to worry about tuning issues related to the synchronization of cams. Ofcourse, other issues related to the original single cam design arose which caused another entirely different group of tuning issues. However, the original intent of the new design was to reduce the need for one aspect of tuning.
Step forward 6 or 7 years and we havea wave of hybrid designs hitting the market. Their selling point? The fact that they solve some of the faults of the original single cam design thus making a bow easier to tune and stay in tune. Even within the most recent crop of bows you see constant redesigns to remedy such things as cam lean, limb twist and/or synchronization issues. To what end? Well that would seem obvious...to help reduce the time and effort associated with tuning any given setup.
Need further examples? Look no further than the use of such things as bearings instead of bushings or the increased use of carbon arrows versus aluminums. Why the latter? Well, the last I checked there were only about 4 different sizes for any given carbon arrow to cover the entire typical range of draw lengths, draw weights and cam styles. Compare that with the good ol' Easton chart which had 5 different sized aluminum shafts for just one draw length, draw weight and cam style. Ofcourse, since I mentioned carbons we cannot ignore the fact that there continues to be less manufacturing consistancy than withaluminums and thus further tuning issues. However, my point still is that with even this piece of equipment the emphasis is on making it easier to utilize the correct setup for you as an individual thus making the entire tuning process less time consuming.
So where am I going with this? Well, I wanted to point out a few things that I have noticed so you would understand my next question. Are we headed towards a point where we will not need to utilize two of the three parts of Len's equation? Will we reach a stage where we will not need to tune the bow and tune the arrow but just tune the archer?
Think about it. Wouldn't it stand to reason that a bow manufacturer could get together with an arrow manufacturer and even possibly a broadhead manufacturerto produce a combination which would result in an absolutely tune-free setup with regard to the equipment?
To take that one step further, what would stop them from designing a setup that would make it possible for the archer to makesome minormistakes and yet still achieveacceptable accuracy for the intended activity?
I can hear the critics now. "We already havesomething close to that type of setup but it would never sell because it would not be fast or flashy."Possibly true,but then the challenge would then be to design such a setup while stillbeing able to make it attractive to the bowhunter and target shooter.
So here is the challenge:
Design a bow that doesn't requirea constant check of cam timing or synchronization, nock point height, centershot, et.....
Design an arrow which is consistant from shaft to shaft and perfectly matched for the bow.
Design a broadhead that requires no additional tuning and is also perfectly matched for bow and arrow combination.
Aftergiving this alot of thought I truly believe that the next step in theequipment revolution will be to design a setup from the ground up with the emphasis on making bow, arrow and point (field point or broadhead) work together so that the only issue the archer must address is himself.
I haven't been as active postinglately across the variety of archery/hunting forumson the net but I have been spending time reading alot more of the posts and I am starting to notice a larger pattern. Tuning, in one form or another,is an issue most often debated on the forums. Some folks prefer to approach it from one perspective while others choose a different route. Some advocate an entirely comprehensive approach. Each, obviously, has its benefits.
The other side of the issue, and the one seldom openly mentioned on the forums because of the obvious reprisal, is the fact that many archers do not tune their bows, do not want to tune their bows or at least do not feel the need to tune their bows to the extent so often advocatedon the forumsby the resident experts.
Still, there is a third side to this which is connected to the first two but is rarely mentioned in the same context...that of equipment design itself. What I believe we have been seeing for quite some time now is the gradual progression towards more easily tuned equipment or, let me rephrase that,at least the attempt to create more easily tuned equipment. Case in point, lets address cam design.
We had our first big "revolution" when Mathews introduced their version of the single cam design back in the mid 90's. The selling point for that particular design was the lack of the need for cam synchronization. Without two cams one never had to worry about tuning issues related to the synchronization of cams. Ofcourse, other issues related to the original single cam design arose which caused another entirely different group of tuning issues. However, the original intent of the new design was to reduce the need for one aspect of tuning.
Step forward 6 or 7 years and we havea wave of hybrid designs hitting the market. Their selling point? The fact that they solve some of the faults of the original single cam design thus making a bow easier to tune and stay in tune. Even within the most recent crop of bows you see constant redesigns to remedy such things as cam lean, limb twist and/or synchronization issues. To what end? Well that would seem obvious...to help reduce the time and effort associated with tuning any given setup.
Need further examples? Look no further than the use of such things as bearings instead of bushings or the increased use of carbon arrows versus aluminums. Why the latter? Well, the last I checked there were only about 4 different sizes for any given carbon arrow to cover the entire typical range of draw lengths, draw weights and cam styles. Compare that with the good ol' Easton chart which had 5 different sized aluminum shafts for just one draw length, draw weight and cam style. Ofcourse, since I mentioned carbons we cannot ignore the fact that there continues to be less manufacturing consistancy than withaluminums and thus further tuning issues. However, my point still is that with even this piece of equipment the emphasis is on making it easier to utilize the correct setup for you as an individual thus making the entire tuning process less time consuming.
