What do you think is the all around best sporting dog?
07-12-2010 | 10:41 AM
#71
Spike
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
MUSTAD......
You do make valid points about them being overbred.
You say more kids are mauled by labs....Ok may be true, but a better and more accurate way to look at that, would be the percentage of labs that maul a kid. There are SO MANY MORE labs that if one in 100,000 had a reported incident, that would be more often then if 1 in 100 pitbulls had an incident.
Was gonna post a pic of my daughter and Beamer napping together or sleeping her first night in her big grirl bed but ..... when she had just elarned to crawl but gonna just say, that if a dog will let a toddler pry open its mouth to look at his teeth, take food out of his bowl to put in to the other dogs bowl and vice versa, pull on EVERY body appendage, and the response is a big lick across the face, I would say that is unconditional trust......
Just because a breeder is a well known breedeer doesn't make him a Responsible or ethical. I am sure there are bad breeders in other breeds as well, and just because one pup turns out poorly, you have never seen to attractive people with a homely child???? Evenwhen all odds are in your favor that does not eliminate the chance of a bad individual. You said nothing of appropriate health clearences btw....
So youo have a nice dog that impressed some lab people, good for you, I am glad that you have taken the time to develop your dog. I have a nice dog that impressed some GSP people on a pheasent hunt, good for me.
Because someone has never seen a dog do something does not mean anything. More then likely they think that dog should come trained, so they leave it in a kennel for ten months, then get it out during hunting season and are then embarrassed to hunt it with people who have taken the time to train the dogs. Says more about you (in a good way) as a dog trainer and them (likely in a negative way) then it does about their choice of breeds.....
BTW, maybe DOC E has it somewhere, but there have been actual studies of receptors in the nose of dogs, LABS have better noses then they are given credit for. Think of it this way, when a pointing breed smells scent they point, when a flusher gets scent they get birdy, if every time a flushing lab got birdy it instead went on point, how much credit for their nose would they get...... As mentioned earlier, you don't see setters in the airports or at the scene of a fallen building.
HUNTING---- AKA looking for something, don't need a gun to HUNT a lot of things, just need a gun for the shooting part.
You do make valid points about them being overbred.
You say more kids are mauled by labs....Ok may be true, but a better and more accurate way to look at that, would be the percentage of labs that maul a kid. There are SO MANY MORE labs that if one in 100,000 had a reported incident, that would be more often then if 1 in 100 pitbulls had an incident.
Was gonna post a pic of my daughter and Beamer napping together or sleeping her first night in her big grirl bed but ..... when she had just elarned to crawl but gonna just say, that if a dog will let a toddler pry open its mouth to look at his teeth, take food out of his bowl to put in to the other dogs bowl and vice versa, pull on EVERY body appendage, and the response is a big lick across the face, I would say that is unconditional trust......
Just because a breeder is a well known breedeer doesn't make him a Responsible or ethical. I am sure there are bad breeders in other breeds as well, and just because one pup turns out poorly, you have never seen to attractive people with a homely child???? Evenwhen all odds are in your favor that does not eliminate the chance of a bad individual. You said nothing of appropriate health clearences btw....
So youo have a nice dog that impressed some lab people, good for you, I am glad that you have taken the time to develop your dog. I have a nice dog that impressed some GSP people on a pheasent hunt, good for me.
Because someone has never seen a dog do something does not mean anything. More then likely they think that dog should come trained, so they leave it in a kennel for ten months, then get it out during hunting season and are then embarrassed to hunt it with people who have taken the time to train the dogs. Says more about you (in a good way) as a dog trainer and them (likely in a negative way) then it does about their choice of breeds.....
BTW, maybe DOC E has it somewhere, but there have been actual studies of receptors in the nose of dogs, LABS have better noses then they are given credit for. Think of it this way, when a pointing breed smells scent they point, when a flusher gets scent they get birdy, if every time a flushing lab got birdy it instead went on point, how much credit for their nose would they get...... As mentioned earlier, you don't see setters in the airports or at the scene of a fallen building.
HUNTING---- AKA looking for something, don't need a gun to HUNT a lot of things, just need a gun for the shooting part.
07-12-2010 | 05:55 PM
#72
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,195
Likes: 0
From: PA.
