Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.
11-11-2002, 10:38 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: O\'Fallon MO O\'Fallon, MO
Posts: 95
Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.
There is always going to be this debate over speed vs. loudness.
I try to minimize the things I can't control or estimate, it leaves room for error. When I draw back I want to be thinking about one thing, hitting where I am aiming, by having a fast set up I don't concern myself with aiming a little high or a little low, I put the dot on the deer & cut loose. I control the decision on when to shoot, i.e..... while deer is not suspicious or jittery, I can also control the fact that my arrow is going to get to that aiming point as quickly as possible. My brother is noise freak, so we did a little test.
With a high speed video camera from work & the annoying dog next door, I proceeded to put my target bag next to his kennel on my side of the fence. While he was just walking around & eating I would shoot, every time I shot he didn't look or react to the shot but he did react to the arrow hitting the target. When I shot while he was attentive & ears perked up he reacted to the bow. All shots were 30 yards @ 335 fps.
The exact same thing for my brothers Legacy, with all the fixens & heavy slow arrows, about 258 fps. He couldn’t believe the dog could hear his bow when he released, in fact I think he would have lied had we not had the tape.
PS. almost mist the target while making sure the video tape was recording.
Good judgment comes from years of bad judgment.
Edited by - AB Bow Hunter on 11/11/2002 11:39:53
I try to minimize the things I can't control or estimate, it leaves room for error. When I draw back I want to be thinking about one thing, hitting where I am aiming, by having a fast set up I don't concern myself with aiming a little high or a little low, I put the dot on the deer & cut loose. I control the decision on when to shoot, i.e..... while deer is not suspicious or jittery, I can also control the fact that my arrow is going to get to that aiming point as quickly as possible. My brother is noise freak, so we did a little test.
With a high speed video camera from work & the annoying dog next door, I proceeded to put my target bag next to his kennel on my side of the fence. While he was just walking around & eating I would shoot, every time I shot he didn't look or react to the shot but he did react to the arrow hitting the target. When I shot while he was attentive & ears perked up he reacted to the bow. All shots were 30 yards @ 335 fps.
The exact same thing for my brothers Legacy, with all the fixens & heavy slow arrows, about 258 fps. He couldn’t believe the dog could hear his bow when he released, in fact I think he would have lied had we not had the tape.
PS. almost mist the target while making sure the video tape was recording.
Good judgment comes from years of bad judgment.
Edited by - AB Bow Hunter on 11/11/2002 11:39:53
11-11-2002, 08:03 PM
#2
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Alvo Nebraska USA
Posts: 2,057
RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.
LOL! I can just imagine seeing AB Bowhunter and his brother strolling up to the neighbor's door with bows and arrows, a target bag and a video camera and tripod<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>. Knock Knock Knock.... Why hello Mister Wilson, Me and my brother would like to conduct a test with your dog.... If I knew you were going to do this I would have drove all the way to your house to watch<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>.
<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>.
11-11-2002, 11:22 PM
#3
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: O\'Fallon MO O\'Fallon, MO
Posts: 95
RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.
It is funny you mentioned that, tonight @ work we did a viewing of the tape, you have to have a special player to watch it or I would send a copy to you.
While we were doing this it seemed perfectly sound, & had a damn good argument to settle. But you are correct, because when our wives found out about it they didn’t see the humor or the reasoning behind it. My brother almost let the cat out of the bag on my Bow Tech rebate she didn’t know about. He doesn’t think on his feet real well. I guess that’s why he shoots a slow telephone pole slinger.
My dad said,” that was about as bright as when you two used the garden hose as a snorkel in the pond.”
Quick story, I & my brother wanted to walk on the bottom of our family pond, only about 20’ deep. So we ran two garden hoses through a big piece of deck styrofoam. One end sticking out of the styrofoam & the other end went in our mouths’. We then proceeded to tie cinderblocks on rope & wrap them around our shoulders to keep us down, & the goggles went on. Worst part about it was when we got down in the water it was so muddy we couldn’t see anything. Keep in mind we were only 10 & 13.
Good judgment comes from years of bad judgment.
While we were doing this it seemed perfectly sound, & had a damn good argument to settle. But you are correct, because when our wives found out about it they didn’t see the humor or the reasoning behind it. My brother almost let the cat out of the bag on my Bow Tech rebate she didn’t know about. He doesn’t think on his feet real well. I guess that’s why he shoots a slow telephone pole slinger.
My dad said,” that was about as bright as when you two used the garden hose as a snorkel in the pond.”