So where am I going with this? Well, I wanted to point out a few things that I have noticed so you would understand my next question. Are we headed towards a point where we will not need to utilize two of the three parts of Len's equation? Will we reach a stage where we will not need to tune the bow and tune the arrow but just tune the archer?
Think about it. Wouldn't it stand to reason that a bow manufacturer could get together with an arrow manufacturer and even possibly a broadhead manufacturerto produce a combination which would result in an absolutely tune-free setup with regard to the equipment?
To take that one step further, what would stop them from designing a setup that would make it possible for the archer to makesome minormistakes and yet still achieveacceptable accuracy for the intended activity?
I can hear the critics now. "We already havesomething close to that type of setup but it would never sell because it would not be fast or flashy."Possibly true,but then the challenge would then be to design such a setup while stillbeing able to make it attractive to the bowhunter and target shooter.
So here is the challenge:
Design a bow that doesn't requirea constant check of cam timing or synchronization, nock point height, centershot, et.....
Design an arrow which is consistant from shaft to shaft and perfectly matched for the bow.
Design a broadhead that requires no additional tuning and is also perfectly matched for bow and arrow combination.
Aftergiving this alot of thought I truly believe that the next step in theequipment revolution will be to design a setup from the ground up with the emphasis on making bow, arrow and point (field point or broadhead) work together so that the only issue the archer must address is himself.
01-12-2007, 08:33 AM
#2
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Milford, Delaware
Posts: 1,919
RE: An end to tuning?
Excellent post.iI think that if they were to attempt that sort of thing ,wouldn't the most finicky part of the equation need to adressed first?THE STRING.I know there are a lot of excellent strings out that are very good but,I think tha they would have to come up witha string material that will not stretch or creep at all.
01-12-2007, 08:45 AM
#3
Boone & Crockett
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: An end to tuning?
Excellent post.iI think that if they were to attempt that sort of thing ,wouldn't the most finicky part of the equation need to adressed first?THE STRING.I know there are a lot of excellent strings out that are very good but,I think tha they would have to come up witha string material that will not stretch or creep at all.
Imagine the increased accuracy potential when you rule out having to tune your bow and arrow combination?.......the ability to focus on your shooting form without worrying whether or not it is you or the gear....
.....imagine the increased penetration potential from a "perfectly" tuned setup...and the tons of folks who would be drawn to it.
01-12-2007, 08:52 AM
#4
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Milford, Delaware
Posts: 1,919
RE: An end to tuning?
This would definately be a wonderful thing if this were to happen.The only thing that i think most people would object to is the price.I think that in order for something of this magatude to come about the price for "this" bow would astonomical.To invole bow companies,arrow maker's,and broadhead maker's into one projectwould drastically raise prices beyond what normal people could even afford.I'll take one though
01-12-2007, 09:09 AM
#5
Boone & Crockett
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: An end to tuning?
I had considered that as well. But two points came to mind.
One, we already have bows in the $900-$1100 range. Those bows tend to have some of best components, design, etc.....and people are buying them.
Two, then that would be another hurdle that would have to be overcome by those with the skills to do so. I am sure if they put their mind to it then they would be able to come up with some way of producing it at a price within acceptable limits for many people.
Keep in mind I am not saying this is attainable now but we seem to be headed in that direction, don't you think?
One, we already have bows in the $900-$1100 range. Those bows tend to have some of best components, design, etc.....and people are buying them.
Two, then that would be another hurdle that would have to be overcome by those with the skills to do so. I am sure if they put their mind to it then they would be able to come up with some way of producing it at a price within acceptable limits for many people.
Keep in mind I am not saying this is attainable now but we seem to be headed in that direction, don't you think?
01-12-2007, 09:30 AM
#6
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location:
Posts: 13,082
RE: An end to tuning?
I think you are 100% correct. I've thought alot lately about where bows are headed in the next...say, 5 years, and this is a logical progression.
But I say, what's the fun in that? If you can go to the pro shop and buy everything designed to work together, install it and VOILA, She is tuned, where's the self gratification, the knowing you had to WORK at it to get it where you wanted it. When I buy a new bow, install all the goodies, head to the range for some paper tuning, spend time and WORK getting it tuned, I am a happy dude when I see that bullet hole.
