Straightarrow

I for one, believe your tests probably resulted in very good advise for your customers. I don't doubt you found the forgiving bows, I just don't see from what you've written, that the reason can be attributed to the amount of reflex. You've described nothing about your research that would convince me that you isolated that factor. Maybe you simply didn't give us enough detail as to what you did.

Pinwheel 12

I know a bit about you Len, and I also believe that what you find in your tests are items that could work well for you and your customers.

I also contend that accuracy and forgiveness, is accuracy and forgiveness, regardless of whether you are carrying a camo bow into the field for hunting,or a tournament bow onto the range, makes no dif asone should always concentrate on choosing the correct bow for the application at hand, and----(you knew it was coming, LOL)each one of those bows will shoot the same IF of the same configuration of ATA, brace, and cam design---long shot, short shot, single shot, multiple shots, snap shot, uphill, downhill, backwards, or standing on your head, if a bow doesn't work, it doesn't work, and if it does, then it does. The human element becomes a factor as statedIMHO ONLY for personal preference, but the physics of a bow with the heel of your hand being one pivot point, and then implementing the quadrangle (I know I originally said triangle, my mistake) to show howeverything works, well I've definately gotta agree to disagree on this one.

But hey, that's OK...

Bottom line is shoot what you like---I have 4 deer in the freezer, and shot over 290 average 3D scores (on 300 games) all summer with what works for me... and honestly---- that is all that matters, right?Good shooting!

PABowhntr

We do, but I lost the link to it.

It should not come as that much of a surprise though for some folks. I remember a time on this forum and others when topics such as this as well as single versus dual cams, split versus solid limbs, carbon versus aluminum arrows brought about a sometimes heated but always informational debate.

I hate to walk in so late to a discussion such as this but I feel the need to at least share my own experiences. I do not have the time or experience represented by many of the individuals on this thread but I do believe that I have more than most. Personal experience has led me to believe that one cannot isolate factors such as axle to axle length or brace height into being single characteristics that directly affect how accurate or forgiving a bow is. As was mentioned by the others there really are not any bow configurations that vary by just one factor. Because of this it is very difficult to just isolate that factor and refer to it as the only answer to this issue.

Furthermore, I have always been on the side of the fence the promotes brace height as being the limiting factor in forgiveness or accuracy when all else is equal. However, it was probably presumptuous on my part to do so. Why? Because I was basing it strictly on my own experiences with the bows that I have owned and shot over the years. The conclusion I reached may be true to an extent but only when it applies to me and not necessarily the next person to make such a comparison between models. Again, why you ask? Because my personal tendencies and specifications are different from anyone elses'. Draw length, for example, plays a huge role in this discussion in my opinion. As Arthur made reference to earlier, having a longer draw length is somewhat of a form issue as well. A longer draw length does promote greater arrow speed but at some of a cost to forgiveness. With that issue in mind it should come as no surprise that I tend to shoot longer brace height bows more accurately. The longer brace height helps to somewhat negate the effects of the longer draw length by decreasing the bow's powerstroke.

Now, keep in mind I said "longer brace height bows" and not "short axle to axle length, longer brace height bows". That is an important distinction to make because, again, I believe different configurations make it difficult to isolate one factor over another. I do enjoy shooting the shorter axle to axle length bows because of their portability and maneuverability but under no circumstance would I say that a short axle to axle length, long brace height bow is more accurate than a longer axle to axle length model with the same level of brace height. The tricky part comes into play when you try to compare a shorter bow with a long brace height and a longer bow with a short brace height. Again, personal experience leads me to believe that it boils down to the individual shooter and that generalizations cannot really be made.

On the issue of the riser geometry.....This factor obviously plays a part in this same discussion because it cannot be trully isolated from brace height and even, to some extent, axle to axle length. How much of a factor it is I am not qualified to comment on simply because I have very limited experience with deflex riser bows. I have a diffcult time totally discounting it though as it is too often connected with the other two factors in question.

Lastly, we have not even begun to touch on other issues. These factors do not exist within a vacuum. If we are to discuss these in comparison to one another and forgiveness then the issue of cam design must also be discussed. I think back to Len's post comparing the 37.5 and 38 inch bows. How did the cam designs of each model affect the results of his comparison? Was it strictly the riser geometry that played such a huge role or did the cam designs also factor into the equation.

Sorry for further complicating the issue but these were the first thougths that came into my mind after reading through the 6 pages of this post.

Len in Maryland

Let's see if I can shed some light on a few questions.

First, Kevin relys on Merlin and triangles/quadrangles (I wish he'd get his angles right). I rely on Hoyt andcircles (the basis of atoms to the universe). You'll have to think about that one. I think it was BigJ12 who touched on this subject.