JP, i never said ole sproul is right.i only tell what i have seen.
here is good one.
today toby saw rabbit 20 yds from breezeway while i was sitting.
he froze and held point for 4 and 1/2 minutes, i timed him .then he slowly walked towards rabbit , 1 foot in air while other slowly went to ground.he covered about 6 yds very slowly.it took him about 7 minutes.then he froze again for 12 and 1/2 minutes, thats right over 12 minutes pointing.
then he went slowly about 4 yds .took him 3 and 1/2 minutes.
then he pointed again for 5 minutes.then he laided down and watched rabbit for 6 minutes,THEN HE CRAWLED SLOWLY TOWARDS RABBIT AND GOT TO ABOUT 5 YDS FROM IT WHEN IT RAN.YES CRAWLED.TOOK HIM 9 MINUTES.
toby is not POINTING LAB but i believe he has it in him.i believe if ole sproul knew how to TRAIN him to point on grouse, he would have.
in woods toby will not do this,only in my yard .he points birds/groundhogs/rabbits/snakes.why,because he knows if he FLUSHES those he will not get close to them.
but as i watch toby his nose most of time is too ground not up smelling air.
i hide a grouse wind 200 yds from my home.i dragged it with rope wearing rubber boots.
i hid toby in house so he did not know where i hid it.
i opened the back door, he knows i play this game.he shot out and found that grouse wing in 3 minutes,200 yds and found that grouse wing.
so, i do believe if you train a lab for ANTLER HE WILL FIND IT, SOMETHING KICKS IN.
take care sproul
here is good one.
today toby saw rabbit 20 yds from breezeway while i was sitting.
he froze and held point for 4 and 1/2 minutes, i timed him .then he slowly walked towards rabbit , 1 foot in air while other slowly went to ground.he covered about 6 yds very slowly.it took him about 7 minutes.then he froze again for 12 and 1/2 minutes, thats right over 12 minutes pointing.
then he went slowly about 4 yds .took him 3 and 1/2 minutes.
then he pointed again for 5 minutes.then he laided down and watched rabbit for 6 minutes,THEN HE CRAWLED SLOWLY TOWARDS RABBIT AND GOT TO ABOUT 5 YDS FROM IT WHEN IT RAN.YES CRAWLED.TOOK HIM 9 MINUTES.
toby is not POINTING LAB but i believe he has it in him.i believe if ole sproul knew how to TRAIN him to point on grouse, he would have.
in woods toby will not do this,only in my yard .he points birds/groundhogs/rabbits/snakes.why,because he knows if he FLUSHES those he will not get close to them.
but as i watch toby his nose most of time is too ground not up smelling air.
i hide a grouse wind 200 yds from my home.i dragged it with rope wearing rubber boots.
i hid toby in house so he did not know where i hid it.
i opened the back door, he knows i play this game.he shot out and found that grouse wing in 3 minutes,200 yds and found that grouse wing.
so, i do believe if you train a lab for ANTLER HE WILL FIND IT, SOMETHING KICKS IN.
take care sproul
Last edited by sproulman; 07-12-2010 at 06:06 PM.
07-12-2010 | 06:13 PM
#73
Typical Buck
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 811
Likes: 0
From: New England
MUSTAD......
You do make valid points about them being overbred.
You say more kids are mauled by labs....Ok may be true, but a better and more accurate way to look at that, would be the percentage of labs that maul a kid. There are SO MANY MORE labs that if one in 100,000 had a reported incident, that would be more often then if 1 in 100 pitbulls had an incident.
Was gonna post a pic of my daughter and Beamer napping together or sleeping her first night in her big grirl bed but ..... when she had just elarned to crawl but gonna just say, that if a dog will let a toddler pry open its mouth to look at his teeth, take food out of his bowl to put in to the other dogs bowl and vice versa, pull on EVERY body appendage, and the response is a big lick across the face, I would say that is unconditional trust......
Just because a breeder is a well known breedeer doesn't make him a Responsible or ethical. I am sure there are bad breeders in other breeds as well, and just because one pup turns out poorly, you have never seen to attractive people with a homely child???? Evenwhen all odds are in your favor that does not eliminate the chance of a bad individual. You said nothing of appropriate health clearences btw....
So youo have a nice dog that impressed some lab people, good for you, I am glad that you have taken the time to develop your dog. I have a nice dog that impressed some GSP people on a pheasent hunt, good for me.