Quick story, I & my brother wanted to walk on the bottom of our family pond, only about 20’ deep. So we ran two garden hoses through a big piece of deck styrofoam. One end sticking out of the styrofoam & the other end went in our mouths’. We then proceeded to tie cinderblocks on rope & wrap them around our shoulders to keep us down, & the goggles went on. Worst part about it was when we got down in the water it was so muddy we couldn’t see anything. Keep in mind we were only 10 & 13.
Good judgment comes from years of bad judgment.
11-12-2002, 01:18 AM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,903
RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.
My curiosity is getting the best of me on this one!
How could you distinguish the fact he was reacting to the arrow hitting the target rather than the shot at 335fps?
Unless you had one helluva wide angle lens to cover the bow and the dog (at 30 yards) in the same frame<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle> And even then , a slow motion video doesn't compare to actual speed and the dogs reaction time.
At 335fps @ 30 yards , thats roughly 4 thousands of a second from bow to target. My guess would be the dog reacted to the shot but his reaction time indicated he was reacting to the arrow hitting the target.
Or was it your point all along that a fast bow compensates for noise?<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Edited by - bowfanatic on 11/12/2002 04:19:33
How could you distinguish the fact he was reacting to the arrow hitting the target rather than the shot at 335fps?
Unless you had one helluva wide angle lens to cover the bow and the dog (at 30 yards) in the same frame<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle> And even then , a slow motion video doesn't compare to actual speed and the dogs reaction time.
At 335fps @ 30 yards , thats roughly 4 thousands of a second from bow to target. My guess would be the dog reacted to the shot but his reaction time indicated he was reacting to the arrow hitting the target.
Or was it your point all along that a fast bow compensates for noise?<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Edited by - bowfanatic on 11/12/2002 04:19:33
11-12-2002, 11:48 AM
#6
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: O\'Fallon MO O\'Fallon, MO
Posts: 95
RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.
My brother was positioned to my left side & behind me, my target was just to the right or the dogs kennel. The video system we had was high speed video, which records more frames per second.
My point is more towards the fact that any animal that is on edge or jittery could reacted to the shot in time to string jump an arrow no matter how fast. In my mind it doesn’t matter what he was reacting to just the fact that when my arrow hit the target he had not moved his head, ears, tail or anything else, but while his ears were up & he was paying attention he would turn his head or start to hunker down a bit before the arrow hit the bag. He still would have had a hole in him. <img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle>
Keep in min we are not scientist just two Joe’s with some expensive video equipment. The long & short of the story is, shoot @ an animal when it is relaxed. The speed of an arrow may help, but the trajectory is more important for me, so I am not in the position of guessing high or low.
In my opinion there is no bow that is quiet enough that a deer will not hear it inside 30 yrds, whether the deer reacts or not is anyone’s guess. In our test it didn’t matter for the beagle he didn’t move enough to get out of the way or drop down, he just started to react when the arrow hit the bag. . I would guess a deer moves quicker than a dog but I don’t know. But if a dog started to react before the arrow hit @ 30 yrds I would guess a deer would also.
The test only shows that animals will react to sound differently while in different modes, if a buck is busy chasing tail around, I could fall out of my tree stand climb back up draw & hit my mark. An exaggeration of course but you get what I am saying.
<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Good judgment comes from years of bad judgment.
My point is more towards the fact that any animal that is on edge or jittery could reacted to the shot in time to string jump an arrow no matter how fast. In my mind it doesn’t matter what he was reacting to just the fact that when my arrow hit the target he had not moved his head, ears, tail or anything else, but while his ears were up & he was paying attention he would turn his head or start to hunker down a bit before the arrow hit the bag. He still would have had a hole in him. <img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle>
Keep in min we are not scientist just two Joe’s with some expensive video equipment. The long & short of the story is, shoot @ an animal when it is relaxed. The speed of an arrow may help, but the trajectory is more important for me, so I am not in the position of guessing high or low.
In my opinion there is no bow that is quiet enough that a deer will not hear it inside 30 yrds, whether the deer reacts or not is anyone’s guess. In our test it didn’t matter for the beagle he didn’t move enough to get out of the way or drop down, he just started to react when the arrow hit the bag. . I would guess a deer moves quicker than a dog but I don’t know. But if a dog started to react before the arrow hit @ 30 yrds I would guess a deer would also.
The test only shows that animals will react to sound differently while in different modes, if a buck is busy chasing tail around, I could fall out of my tree stand climb back up draw & hit my mark. An exaggeration of course but you get what I am saying.
<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Good judgment comes from years of bad judgment.
11-14-2002, 09:45 AM
#7
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Stockton NJ USA
Posts: 119
RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.