I think society as a whole is just becoming .....lazy. "Why do it myself when someone else will do it for me?" I say forget that! How is are you gonna learn about archery, about what makes it tick, and how the heck are you gonna get any BETTER if you no longer need to tune your bow...I really hope it doesn't go to that extreme, but again, it's a logical progression.
But I say, what's the fun in that? If you can go to the pro shop and buy everything designed to work together, install it and VOILA, She is tuned, where's the self gratification, the knowing you had to WORK at it to get it where you wanted it. When I buy a new bow, install all the goodies, head to the range for some paper tuning, spend time and WORK getting it tuned, I am a happy dude when I see that bullet hole.
I think society as a whole is just becoming .....lazy. "Why do it myself when someone else will do it for me?" I say forget that! How is are you gonna learn about archery, about what makes it tick, and how the heck are you gonna get any BETTER if you no longer need to tune your bow...I really hope it doesn't go to that extreme, but again, it's a logical progression.
01-12-2007, 09:38 AM
#7
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Milford, Delaware
Posts: 1,919
RE: An end to tuning?
I agree with everything you are saying here.Maybe if they were able to come up with thedesign and collectively decided to make the bow a reasonable price.I think that if they could that then they would be able to corner the market with this technology.I magine how many bows they WOULD sell.If they came up with a massive advertising promotion andwere to debut this bow at the ATA,all other companies better watch out.
01-12-2007, 11:30 AM
#8
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kodiak, AK
Posts: 2,877
RE: An end to tuning?
ORIGINAL: newman1
This would definately be a wonderful thing if this were to happen.The only thing that i think most people would object to is the price.I think that in order for something of this magatude to come about the price for "this" bow would astonomical.To invole bow companies,arrow maker's,and broadhead maker's into one projectwould drastically raise prices beyond what normal people could even afford.I'll take one though
This would definately be a wonderful thing if this were to happen.The only thing that i think most people would object to is the price.I think that in order for something of this magatude to come about the price for "this" bow would astonomical.To invole bow companies,arrow maker's,and broadhead maker's into one projectwould drastically raise prices beyond what normal people could even afford.I'll take one though
The drawback I see here is that people don't come out of cookie cutters. We're all different sizes and shapes. Each draw length/weight is going to require a different arrow which requires a different set-up. To compound that problem we have different applications as well; what I shoot for 3D isn't what I shoot for NFAA isn't what I shoot for hunting and what I hunt brown bears and moose with isn't what I hunt deer with... Now we're talking about a whole slew of different set-ups. When you add to that the number of different manufacturers you get just about what we have now; an individual with certain needs and a bow with certain needs that need to be matched and tuned to each other. That's why there'll always be Chevys, Fords and Dodges (Hoyts, BowTechs and Matthews) and bows will always need some level of tuning.
01-12-2007, 12:36 PM
#9
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: An end to tuning?
I say they can try, but I don't see it happening. I believe many put waaay too much stock in the tuning issue and not enough in how to shoot well. Besides when you are tuning you are tuning the bow and arrow to the archer. It is a very individual thing, there is no way you design that into a bow.
Pick any bow and put it in a shooting machine. Pick any quality arrows that are consistant from arrow to arrow. They will all shoot to pretty much the same spot. What does this tell me? It has more to do with the guy plucking the string than equipment he is using.
Here is some text that I posted some time ago in another post about tuning. It's long and boring but it explains my veiws on tuning. As Frank knows I am not afriad of a long post. This doesn't fit the complete context of this post, but I feel it relates. This was actually an argument I was having with someone about someone tuning their bow. I have edited slightly to make it less scathing (and make me look like less of an ass[
]). I'm not even sure it was on this site, but it probably was.
Well here goes, happy reading.
"
I will state that when I speak of tuning Iam talking about target shooting and mostly at fixed distances, not different yardages. However I have never really experienced the problem with different impact points as I move back in yardage. At least not any that I couldn’t fix by touching up my sight adjustment. I like to set my windage from the furthest distance I can shoot well. After doing this I am normally right on when I move up to 20 yards. No rest adjustments required to get my windage correct. From what I have seen this problem is usually caused by form problems like canting the bow or grip problems. You are really just adjusting the rest to fit your shooting style.
I am in no way saying that tuning is not important and you shouldn’t bother with it. Getting your arrow to leave the bow in the straightest line never hurts, and is a great advantage using fixed blade heads. But like I said, shooting field points with adequate fletching at normal distances just isn’t that complicated. All the tuning in the world isn’t going to fix 6 to 8 inch groups at 20 yards. And leading someone to believe otherwise is just filling their head with miss information. This poor guy will be dinking with his bow until he gives up. When in reality he probably just needs to learn to shoot better and get his bow to fit him properly. Then he can worry about tuning it to be more forgiving and accurate.
