The Stinger has over 8" of brace, I think it is over 8.25" even.

Edit- Sorry, I was busy typing while others posted!

Having said that,I have to respectfully disagree with you Jeff on this one.(sorry!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) &quot;Shortness&quot; of ATA has little to do with the amount of shock or vibration a bow exhibits, that is all within the overall designed geometry of the bow itself. A longer ATA of the same drawlength normally has a shorter powerstroke which imparts less energy, therefore you can &quot;get away&quot; with (and why you normally see) a shorter brace height on them,(more speed, short bows are fast due to their longer stroke) and one that will still have the same amount of overall vibration and shock. I agree if they are of the same design and brace height but have different ATA, the longer one will exhibit less vibration normally. On shorter ATA bows, most of the time you will see designs built on this smaller platform with brace heights in excess of 7+&quot;,(Mighty Mite, Hunter's Quest) and in some instances over 8+&quot;. (Stinger, or even the Mathews MQ 32<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>!) These deeper-brace bows offer little shock because their overall powerstroke is roughly the same as a longer ATA bow with lesser brace. The only remaining differential between the two bows is then the mass weight, and while yes, I agree that mass weight does help in reduction of vibration and shock, if the bow is designed for elimination of said shock and vibration to begin with(parallel limb design, which most short ATA bows now utilize) then the differences will be relatively minor unless it has an ultra-short brace height.(Tech 29 @6.5&quot; for instance) That is why you get vibration from that particular bow as you stated above. Won't see that type of vibration from a deeper-brace short ATA.(Mighty-Mite is better, yah? Of course it is! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>)

I know, it's all about the speed.....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

I personally recommend over 7&quot; brace height on all bows for the average to intermediate archer, (no matter what the ATA) and on shorter ATA bows, &quot;deeper is better&quot; is the general rule of thumb. More experienced archers can of course get away with lesser brace heights due to their better form and lesser chance of form errors. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12





Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 11/03/2002 17:05:23

So let me see if I have this correct Kevin....

...If Bow A and Bow B are identical in every aspect except for the axle to axle length then the shorter bow will have more noise and vibration...correct? Unless, that is, if the shorter bow has a larger brace height or has a design, whether it be riser or limbs, that would promote energy dissipation more so than the longer axle to axle length bow.

Would that be an accurate summation of your last post?

PW,
I'm very much aware of the facts you presented and I agree with you, however my comment was not geared towards AtoA specifically but the amount of riser available to soak it up..should have been more clear (I've been posting here and there when I've had a break from son's 3rd B-day party)...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

The T-29, MM,stinger and DOA have less mass than the new generation of short A2A bows like the Legacy, PAT, Enforcer, etc which exhibit extremely low shock and recoil...so things ARE changing...

Do not also forget that the Bowtechs (as well as many other brands/models) use a &quot;full grip&quot; which will dampen any felt vibration in the hand...the diamonds AFAIK shoot off the spine of the riser and use sideplates, and do not have something similar to the ST pockets to &quot;take the edge off&quot;.

Of course there ARE exceptions: the MQ32/SQ2 being two that are very low shock as well as light weight...they are also slower than molasses (less stroke, softer cam)..certainly not in the same class as the abovementioned bows which use a much harder cam (the PF cam).

I still do not find it surprising though that there is some shock on a superlightweight high brace bow with the PF cam..Shoot a BT Stalker right out of the box with it's near 8&quot; brace, 33 &quot; AtoA, and featherweight riser. Certainly it's tame-able when set up, but out of the box (As the Diamond in question was shot), it's definitely there.

JeffB <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>












Edited by - jeffB on 11/03/2002 17:37:34

Pinwheel the cam very well might have been out of position but I have never shot a bow that had that much vibration. I know on my Patriot if the cam is out of position it makes the bow have alot of &quot;kick&quot; on the shot. The MM I compared it doesn't have the grip on it just bare riser. I hope the shop get somemore if the stingers or any other Diamonds so I can see if this was just a fluke, they appear to be very well built bow.

OOH....No I am not a Bowtech plant like matt jeff and BTS....

or am I????????????????????????????<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Bravo gentleman- excellent posting.