A friend of mine shoots in his backyard. He's an NFAA national champ in barebow and practices at 60 yards. Without getting too detailed, his dog reacted to the arrow flight (not the bow or the target).
I learned alot about bow noise when I bought a house with a basement and concrete walls. The sound bounces off the walls like you cannot imagine. My hunting bow is quiet and my target bow is a little bit louder when fired outside. I shot both in my basement and was shocked at how loud both bows were. After adding limb savers to both bows I can tell you truthfully ... no matter how quiet you think your bow is - add limb savers.
I learned alot about bow noise when I bought a house with a basement and concrete walls. The sound bounces off the walls like you cannot imagine. My hunting bow is quiet and my target bow is a little bit louder when fired outside. I shot both in my basement and was shocked at how loud both bows were. After adding limb savers to both bows I can tell you truthfully ... no matter how quiet you think your bow is - add limb savers.
11-14-2002, 10:30 AM
#8
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.
I played the speed game back in the 80's, back when we had no restrictions on poundage or arrow weights for 3D. We were regularly shooting setups over 85lbs, and shooting 210 grain arrows at over 340fps. We even had "fastest bow" contests pushing speeds to around 425fps. Parts were flying everywhere each weekend.What a great time.(Yes, we were retarded. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>) Thankfully the IBO put a stop to that nonsense with their 5g per lb ruling and max poundage of 80lbs before someone got killed.
Nowadays the only ones that are still getting their jollies with the speed game are ones that really do not know any better IMO. To get high speed, you must give up something for it, usually forgiveness. While it's great fun to see your bow go faster through a chrono than your buddies', realistically if the bow does over 280 it is suitable for 3D, and plenty fast enough to take game. Most every bow manufactured today can realistically generate those types of speeds. Speed will always continue to increase and we should accept it, but I think everyone is figuring out that it doesn't matter "how fast you go past" when pushing the envelope, and that is usually what happens when you shoot the sub 6" brace height "rat traps" that are very critical of any form errors, and currently the only geometries that will "push the envelope". Even Bowtech, the current masters of the speed game,(and really the only ones left who care about it-- why I don't know---marketing I guess) are now increasing brace heights and ATA lengths on their speediest bows for more forgiveness. Gotta walk before you can run.
Bottom line is that it is fun to "play" with the speed, but you have to be able to control it and keep the noise level down if you want to hunt and be as accurate as you can be at our sport. If you want to play the 3D game (the only other reason one would ever need or want the speed) the noise level doesn't really matter, and it is a good way to distract your competition!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Back when we were shooting those insane weights and arrows out of our cast riser bows, everyone not shooting would normally be taking cover behind something "just in case" anyway, and one could definately hear a bow go off within a hundred yards or so!(sometimes much further!) <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 11/15/2002 10:01:51
Nowadays the only ones that are still getting their jollies with the speed game are ones that really do not know any better IMO. To get high speed, you must give up something for it, usually forgiveness. While it's great fun to see your bow go faster through a chrono than your buddies', realistically if the bow does over 280 it is suitable for 3D, and plenty fast enough to take game. Most every bow manufactured today can realistically generate those types of speeds. Speed will always continue to increase and we should accept it, but I think everyone is figuring out that it doesn't matter "how fast you go past" when pushing the envelope, and that is usually what happens when you shoot the sub 6" brace height "rat traps" that are very critical of any form errors, and currently the only geometries that will "push the envelope". Even Bowtech, the current masters of the speed game,(and really the only ones left who care about it-- why I don't know---marketing I guess) are now increasing brace heights and ATA lengths on their speediest bows for more forgiveness. Gotta walk before you can run.
Bottom line is that it is fun to "play" with the speed, but you have to be able to control it and keep the noise level down if you want to hunt and be as accurate as you can be at our sport. If you want to play the 3D game (the only other reason one would ever need or want the speed) the noise level doesn't really matter, and it is a good way to distract your competition!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Back when we were shooting those insane weights and arrows out of our cast riser bows, everyone not shooting would normally be taking cover behind something "just in case" anyway, and one could definately hear a bow go off within a hundred yards or so!(sometimes much further!) <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 11/15/2002 10:01:51
11-15-2002, 02:08 PM
#9
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Memphis TN USA
Posts: 3,445
RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Even Bowtech, the current masters of the speed game,(and really the only ones left who care about it-- why I don't know---marketing I guess) are now increasing brace heights and ATA lengths on their speediest bows for more forgiveness. Gotta walk before you can run.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
No offense, but I don't know why the BowTechs "erk" you so bad but I do know you throw a little elbow into the ribcage every chance you get(well OK I understand because Mattews does me the same way<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>). That being said you might as well get geared up for the BowTechs being around for a while. I have one question though. At what point in your transition from the speed game of the 80's to the PW12 of today did speed become a bad thing. I mean as long as you don't sacrifice shootabilty(and Bowtech doesn't). If you have two bows that are almost identical in A to A length, brace heigth, both have good transitions into the draw force curve, and neither try to rip your arm off when you creep, what makes the faster of the two bows inferior. Which basically is all Bowtech is doing. BowTech is basically saying hey we can make a bow just as smooth as yours and just as shootable as yours BUT we'll throw in an extra 15fps to boot. If all the shootable characteristics are there then what's wrong with throwing in some speed to go along with it?