Here are some quotes about tuning and its place in archery. In some cases these quote are condensed versions of the actual text in order to make my obscenely long post a bit shorter. I have tried to keep the original context of the message as close to the point as it can be. I know I hate it when I am quoted out of context.
From the book Idiot Proof archery from Bernie Pellerite:
“Most archers think bow tuning is the most important part of accuracy. Nothing could be farther from the truth! In theory bow tuning plays absolutely no role in accuracy. This is easily proven if you have access to a good shooting machine. A shooting machine is capable of putting every arrow in the same hole.”
“I know some of you must be thinking I am anti tuning. Not at all! I believe that bow tuning is an essential part of good archery. We are human beings not machines, and only humans need to tune a bow. Tuning simply tries to counteract the influence that a flaw in our execution has on the arrow’s impact. The only reason for bow tuning is to improve our bad shots; our good shots all go where we aim any way. And, as for our really bad shots… tuning won’t help much at all.”
“The key here is to understand that in theory, tuning is not related to accuracy. Tuning is related only to bow performance and forgiveness… accuracy is related to consistent execution of form. Therefore, the more consistent we are in our form, the more accurate we will be.”
These are some quotes from Bob Ragsdale’s questions and answers page:
“Don't be obsessed with "tuning" because that is NOT where accuracy comes from. If you can shoot "perfect" paper test holes at 8 and 25 feet then you are already WAY ahead of the average archer who is probably more accurate than you, but has never run a test of any kind and is nowhere near as good on spine as you.”
“A bow has to have an extremely incorrect arrow spine and/or be dramatically miss-aligned within the bow to 'not group' relatively well. So we'll take the attitude here that you are NOT doing one or all of these 3 things; A. Not allowing the bow to recover identically each time; B. Not pointing the bow in the right direction each time; C. Not using identical ammunition each time.
A. A bow only does one thing for a living; it goes back to the rest position from full draw. It has no brain, can make no decisions and is not “out to get you”. This means that IF it is put in the same situation each time at full draw it has NO CHOICE except to return to the normal rest position in an identical fashion each time (i.e. if you hold the handle or the string differently or release the string differently in any fashion it cannot be expected to make an identical return trip or for the sight references or arrow alignment within the bow to remain correct).
B. At the instant the arrow nock leaves the string the shot is OVER; in the sense that the arrow is now completely on it's own and you either POINTED IT IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION (windage & elevation) OR YOU DID NOT. So you will either HIT or you will MISS because if it (i.e. if your windage and distance sight settings were not exact, or, if you torqued the grip, or, released the string at a different rate or angles, or, did not have the sight held perfectly steady on the exact target, or, if the rear sight was not properly aligned (did not take a correct sight picture) with the front sight. Aggravated even further if there was a different-manner hold or release of the string and/or a handle torque effect to cause the bow to rotate differently during recovery to an unknown sighting point wen the arrow is still on the string.
C. No 'good shot' rifleman would ever expect to shoot tight groups with several different bullet types and bullet weights by mixed manufacturers. Archers tend to think arrows are magic and always shoot perfectly, (maybe it's a fletching thing) but that's far from the truth. If one does not NUMBER THE ARROWS and 'call' the shots where they should have hit and record them and then make other notes while setting up they will waste a lot of time and effort assuming each arrow shoots identically. Point is that you shouldn't panic and make an assumption and then change based on one shot, but 'everyone' does it.”
There are many more statements like this on his site, but I figured that was the one that summed it up the best.
This is what Matt Cleland has to say about tuning in his paper he wrote about shooting the compound bow for FITA. Most know of Bernie and the Ragsdales, Matt is a local archer (Swanton Ohio) that runs an archery shop in his family’s gun store. He holds several world, national and regional archery records in indoor and out door target events. (outdoor long distance shooting up to 90 meters) With recurve and compound with both fingers and release aids. He was also on the U.S. archery team from 1998 to 2001. He gives private lessons and teaches at a local college. He is also an avid hunter.
In his 180 paragraph, 13 page paper he dedicates one paragraph to tuning. The rest is about equipment, form, aiming and the mental game. This is the paragraph about tuning:
“Equipment summary-Tune the bow for the best flight that is possible without putting too much time into it. This tuning should take less than one hour. Once decent arrow flight is achieved take the bow out to 90 or 70 meters and shoot for groups. If the bow shoots vertical groups move the nockset up and down in small amounts until nice round groups are achieved. If the bow shoots horizontal groups move the arrow rest left and right until nice round groups are achieved. Use this procedure to tune the bow then forget about it. Once this is done, focus on the mental game and practice routine. If an archer spends a lot of time worrying about the equipment and tinkering with it, his or her scores will not be what they are capable of. Worrying about equipment will not allow an archer to shoot confident shots. Remember: the one who shoots the most practice arrows usually wins.”