Because someone has never seen a dog do something does not mean anything. More then likely they think that dog should come trained, so they leave it in a kennel for ten months, then get it out during hunting season and are then embarrassed to hunt it with people who have taken the time to train the dogs. Says more about you (in a good way) as a dog trainer and them (likely in a negative way) then it does about their choice of breeds.....
BTW, maybe DOC E has it somewhere, but there have been actual studies of receptors in the nose of dogs, LABS have better noses then they are given credit for. Think of it this way, when a pointing breed smells scent they point, when a flusher gets scent they get birdy, if every time a flushing lab got birdy it instead went on point, how much credit for their nose would they get...... As mentioned earlier, you don't see setters in the airports or at the scene of a fallen building.
HUNTING---- AKA looking for something, don't need a gun to HUNT a lot of things, just need a gun for the shooting part.
You do make valid points about them being overbred.
You say more kids are mauled by labs....Ok may be true, but a better and more accurate way to look at that, would be the percentage of labs that maul a kid. There are SO MANY MORE labs that if one in 100,000 had a reported incident, that would be more often then if 1 in 100 pitbulls had an incident.
Was gonna post a pic of my daughter and Beamer napping together or sleeping her first night in her big grirl bed but ..... when she had just elarned to crawl but gonna just say, that if a dog will let a toddler pry open its mouth to look at his teeth, take food out of his bowl to put in to the other dogs bowl and vice versa, pull on EVERY body appendage, and the response is a big lick across the face, I would say that is unconditional trust......
Just because a breeder is a well known breedeer doesn't make him a Responsible or ethical. I am sure there are bad breeders in other breeds as well, and just because one pup turns out poorly, you have never seen to attractive people with a homely child???? Evenwhen all odds are in your favor that does not eliminate the chance of a bad individual. You said nothing of appropriate health clearences btw....
So youo have a nice dog that impressed some lab people, good for you, I am glad that you have taken the time to develop your dog. I have a nice dog that impressed some GSP people on a pheasent hunt, good for me.
Because someone has never seen a dog do something does not mean anything. More then likely they think that dog should come trained, so they leave it in a kennel for ten months, then get it out during hunting season and are then embarrassed to hunt it with people who have taken the time to train the dogs. Says more about you (in a good way) as a dog trainer and them (likely in a negative way) then it does about their choice of breeds.....
BTW, maybe DOC E has it somewhere, but there have been actual studies of receptors in the nose of dogs, LABS have better noses then they are given credit for. Think of it this way, when a pointing breed smells scent they point, when a flusher gets scent they get birdy, if every time a flushing lab got birdy it instead went on point, how much credit for their nose would they get...... As mentioned earlier, you don't see setters in the airports or at the scene of a fallen building.
HUNTING---- AKA looking for something, don't need a gun to HUNT a lot of things, just need a gun for the shooting part.
The reason my dogs are what they are is mainly due to the strength in the breeding system. I am part of the system. We are a group of about 150 breeders that produce a whopping 100-150 pups per year. Almost every pup is tested to measure the level of natural hunting aptitude that was passed on genetically. They are also tested to determine if they possess what it takes to contriute further to the pool. The only people that get pups are hunters.
This is not an individual case or an exception. It is the norm. If you look at the good DD/GWP, DK/GSP, and other versatile breeders; it is a similar model. 20 years ago, I'd agree that these versatiles couldn't compete with a lab in the water. However, with the work the breeders have put into the system, you won't see a difference between a well bred continental and a lab in the water.
I never said that labs have bad noses. It's just that they're not pointing dogs, which I stand by. I did concede that some do point, but I have seen many breeds produce the occasional point. Two months ago, I saw a dachsund point a rabbit. Doesn't make it a pointing breed. I've seen english pointers and setters that don't point. Doesn't make them flushing breeds.
Have we beaten this dead horse enough yet?
Not sure I agree with your definition of hunting. I'd argue it, but I need to go hunt a book :-)
07-13-2010 | 11:10 AM
#74
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,313
Likes: 0
From: York, PA.
Is a retrieve required to have a qualifying score? Here is the purpose of dock dogs...
"Section 1.01 Statement of Purpose
(a) DockDogs is the independent governing and sanctioning body for regional, national and international Dock JumpingTM and Dock DivingTM, dog performance sports. DockDogs establishes the rules and standards of the sport, tracks results and records, supports and promotes the growth of its athletes, events, spectators, and sponsors."