PS I don't know what kind of setups everyone else uses but I am barely cracking 280's with my Patriot at 29.5 inches and 70lbs with a 390-400 gr. arrow and a string loop, kisser button, and string whispers. I have yet to shoot anything other than a BowTech that will crack the 280's for me with this same arrow and string configuration. I can say from shooting the majority of the other bows out there that it simply isn't realizable without a bow that will shoot 315-320 IBO(through the chrono). I personally would want to shoot an arrow that is any lighter than the one I currently shoot.
Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal."
Edited by - silentassassin on 11/15/2002 15:13:09
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
No offense, but I don't know why the BowTechs "erk" you so bad but I do know you throw a little elbow into the ribcage every chance you get(well OK I understand because Mattews does me the same way<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>). That being said you might as well get geared up for the BowTechs being around for a while. I have one question though. At what point in your transition from the speed game of the 80's to the PW12 of today did speed become a bad thing. I mean as long as you don't sacrifice shootabilty(and Bowtech doesn't). If you have two bows that are almost identical in A to A length, brace heigth, both have good transitions into the draw force curve, and neither try to rip your arm off when you creep, what makes the faster of the two bows inferior. Which basically is all Bowtech is doing. BowTech is basically saying hey we can make a bow just as smooth as yours and just as shootable as yours BUT we'll throw in an extra 15fps to boot. If all the shootable characteristics are there then what's wrong with throwing in some speed to go along with it?
PS I don't know what kind of setups everyone else uses but I am barely cracking 280's with my Patriot at 29.5 inches and 70lbs with a 390-400 gr. arrow and a string loop, kisser button, and string whispers. I have yet to shoot anything other than a BowTech that will crack the 280's for me with this same arrow and string configuration. I can say from shooting the majority of the other bows out there that it simply isn't realizable without a bow that will shoot 315-320 IBO(through the chrono). I personally would want to shoot an arrow that is any lighter than the one I currently shoot.
Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal."
Edited by - silentassassin on 11/15/2002 15:13:09
11-15-2002, 02:20 PM
#10
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I played the speed game back in the 80's, back when we had no restrictions on poundage or arrow weights for 3D<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
PW, you are starting to sound like an old Grandpa, LOL..."Back when I was a kid, we didn't have no fancy shmancy carbon arrows...we had sticks..yeah sticks I found in the yard..by myself! I picked up sticks all damn day and night..in th SNOW! And we didn't have a lathe..we whittled 'em down ourselves...almost cut my finger off one time...Did I ever tell ya 'bout that? etc. etc.. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Even Bowtech, the current masters of the speed game,(and really the only ones left who care about it-- why I don't know---marketing I guess) are now increasing brace heights and ATA lengths on their speediest bows for more forgiveness. Gotta walk before you can run.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
With all due respect, your comment re: Bowtech is BS.Bowtech has had fairly high to quite high brace models since their inception. The Mighty Mite option one and two at 7.25 and 8.25" respectively,the Stalker at 7.75" , the Extreme Solo & G3 option two at 7", etc. just for the Y2K model year (their first). Bowtech has pretty much always given a choice between a higher and lower brace height. So now they raise brace heights and speeds and that's BAD? Seems to me like that's quite an improvement. Something no-one else is doing. The other manufacturers fastest models still are using 6" brace heights. When will people be happy? And if the increased speed DOES bug someone, there are things out there on the market called heavier arrows.
I disagree re: who is marketing speed. Look at just about everyone out there who advertises. Speeds are plastered all over the advertising. PSE was promoting their new 6" brace speedbow all of last year. Hoyt's sub 6.75" CyberTec, Martins Cougar XRG at 6 & 5/8", etc... Mathews has higher brace bows yes, but the ads post high speeds. Fact is,like it or not, speed sells (and it's beneficial too if used properly!). And everyone who is in a Marketing department, regardless of company,realizes that. If no-one else besides Bowtech cared about speed,why do they advertise speed ratings? Why would all of these manufacturers make bows that are faster? why not make all bows shoot the same speed? You seem to alway single out Bowtech for this, and I'm not sure what you're beef is with them (and you mention them often enough by name to make your feelings clear..And yep, I'm defending Bowtech here because I happen to like them, as well as stating general opinion regardless of manufacturer), but the facts are that EVERYONE does it barring a few small companies who do little to no advertising.