Ok, now about the professional archers that have won things or set records with out of tune bows. These incidents are also from the Idiot Proof Archery book mentioned above.
Bernie talks about several tuning myths and what it can and can't do for you. He states a few instances of people shooting very well with out of tune bows and bows that are not forgiving or set up properly.
One of them being Tom Crowe who is a professional target and 3-d archer. He set the vegas record for the only perfect 300 ever shot in the Bowhunter Freestyle division. And he did it with a high let off hunting bow with 5 inches of overdraw, a fletchhunter wrist style release, over spined short arrows and what everyone thought was too long of a draw and bad form. Plus his arrows were fishtailing 6 to 8 inches on the way to the target. Yet all of his arrows landed in a hole the size of nickel.
Another was Terry ragsdale in 1978. A quote from Bernie “Terry and his wife Michelle, are arguably the best target archers to ever shot a compound bow.” And the above mentioned Bob ragsdale is Terry’s father and I would assume his coach, not mention a pretty decent archer himself. He also spent many years working for PSE designing and testing bows.
Terry shot the only perfect 1200 ever recorded in Vegas and it has never been duplicated since (except by himself). By the end of the tournament he discovered that the bow string had five broken strands directly under the nock. When Terry got home he had heard rumors of a “new” Process called paper tuning (1978 remember). He shot the same arrows used in the tournament through the paper. He flunked the new test with a high left 5 inch rip in the paper. This probably would have prevented him leaving the house if he had done it before the tournament. He duplicated that feat at Cobo Hall in Detroit a month later. He did all this with a PSE Citation that had such cam lean it looked like the string would jump off the track. He also adds that most all of the indoor Vegas target records (perfect 900) were set with old style non center shot riser bows. Including the two 1200s shot by Terry ragsdale.
He also talks about a woman that won a state championship with her two wheel bow so far off it had two separate valleys. One at 28 inches and another at 31 inches! Since she couldn’t draw it that far she never knew about it. Yet she won a state championship with it? I guess she must have had good enough form to draw it to the same spot every time.
I don’t consider myself to be that great of an archer, but I feel I am better than the average hunter. Only because I practice more. I don’t compete nor do I have any desire to. I tried it once a few years ago and didn’t care for it. I don’t even keep score when I golf. I just do it because I enjoy it (I suck at golf by the way but it’s still fun with the right people). I don’t have any trouble holding a one or two inch group at 20 and 30 yards consistently, regardless of how my bow is tuned or the type of arrows I use. However I have seen really good archers shoot much better than I can using a long bow with no center shot, or rest for that matter. Not to mention using fingers and no sights. It’s because they are GOOD, period! Not because their bow is tuned better than mine, there is nothing to tune except spine and nocking point.
So this is where I come to the conclusions and opinions I have on tuning. I do believe tuning and micro tuning have their places. I just feel that most archers don’t shoot well enough to achieve it or benefit from it. It’s mostly in their heads. Having a well tuned bow and perfectly spined arrows can mean the difference between shooting X’s and breaking the line. It will not however make an archer that shoots 8 inch groups suddenly start breaking nocks arrow after arrow. Neither will switching to a drop a way rest or other fancy equipment.
The number one most important thing is that your bow fits you and is comfortable to shoot. Then concentrate on form and proper shooting technique. After that is mastered you can worry about tuning and tweaking things to eek out more accuracy. I have taken guys that couldn’t shoot 8 inch groups at 20 yards and had them shooting 3 inch groups at 30 without even changing their set up. Mostly they had poor or no anchor points and very bad grip. Then when I proved they could shoot better than they were I could get them to let me change their set up. Most were shooting too long of a draw length, improperly set peep sights, the wrong arrows and poorly tuned bows. They didn’t always shoot better than 3 inches right away, but they all agreed the bow “felt” better at full draw, in turn making them more confident. "
Paul
Pick any bow and put it in a shooting machine. Pick any quality arrows that are consistant from arrow to arrow. They will all shoot to pretty much the same spot. What does this tell me? It has more to do with the guy plucking the string than equipment he is using.
Here is some text that I posted some time ago in another post about tuning. It's long and boring but it explains my veiws on tuning. As Frank knows I am not afriad of a long post
. This doesn't fit the complete context of this post, but I feel it relates. This was actually an argument I was having with someone about someone tuning their bow. I have edited slightly to make it less scathing (and make me look like less of an ass[]). I'm not even sure it was on this site, but it probably was.Well here goes, happy reading.