After reading the latest on the ata vs. brace height vs. forgiveness I am now considering the Diamond Undertaker which he has in stock in a full camo model at a lower price than the rest.
It's 33&quot; ata, 8&quot; brace height with a respectable speed of 309fps. Although not a barnburner it is only 3fps slower than the stinger and 9fps less than the hornet.
With an 8&quot; brace height and ata of 33&quot; I think I would get the best of both worlds as far as forgiveness in a shorter bow than my current Z-light.

I peeked through the window yesterday after work (as he was closed) and saw one of the diamonds with a $425.00 sale price tag on it, but couldn't tell which model it was. He has a big sign out front stating &quot;all bows $50.00 over cost&quot;. Getting desperate???

I am still considering the hornet though and will visit him today or tomorrow and see what he can do about ordering one.
Thanks again for the expert advice!!

Frank-

Yes, that would be an accurate summation.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Jeff-

I agree with you on some of your points, the ST pockets do help dampen vibration, but realistically IMO nothing more than a pair of limbsavers would do on another bow to be honest, as it is still a metal-to-limb contact. Now, if Bowtech was to utilize some sort of navcom/rubber/whatever membrane under the limb and on top of the ST pocket, and install some other type of dampener in the top of the riser similar to what Mathews and Martin and others are doing, THEN they'd have something. (HMMM, wonder how much Kev Strother will give me for that if I mention it to him at the AMO show? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>)

The &quot;full grip&quot; doesn't do much except warm the hand IMO, and does little to stop any vibration from going to the shooter as it is not navcom/rubber/whatever.(?? another idea to sell Kev!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) The sideplate design has a much more comfortable grip for most shooters. To be honest I think most people take the grips off of the Bowtechs anyway cause they have been terrible since day one. I know I did when I was shooting the G-3. To be fair I heard thru the grapevine they are working on this and plan on fixing them.

I also feel Diamond could improve on their overall design by adding similar dampener systems to help with vibration, seeing as they are using the same basic cam platform it would indeed be wise.

You are also correct about the softer cams and slower speeds, but &quot;pure&quot; hunting bows are now designed to be quiet, and shoot at about 20-30 yds normally. Doesn't matter how fast you go past, matters how accurate you are when hunting. Throw an 8&quot; brace on those bows, give 'em some dampeners, limb savers, whatever, full parallel design, an viola, quieter bow that has decent speed anyway. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Big Country25--

Yes, it would be interesting to see how you feel the vibration fares if you tried other models.

Final thoughts, then have to go to work---

I feel there are few bows out there that cannot be tamed nowadays to be completely comfortable in hand, even the super-aggressive twin cams. Why? Everything nowadays is built with tighter tolerances, keeping MOST bows from being &quot;sloppy&quot; and creating alot of undue vibration. Their geometries and designs are also light-years ahead of what bows were back 10-20 years ago, and designed to help in that respect too. Both manufacturers and accessories companies make it very easy for us to set-up our bows to be as quiet and shock-free as we want, certainly quiet enough to hunt with.

I know one thing, when I'm hunting and drawing on a big 10 pointer or Black Bear or whatever, the last thing I am worrying about is &quot;vibration at the shot&quot;. I'm worrying about where the arrow will hit. And when target shooting, I really could care less how much noise my bow makes! In fact, the more it makes, the more it bothers my competitors, and this gives me an edge! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Yes, it is nice(a luxury) to have them super-quiet, but not a true necessity as long as they are quiet enough not to spook game at the shot. Doesn't matter as long as it goes into the X or double-lung. Way too much emphasis being put on this dampening &quot;trend&quot; we're going thru, IMHO.

Just my own thoughts, have a great day! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Pinwheel 12



Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 11/04/2002 08:38:23

DaveC,

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Diamond Undertaker which he has in stock in a full camo model at a lower price than the rest.
It's 33&quot; ata, 8&quot; brace height with a respectable speed of 309fps <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

This sounds like an excellent choice to me based on the specs you listed. A good compromise in terms of A to A, brace height and speed. These are basically the specs that I look for in a good hunting bow.