Not sure I see anything that says it is focused towards hunting, but I may be mistaken. Go look at the purpose of organizations like NAVHDA, JGHV, VHDF, even AKC; and you'll see a much different focus.
Not to take anything away from dock dogs, but I spend more of my time focusing on hunting related activities than these games. I have enough venues that I can play in and volunteer enough of my time and my dogs time to help tag waterfowl and improve upland habitat that games like aren't really on my radar screen. They do seem fun though and are really fun to watch. Plus, it is much important for the improvement of the breed that we focus on hunting related activities to identify potential breed stock rather than allowing chance to guide decisions.
Please provide your source on this statistic. I'm still waiting for your previous sources as well. By the way, why do you call it antler hunting? Are you carrying a gun? Seems to me you're taking a walk with your dog trying to beat the porcupines to the sheds.
You're wrong that all hunt tests take place in a controlled environment and isn't hunting. Many of the tests I'm involved with are conducted on wild game in their natural environment. The problem surrounding this is twofold:
1. In most places, it is illegal
2. It takes a lot more time, especially the portions of the test where we are tracking hare.
And more kids are bit, mauled and killed by labs than any other sporting breed as well. Great pets.
I have no issue with labs. If you like them great. Personally, I think they are useless for me and despise them as pets. They shed way too much for me and I have never met a lab that I can trust unconditionally with my kids.
Plus, they are so overbred that there are way too many problems. My brother got a lab from a very well known breeder... Great lines, both parents hunted a ton... all in all a no brainer decision. His dog is crosseyed, overshot and was recently diagnosed with HD. The breeder, of course, won't take the dog back and won't refund any portion of the fee my brother paid. I hear stories like this all the time.
I think you're the guy who got the dog from an Amish puppy mill no? Sounds like you got lucky. I really hope when the dog gets older, it is sound in the joints, heart, etc... But problems in these areas are way to widespread in the lab world and there's no reason for it.
Yes you do. Personally, I have yet to see a lab that can better any well bred continental in waterfowl. I hunt with a ton of guys here that own labs. Whether it's on their boat or mine, it always seems there is an excuse why their dogs don't come with us.
I hunt ducks between 50-60 days a season all over New England, into Canada, and down in Arkansas. I was hunting with Charles Snapp and one of his guys last January. Both of them; diehard lab guys, said they had never seen dogs that are capable of using their noses as effectively as mine and my buddies wirehair. They never bothered to bring their labs out either.
I should probably go play more in some of the retrieving hunt tests, but frankly with everything I have going on right now, I just don't have the time.
"Section 1.01 Statement of Purpose
(a) DockDogs is the independent governing and sanctioning body for regional, national and international Dock JumpingTM and Dock DivingTM, dog performance sports. DockDogs establishes the rules and standards of the sport, tracks results and records, supports and promotes the growth of its athletes, events, spectators, and sponsors."
Not sure I see anything that says it is focused towards hunting, but I may be mistaken. Go look at the purpose of organizations like NAVHDA, JGHV, VHDF, even AKC; and you'll see a much different focus.
Not to take anything away from dock dogs, but I spend more of my time focusing on hunting related activities than these games. I have enough venues that I can play in and volunteer enough of my time and my dogs time to help tag waterfowl and improve upland habitat that games like aren't really on my radar screen. They do seem fun though and are really fun to watch. Plus, it is much important for the improvement of the breed that we focus on hunting related activities to identify potential breed stock rather than allowing chance to guide decisions.
Please provide your source on this statistic. I'm still waiting for your previous sources as well. By the way, why do you call it antler hunting? Are you carrying a gun? Seems to me you're taking a walk with your dog trying to beat the porcupines to the sheds.
You're wrong that all hunt tests take place in a controlled environment and isn't hunting. Many of the tests I'm involved with are conducted on wild game in their natural environment. The problem surrounding this is twofold:
1. In most places, it is illegal
2. It takes a lot more time, especially the portions of the test where we are tracking hare.
And more kids are bit, mauled and killed by labs than any other sporting breed as well. Great pets.
I have no issue with labs. If you like them great. Personally, I think they are useless for me and despise them as pets. They shed way too much for me and I have never met a lab that I can trust unconditionally with my kids.
Plus, they are so overbred that there are way too many problems. My brother got a lab from a very well known breeder... Great lines, both parents hunted a ton... all in all a no brainer decision. His dog is crosseyed, overshot and was recently diagnosed with HD. The breeder, of course, won't take the dog back and won't refund any portion of the fee my brother paid. I hear stories like this all the time.