I will repeat again that I look at deflex/reflex design as a major criteria in selection of bows for me or my customers; but, it is not the only factor. For instance, if a customer is a newbie, I definitely will steer him/her away from any speed bow (high reflex). The next consideration for that customer would be draw length verses ATA and the last thing I consider (mostly because of how I teach form) is the brace height. If I can give any customer a higher BH without jeopardizing other criteria, I'll do it. Yes, I take things like BH and ATA into account when doing comparisons.

Again, machine and tournament shooting is totally different than hunting. Coincidentally, this is part of the subject of one of my seminars at the ATA Show this year. Some of the context has been slipped in here.

As far as the details of the years of testing that has been done, it would be unfair to some manufacturers to go into this detail. As far as the 37" and 38" ATA bows that I tested, they both had very similar cam configurations. The 37"ATA had higher BH and parallel limb design characteristics that many consider superior. But, the difference was real and can only be attributed to the large difference in deflex/reflex design. Andkeep in mind that my findingswere complimented by some of my customers with similar test criteria.

Quote: "...I have very limited experience with deflex riser bows." This is true of about 98% of the archery community - and it's a shame. We've been bombarded with bows designed for speed and this almost negates any deflex discussions. What I've been doing most of my testing on are bows in the 1.25 - 3.5".

Quote: "Bottom line is shoot what you like---I have 4 deer in the freezer,..."Got #15 this morning. Most of them went to the needy.

Straightarrow

As usual, we settled nothing, but at least we had some fun doing it. These discussions are good. They keep us thinking. I evolve as an archer and the points brought out on this forum have helped form some of my own opinions. I hope others find them useful too.

trestand

Straightarrow,I don't think this post was about "setteling"anything,just information and opinion.Of which,this has been an excellant post.I know I've enjoyed the responses.
Having said that,and with my experiance with shooting/owning alot of "high end" bows,it's going to take a stick of dynamite to blow me of of the bow I'm shooting.The biggest difference with this bow is the fact it has a 1 1/2 in. deflex.Over 90% of the bows I've owned have the appox.(same),ata,bh,lenght,speed.The only constant with all of them has been the shooter-me.
First,I am a hunter,who likes to happen to shoot 3-D.My form can be questionable at times,but in the controlled enviroment of a 3-D course,I'll stay in the 265-285 range,which is an improvement from the 230-250 scores.This,in my opinion and use,is directly a result of shooting a bow with a 1 1/2 deflex riser.Needless to say,this also has carried over into the field.
This post,with the thoughtful information and input,has,in my opinion,educated some of us in an area that is the least thought of(reflex-deflex),so that we all can make an informed decision on which bow is best suited for each archer.Thanks,Bob

By the way,In case you all want to know,I'm shooting a Hoyt V-Tech.....

Pinwheel 12

OK--

Firstly, I do not rely simply on whatever Merlin says is gospel,tho I am admittedly biased because alot of Merlins' theories coincide with my own---after allI do workclosely with them and we think alike---remember toothat altho I do not have my fullresume posted for all to see, that Ialso have been around this industry a long time, have my own mind,andhave "been there and done that" on not only the business/technical end but the shooting end too.Most everyone knows I own and/or operate 3 full time archery businesses---one National Distributorship, one Pro shop, and one internet business. I do tons ofhands-ontesting, and currently work R&D for Merlin with Ben Jonesin addition to being CEO of their USA offices. I am a former IBO World Champion, and avid bowhunter, and have been on 4 factory Staffs during my years in the sport.I have certificates frommany schools andseminars. Ihave been approached many timestodo seminars myself, (even by you Len, to help you at the ATA, remember?) but unfortunately do not have thetime available.I also only have limited time each year to hunt,(about 14-18 days)and this gives up a big part of my person especially at this stage of my life--I would much rather be out in a stand or on the shootingline but again, simplynot enough hours in a day as duty calls... My entire life is based on archery as an industry, business,and sport--no "hobby" here gentlemen!Anyway--enough of all of that-- cause in allhonestly, I thinkall thathas no bearing whatsoever in this discussion anyway. Being the "biggest dog in the house" is notthe important thing here, but applying basic technical applications topertinent questions on a technical forum, is.. So---

Fact #1---Physicsrelies on a multitude of geometries-- not just circles, not just angles, but a combination of both and then some.Static and Dynamic testing recognizes many terminologies and measures them according to a standardized method or methods, otherwise we would be all over the place with no constants of any kind---we need these standards as a solid foundationin any area of engineering/technical appllication.