Pinwheel,

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Way too much emphasis being put on this dampening &quot;trend&quot; we're going thru, IMHO<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

I remember that you posted before about the &quot;single cam trend&quot; and the &quot;short axle to axle length trend&quot;....Is there anything in archery today that isn't a trend? I ask that sincerely as I could definitely interpret some of the more &quot;traditional&quot; style compounds, aka 10 year or older size/style compounds as a trend as well. What would you characterize as the differences between a trend and something that is here to stay?

Frank-

You are correct in that Archery is ever-evolving, and that everything is a &quot;trend&quot; at one point or another. However, some things &quot;stay&quot;, and some do not. Twin cams have definately made their mark, and have realistically been altered little in 30 years except for the introduction of the hatchet cam and built-in wallbangers. The design has stood the test of time, and that is the only way we can really tell if something is here to stay or not. I can only make my &quot;predictions&quot; through my years of experience in the industry. (and of course my trusty crystal ball! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>) None of us have all of the answers unless we can see into the future,(gotta get you one of them crystal balls, my friend! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>) so we must look to how the history of fads and trends has been and what direction archery is heading to try and make an educated guess as to where it will go from here.

Conventional solos, for instance, have had many gremlins associated to them since their introduction, and manufacturers are now looking towards hybrid designs which will replace them. You will continue to see this trend in coming years, I'm sure of this. I consider the conmventional solos a &quot;fad&quot; that came on strong, but is not something that is here to stay.

Same with ultra-short ATA's IMO. Altho I shoot one(31&quot and love it for treestand work, the majority of bowhunters are looking for a dual-purpose bow, something a little longer (33-36&quot and with a little more brace, so they can not only use it for hunting, but for an occasional 3D as well. The longer ATA is more fiorgiving, and this seems to be where hunters are heading to as they become more educated about what is truly needed for practical hunting applications. I see these ultra short bows becoming a true &quot;niche&quot; bow, and eventually will more than likely fall by the wayside in favor of their slightly longer bretheren. (I'll still keep mine, but I have to call it as I see it)

Split limbs vs solid, machined risers vs cast, recurve limbs vs straight, reflex design vs deflex, as stated fads and trends are ever changing. This &quot;trial and error&quot; stage of newer designs and products simply helps us determine what works great and what does not, and altho we sometimes get all &quot;wrapped up&quot; in current designs, we must always keep an eye out for the next &quot;wave&quot; of things to come, and how they will effect our shooting and the industry.

I have still not found the &quot;perfect bow&quot;, and feel that is still a ways off. I do however feel we have come a long way, and as long as we as dealers and consumers do not let the industry &quot;sandbag&quot; and stagnate, there will be even better things coming in the future. I for one look forward to testing all new products, and continue my search for the &quot;perfect bow&quot;. Maybe someday! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

DaveC, 309 is still cookin', and putting out plenty of energy. Shoot the undertaker, if you like it, that is one heck of a bargain, and just as good a bow if not better than most priced considerabely higher than it. Of course if you are not crunched for cash and have some time on your hands, you could try to hold out for their introduction of the '03 bows, they are supposed to be coming out with some new stuff and cams... I'll be keeping my eye on them.

For the record, my hornet already had limbsavers on it when I first shot it, and it hand shock is not noticeable...

Rangeball, Crunched for cash? not yet. With the baby on the way- the wife says to get it now before it's out of the question. But then if I do I'll be guilted into buying her some &quot;great job delivering my first baby&quot; jewelry for the same amount.

I've been hunting with the same bow for 6+ years and just have the bug for a shorter more forgiving bow with a little more speed. If memory serves correctly my z-light came ibo'd at ~305 fps. But when mathews replaced my cracked limbs it would only crank up to 67#. Which is were I'm using it now.
I'm shooting a heavy carbon now at 252 fps because the lighter ones made my bow a lot louder even with the limb savers and doinker stabilizer. I was just hoping to gain some K/E so I could jump up to the 1 3/4+ cut mechanicals, although the 1.5&quot; I am using now (sidewinder) did a great job on the last deer I shot.

I guess I'll shoot the undertaker and the sniper he has on hand and see how much better they are than my z-light and reflex extreme. If I don't start drooling after the shot, I may just keep on shooting my old bow. But if the differance is very noticable I'll be leaving with the undertaker or ordering the hornet.

Thanks for all the help guys and I hope some other semi- lost individual has been able to use the advice you all have given to me.