"
I will state that when I speak of tuning Iam talking about target shooting and mostly at fixed distances, not different yardages. However I have never really experienced the problem with different impact points as I move back in yardage. At least not any that I couldn’t fix by touching up my sight adjustment. I like to set my windage from the furthest distance I can shoot well. After doing this I am normally right on when I move up to 20 yards. No rest adjustments required to get my windage correct. From what I have seen this problem is usually caused by form problems like canting the bow or grip problems. You are really just adjusting the rest to fit your shooting style.
I am in no way saying that tuning is not important and you shouldn’t bother with it. Getting your arrow to leave the bow in the straightest line never hurts, and is a great advantage using fixed blade heads. But like I said, shooting field points with adequate fletching at normal distances just isn’t that complicated. All the tuning in the world isn’t going to fix 6 to 8 inch groups at 20 yards. And leading someone to believe otherwise is just filling their head with miss information. This poor guy will be dinking with his bow until he gives up. When in reality he probably just needs to learn to shoot better and get his bow to fit him properly. Then he can worry about tuning it to be more forgiving and accurate.
Here are some quotes about tuning and its place in archery. In some cases these quote are condensed versions of the actual text in order to make my obscenely long post a bit shorter. I have tried to keep the original context of the message as close to the point as it can be. I know I hate it when I am quoted out of context.
From the book Idiot Proof archery from Bernie Pellerite:
“Most archers think bow tuning is the most important part of accuracy. Nothing could be farther from the truth! In theory bow tuning plays absolutely no role in accuracy. This is easily proven if you have access to a good shooting machine. A shooting machine is capable of putting every arrow in the same hole.”
“I know some of you must be thinking I am anti tuning. Not at all! I believe that bow tuning is an essential part of good archery. We are human beings not machines, and only humans need to tune a bow. Tuning simply tries to counteract the influence that a flaw in our execution has on the arrow’s impact. The only reason for bow tuning is to improve our bad shots; our good shots all go where we aim any way. And, as for our really bad shots… tuning won’t help much at all.”
“The key here is to understand that in theory, tuning is not related to accuracy. Tuning is related only to bow performance and forgiveness… accuracy is related to consistent execution of form. Therefore, the more consistent we are in our form, the more accurate we will be.”
These are some quotes from Bob Ragsdale’s questions and answers page:
“Don't be obsessed with "tuning" because that is NOT where accuracy comes from. If you can shoot "perfect" paper test holes at 8 and 25 feet then you are already WAY ahead of the average archer who is probably more accurate than you, but has never run a test of any kind and is nowhere near as good on spine as you.”
“A bow has to have an extremely incorrect arrow spine and/or be dramatically miss-aligned within the bow to 'not group' relatively well. So we'll take the attitude here that you are NOT doing one or all of these 3 things; A. Not allowing the bow to recover identically each time; B. Not pointing the bow in the right direction each time; C. Not using identical ammunition each time.
A. A bow only does one thing for a living; it goes back to the rest position from full draw. It has no brain, can make no decisions and is not “out to get you”. This means that IF it is put in the same situation each time at full draw it has NO CHOICE except to return to the normal rest position in an identical fashion each time (i.e. if you hold the handle or the string differently or release the string differently in any fashion it cannot be expected to make an identical return trip or for the sight references or arrow alignment within the bow to remain correct).
B. At the instant the arrow nock leaves the string the shot is OVER; in the sense that the arrow is now completely on it's own and you either POINTED IT IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION (windage & elevation) OR YOU DID NOT. So you will either HIT or you will MISS because if it (i.e. if your windage and distance sight settings were not exact, or, if you torqued the grip, or, released the string at a different rate or angles, or, did not have the sight held perfectly steady on the exact target, or, if the rear sight was not properly aligned (did not take a correct sight picture) with the front sight. Aggravated even further if there was a different-manner hold or release of the string and/or a handle torque effect to cause the bow to rotate differently during recovery to an unknown sighting point wen the arrow is still on the string.
C. No 'good shot' rifleman would ever expect to shoot tight groups with several different bullet types and bullet weights by mixed manufacturers. Archers tend to think arrows are magic and always shoot perfectly, (maybe it's a fletching thing) but that's far from the truth. If one does not NUMBER THE ARROWS and 'call' the shots where they should have hit and record them and then make other notes while setting up they will waste a lot of time and effort assuming each arrow shoots identically. Point is that you shouldn't panic and make an assumption and then change based on one shot, but 'everyone' does it.”
There are many more statements like this on his site, but I figured that was the one that summed it up the best.