Fact #2--Everyone is of different physicalstructureand thus will come to varying finalizedconclusions based on their individual preferences once you get outside ofthose standards of testing and implement the human factor. One thing that is a constanthoweveris that forgiveness itselfis celebrated by4 major factors--Brace height, ATA,cam design, anddrawlength.I must againcontend that riser design itselfplays no factor if of the same physicalconfigurations because it is simplya rigid structure forward of the furthest forward pivot point.This is MY contention, not Merlins'. They just happen to agree with me and/or vice/versa.

Fact #3-- Len--You harvested way more deer than me,(you win! LOL)and if you keep it up there won't be any more deer left for next year! Oh BTW--I also gave to the needy---myfamily likes to eat thru the wintertoo.

StraightarrowI believe you were correct in that this was a good discussion in that people can gain alot of input from this thread and make an educated choice for themselves.

And to that, there is morework to be done, like usual.....

Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night--- I'm officiallydone on this one but it was fun to be able to drop by and state my views.. Len, great debate--I'll see you at the ATA like usual-- safe travel my friend.

Straightarrow

By "settlling", I meant that the information given by someone would be seen as correct, and the best opinion would be brought out. As usual, it's a little more complicated than that. I'm sure the original poster wanted an answer he could bank on. In fact, he may have gotten one, but no one knows for sure. No one is really looking for incorrect information or opinions that are wrong. And yes, there is a correct answer to his question, somewhere.

JOE PA

Obviously, it is pretty hard for anyone to tell the original post starter which Switchback would be more forgiving for him. If I'm not mistaken, the XT has the same riser as the original, but with different limb pocket angles, giving a slightly shorter ATA and slightly longer brace. The slight change either way can't make too much of a difference, though some will prefer one over the other like the occasional Mathews shooter found a preference for the Outback over the Switchback last year.
As far as the very interesting subject that is being discussed, only one contributor seems to be presenting scientifically collected test data to back up an opinion, yet most others on the thread are not buying it. As far as taking any info from this thread to the bank, good luck. Individual shooters are going to shoot better or worse for many reasons. I personally can't (for any length of time) shoot a bow without some valley to it. Yes, it is a form flaw, I know, but my damaged left shoulder can't deal with back tension shooting, despite years of 3-4 days a week of weight training. So I do think Frank's question about the cam type was relevant. It does seem to make a difference to me. I guess the answer could be to just get a bow with long ATA, long brace, and long, straight or deflexed riser all in one. Then all you would have to do is pull more weight to get speed, or learn to judge yardage much better than the next guy. With the current trend of parallel limbs/VFT, you are not going to see many straight or deflexed riser bows anymore. The buying public seems to be sold on that feel, and when everyone on just about any forum says those bow are shooting better than they have ever shot with more conventional bows, why should they not try them? I think an interesting test for this thread would be to compare the Switchback XT to the LD, which has much less reflex.

I may be wrong, but I don't think it is really possible to "settle this" because of so many different personal experiences. IMHO, a person must shoot a bow for a decent length of time to see how that bow is really going to work out for them. I can think of two bows I was intent on selling soon after I got them, and couldn't do so right away. Good thing I couldn't as they ended up being two of the better bows I have owned for a decent length of time.

I have done a mini version of what Len mentioned, that is, keeping a favorite bow and trying newer "better" bows against it until I came up with something I am sure is really better for me. Now that it seems I have found "the one", I'm not really looking for a replacement.

Len in Maryland

Joe:

Don't shut out that 'search' for a better bow. If you do you'll miss the wonderful advances in technology. I've been 'searching' since I opened my PRO Shop going on 15 years,and follow the same procedure year after year. Shoot a new bow for about 30-60 days, then put it down and go back to my old bow. At first I was getting new bows all the time. Now it's hard to find bows without those excessive reflexes. When I say 'excessive', I mean 2" and more.

Yes, the parallel limb technology has improved BH, which improves shooting accuracy for some. The negatives are that the ATA length gets reduced unless you increase riser length, and the speed gets reduced unless you increase reflex. If you want to get a longer ATA, you have to contend with a much heavier bow. Now, I like a heavier bow, but wasn't it a trend and a marketing venture a few years back for those 'lighter' bows??? How soon many forget about what was 'important' a few years ago. There are some bows out there with all the important 'features'. It's just that the 'need for speed' limits their production/marketing.

Kevin:

One of the conditions of several properties where I hunt is that I take a lot of deer. If I can't 'manage the herd', they'll find someone who can. Once I fill my freezer, it's then to a long list of names where I contribute the venison.

You're always welcome to attend or join me at one of my seminars. With our ability to 'agree to disagree' about many things, we would probably put on an interesting session.

Some day you may come to accept deflex/reflex as a design geometry.