As I said on another thread recently, people need to start thinking out of the box. I mean that respectfully too.
Thinking out of the box tells me that I can now shoot less draw weight with a faster bow and generate as much or better energy for hunting than shooting a higher poundage slower model. Thinking outside the box makes me realize I can shoot heavier arrows at better speeds, for flatter trajectory (but not neccessarily laser-flat) and better energy as well, If I want to keep poundage the same.
I don't care what name is on the limbs. Facts are: times change, and while accuracy will always be king of the hill (regardless of what archery past-time you engage in) facts are also that back in the early to mid 90's has no bearing on what faster models are like today. That's apples and oranges. I shot many of those bows too. I shoot the fast ones of today from various companies..No comparison.
I realize everyone has their opinion, and I hope you know I respect yours, but I do not understand some of the blanket statements, singling out, and vast generalizations you are making here (on the boards in general) lately. Surely after all of your experience in archery you have learned that there are always exceptions to the rule, and nothing is ever absolute?
JeffB <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
I played the speed game back in the 80's, back when we had no restrictions on poundage or arrow weights for 3D<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
PW, you are starting to sound like an old Grandpa, LOL..."Back when I was a kid, we didn't have no fancy shmancy carbon arrows...we had sticks..yeah sticks I found in the yard..by myself! I picked up sticks all damn day and night..in th SNOW! And we didn't have a lathe..we whittled 'em down ourselves...almost cut my finger off one time...Did I ever tell ya 'bout that? etc. etc.. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Even Bowtech, the current masters of the speed game,(and really the only ones left who care about it-- why I don't know---marketing I guess) are now increasing brace heights and ATA lengths on their speediest bows for more forgiveness. Gotta walk before you can run.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
With all due respect, your comment re: Bowtech is BS.Bowtech has had fairly high to quite high brace models since their inception. The Mighty Mite option one and two at 7.25 and 8.25" respectively,the Stalker at 7.75" , the Extreme Solo & G3 option two at 7", etc. just for the Y2K model year (their first). Bowtech has pretty much always given a choice between a higher and lower brace height. So now they raise brace heights and speeds and that's BAD? Seems to me like that's quite an improvement. Something no-one else is doing. The other manufacturers fastest models still are using 6" brace heights. When will people be happy? And if the increased speed DOES bug someone, there are things out there on the market called heavier arrows.
I disagree re: who is marketing speed. Look at just about everyone out there who advertises. Speeds are plastered all over the advertising. PSE was promoting their new 6" brace speedbow all of last year. Hoyt's sub 6.75" CyberTec, Martins Cougar XRG at 6 & 5/8", etc... Mathews has higher brace bows yes, but the ads post high speeds. Fact is,like it or not, speed sells (and it's beneficial too if used properly!). And everyone who is in a Marketing department, regardless of company,realizes that. If no-one else besides Bowtech cared about speed,why do they advertise speed ratings? Why would all of these manufacturers make bows that are faster? why not make all bows shoot the same speed? You seem to alway single out Bowtech for this, and I'm not sure what you're beef is with them (and you mention them often enough by name to make your feelings clear..And yep, I'm defending Bowtech here because I happen to like them, as well as stating general opinion regardless of manufacturer), but the facts are that EVERYONE does it barring a few small companies who do little to no advertising.
As I said on another thread recently, people need to start thinking out of the box. I mean that respectfully too.
Thinking out of the box tells me that I can now shoot less draw weight with a faster bow and generate as much or better energy for hunting than shooting a higher poundage slower model. Thinking outside the box makes me realize I can shoot heavier arrows at better speeds, for flatter trajectory (but not neccessarily laser-flat) and better energy as well, If I want to keep poundage the same.
I don't care what name is on the limbs. Facts are: times change, and while accuracy will always be king of the hill (regardless of what archery past-time you engage in) facts are also that back in the early to mid 90's has no bearing on what faster models are like today. That's apples and oranges. I shot many of those bows too. I shoot the fast ones of today from various companies..No comparison.
I realize everyone has their opinion, and I hope you know I respect yours, but I do not understand some of the blanket statements, singling out, and vast generalizations you are making here (on the boards in general) lately. Surely after all of your experience in archery you have learned that there are always exceptions to the rule, and nothing is ever absolute?
JeffB <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>