This is what Matt Cleland has to say about tuning in his paper he wrote about shooting the compound bow for FITA. Most know of Bernie and the Ragsdales, Matt is a local archer (Swanton Ohio) that runs an archery shop in his family’s gun store. He holds several world, national and regional archery records in indoor and out door target events. (outdoor long distance shooting up to 90 meters) With recurve and compound with both fingers and release aids. He was also on the U.S. archery team from 1998 to 2001. He gives private lessons and teaches at a local college. He is also an avid hunter.
In his 180 paragraph, 13 page paper he dedicates one paragraph to tuning. The rest is about equipment, form, aiming and the mental game. This is the paragraph about tuning:
“Equipment summary-Tune the bow for the best flight that is possible without putting too much time into it. This tuning should take less than one hour. Once decent arrow flight is achieved take the bow out to 90 or 70 meters and shoot for groups. If the bow shoots vertical groups move the nockset up and down in small amounts until nice round groups are achieved. If the bow shoots horizontal groups move the arrow rest left and right until nice round groups are achieved. Use this procedure to tune the bow then forget about it. Once this is done, focus on the mental game and practice routine. If an archer spends a lot of time worrying about the equipment and tinkering with it, his or her scores will not be what they are capable of. Worrying about equipment will not allow an archer to shoot confident shots. Remember: the one who shoots the most practice arrows usually wins.”
Ok, now about the professional archers that have won things or set records with out of tune bows. These incidents are also from the Idiot Proof Archery book mentioned above.
Bernie talks about several tuning myths and what it can and can't do for you. He states a few instances of people shooting very well with out of tune bows and bows that are not forgiving or set up properly.
One of them being Tom Crowe who is a professional target and 3-d archer. He set the vegas record for the only perfect 300 ever shot in the Bowhunter Freestyle division. And he did it with a high let off hunting bow with 5 inches of overdraw, a fletchhunter wrist style release, over spined short arrows and what everyone thought was too long of a draw and bad form. Plus his arrows were fishtailing 6 to 8 inches on the way to the target. Yet all of his arrows landed in a hole the size of nickel.
Another was Terry ragsdale in 1978. A quote from Bernie “Terry and his wife Michelle, are arguably the best target archers to ever shot a compound bow.” And the above mentioned Bob ragsdale is Terry’s father and I would assume his coach, not mention a pretty decent archer himself. He also spent many years working for PSE designing and testing bows.
Terry shot the only perfect 1200 ever recorded in Vegas and it has never been duplicated since (except by himself). By the end of the tournament he discovered that the bow string had five broken strands directly under the nock. When Terry got home he had heard rumors of a “new” Process called paper tuning (1978 remember). He shot the same arrows used in the tournament through the paper. He flunked the new test with a high left 5 inch rip in the paper. This probably would have prevented him leaving the house if he had done it before the tournament. He duplicated that feat at Cobo Hall in Detroit a month later. He did all this with a PSE Citation that had such cam lean it looked like the string would jump off the track. He also adds that most all of the indoor Vegas target records (perfect 900) were set with old style non center shot riser bows. Including the two 1200s shot by Terry ragsdale.
He also talks about a woman that won a state championship with her two wheel bow so far off it had two separate valleys. One at 28 inches and another at 31 inches! Since she couldn’t draw it that far she never knew about it. Yet she won a state championship with it? I guess she must have had good enough form to draw it to the same spot every time.
I don’t consider myself to be that great of an archer, but I feel I am better than the average hunter. Only because I practice more. I don’t compete nor do I have any desire to. I tried it once a few years ago and didn’t care for it. I don’t even keep score when I golf. I just do it because I enjoy it (I suck at golf by the way but it’s still fun with the right people). I don’t have any trouble holding a one or two inch group at 20 and 30 yards consistently, regardless of how my bow is tuned or the type of arrows I use. However I have seen really good archers shoot much better than I can using a long bow with no center shot, or rest for that matter. Not to mention using fingers and no sights. It’s because they are GOOD, period! Not because their bow is tuned better than mine, there is nothing to tune except spine and nocking point.
So this is where I come to the conclusions and opinions I have on tuning. I do believe tuning and micro tuning have their places. I just feel that most archers don’t shoot well enough to achieve it or benefit from it. It’s mostly in their heads. Having a well tuned bow and perfectly spined arrows can mean the difference between shooting X’s and breaking the line. It will not however make an archer that shoots 8 inch groups suddenly start breaking nocks arrow after arrow. Neither will switching to a drop a way rest or other fancy equipment.
The number one most important thing is that your bow fits you and is comfortable to shoot. Then concentrate on form and proper shooting technique. After that is mastered you can worry about tuning and tweaking things to eek out more accuracy. I have taken guys that couldn’t shoot 8 inch groups at 20 yards and had them shooting 3 inch groups at 30 without even changing their set up. Mostly they had poor or no anchor points and very bad grip. Then when I proved they could shoot better than they were I could get them to let me change their set up. Most were shooting too long of a draw length, improperly set peep sights, the wrong arrows and poorly tuned bows. They didn’t always shoot better than 3 inches right away, but they all agreed the bow “felt” better at full draw, in turn making them more confident. "
Paul
01-12-2007, 01:52 PM
#10
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern PA USA
Posts: 1,398
RE: An end to tuning?
Frank: You aren't on here very much any more, but that didn't stop you from making one of your excellent, thought provoking posts. I do think that tuning the archer is the last thing that most people are going to do, and until that happens, some or most of the other tuning is moot. Also, as Paul said, when the archer is tuned, it is possible to shoot a pretty horridly tuned bow (with target points) and still shoot with accuracy. That said, if taking care of tune the bow and tune the arrow is going to happen, I think it would be pretty expensive and not much fun for the average pro shop to keep in stock. IMHO, it would take the following.
1. Regardless of cam type, you would need draw length specific cams only. No draw length adjustment. Get fit by a qualified shop and then just shoot.
2. Binary, CPS type, or level nock travel single cam with a dual track idler system to minimize string stretch as a reason to tune or retune.
3. Integrated rest design, most likely a drop away to minimize shooter error.
4. Torque free grip.
5. Harness system of 452, Ultracam, etc. to eliminate stretch, as well as quality string/cable construction, which is just as important as the material. Nocking points and loops that don't wear out or move under any circumstances.
6. A bow sight that everyone likes. (Good luck with that one)
7. A matched set of arrows with each bow. This would probably need to be determined by the manufacturer of the bow through extensive testing, and giving the manufacturer enough data to set the centershot and rest height to allow for very good/excellent tuning out of the box.
8. A motivational, instructional, disciplinary DVD or video with each bow so that shooters would understand that there is nothing wrong with the bow, arrow, tune of the setup, it is the shooter, not the equipment.
9. Oh, and a lock on the bow that would not allow the shooter to shoot the bow unless the video was watched and logged in within 1 hour of attempting to shoot the bow again.
10. A taser like device that would shock the shooter if he/she attempted to make any adjustments without getting a specific passcode from the manufacturer.
11. A bow/arrow specific credit card that would only allow the repurchase of specific, manufacturer approved arrows or components.
12. An automatic 3, 6, or 12 month renewal policy for shooters who have become addicted to playing with new equipment so often, that they would quickly become bored if all they were allowed to do is shoot their bows, and not buy rests, sights, arrows, broadheads, fiddle with adjustments, etc.
13. Or, just set everything by eyeball, and use mechanicals.[8D]
Oops, almost forgot. Cams that don't tear up serving![&:]
1. Regardless of cam type, you would need draw length specific cams only. No draw length adjustment. Get fit by a qualified shop and then just shoot.
2. Binary, CPS type, or level nock travel single cam with a dual track idler system to minimize string stretch as a reason to tune or retune.
3. Integrated rest design, most likely a drop away to minimize shooter error.
4. Torque free grip.
5. Harness system of 452, Ultracam, etc. to eliminate stretch, as well as quality string/cable construction, which is just as important as the material. Nocking points and loops that don't wear out or move under any circumstances.
6. A bow sight that everyone likes. (Good luck with that one)
7. A matched set of arrows with each bow. This would probably need to be determined by the manufacturer of the bow through extensive testing, and giving the manufacturer enough data to set the centershot and rest height to allow for very good/excellent tuning out of the box.
8. A motivational, instructional, disciplinary DVD or video with each bow so that shooters would understand that there is nothing wrong with the bow, arrow, tune of the setup, it is the shooter, not the equipment.
9. Oh, and a lock on the bow that would not allow the shooter to shoot the bow unless the video was watched and logged in within 1 hour of attempting to shoot the bow again.
10. A taser like device that would shock the shooter if he/she attempted to make any adjustments without getting a specific passcode from the manufacturer.
11. A bow/arrow specific credit card that would only allow the repurchase of specific, manufacturer approved arrows or components.
12. An automatic 3, 6, or 12 month renewal policy for shooters who have become addicted to playing with new equipment so often, that they would quickly become bored if all they were allowed to do is shoot their bows, and not buy rests, sights, arrows, broadheads, fiddle with adjustments, etc.
13. Or, just set everything by eyeball, and use mechanicals.[8D]
Oops, almost forgot. Cams that don't tear up serving![&:]