I think you're the guy who got the dog from an Amish puppy mill no? Sounds like you got lucky. I really hope when the dog gets older, it is sound in the joints, heart, etc... But problems in these areas are way to widespread in the lab world and there's no reason for it.
Yes you do. Personally, I have yet to see a lab that can better any well bred continental in waterfowl. I hunt with a ton of guys here that own labs. Whether it's on their boat or mine, it always seems there is an excuse why their dogs don't come with us.
I hunt ducks between 50-60 days a season all over New England, into Canada, and down in Arkansas. I was hunting with Charles Snapp and one of his guys last January. Both of them; diehard lab guys, said they had never seen dogs that are capable of using their noses as effectively as mine and my buddies wirehair. They never bothered to bring their labs out either.
I should probably go play more in some of the retrieving hunt tests, but frankly with everything I have going on right now, I just don't have the time.
As far as hunt tests and field trials are concerned, they are nothing more than competitions that take place in a controlled environment and are over in a short amount of time.
A hunt test has about as much to do with hunting as does competing in a 3D archery shoot or a clay pigeon shoot.
And yes antler hunting is hunting, The dog must endure rugged and very thick terreign, adverse weather conditions and stay focused on the task at hand for 8-10 hours at a time even though it might not locate one antler during that entire time.
As far as labs not being able to be trusted with kids (LMAO)
More hunters and non hunters in north america as well as in the entire world own labs as family pets, more than any other breed of dog!! Labs are the most popular breed in the world for pets, waterfowl hunting and antler hunting!! Dont believe me? Google the AKC and look it up.
And yes you are correct that I got my pup from a rescue, I spend many hours training rescue dogs (regardless of breed) to be adoptable so they can be placed in a home a home. The health concerns you mentioned are not a worry for me because its not like I have to pay a vet bill etc. and I will let you in on a little secret, those hip and elbow certs you mentioned are not worth the paper they are printed on. (regarless of breed) Though eye certs are beneficial.
Sorry to hear about your brothers dog, tell you what next time he is looking for a pup let me know and also what breed he is interested in, I will find one for him and pick out the right one for him to train. Pike
Last edited by J Pike; 07-13-2010 at 11:14 AM.
07-13-2010 | 11:21 AM
#75
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,313
Likes: 0
From: York, PA.
mustad click on the link below to read this post made by a breeder in Montana in the""" Best dog for pheasant hunting thread"""
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/spor...hunting-2.html
would guess the preferred breed for hunting pheasants varies with geographic location.I have a kennel here in the Milk River Valley of Montana. We get bombarded by pheasant hunters from all over the U.S. every fall, so I see a lot of hunters and the dogs they use (many know me or know of me and stop by to visit). I see more flushing breeds than pointing breeds here.I see a few German Shorthairs, a few Brittneys, and a few English Setters. Other than that I'll see an occassional German Wirehair, a Viszla once in a while, etc. The most popular breed is the Lab...hands down. I see a lot of Springers also. A few people hunt Goldens. I'm seeing a few more Chessies each year...as a matter of fact, one of the outfitters here has used nothing but Chessies for at least the last 20 years.
I also participate in a couple of fundraiser hunts (for scholarship programs) where we divide up into teams and hunt. It's usually 4 to 6 people to a team with a pair of dogs per team. The most popular breed is the Lab by far followed by Springers. The only pointing dog that was used last year was a Brittney....did a real nice job too.
I've had two English Setters and a Gordon Setter in the past....from solid field lines. Maybe I'm just a lousy trainer or had duds, but they never could really handle wild pheasants. We got our birds opening weekend, of course (who doesn't?), but after that it was almost impossible. The birds just run too much. A good flushing dog will zero in and put the bird into the air before it gets a chance to run very far.
The other thing with pheasants is the retrieving end.... You have to have a dog that is an outstanding retriever as pheasants are a tough bird and if you dont kill them in the air they'll hit the ground running.. You just have to have a dog that will trail a cripple and won't give up. Some of the pointing bree would guess the preferred breed for hunting pheasants varies with geographic location.I have a kennel here in the Milk River Valley of Montana. We get bombarded by pheasant hunters from all over the U.S. every fall, so I see a lot of hunters and the dogs they use (many know me or know of me and stop by to visit). I see more flushing breeds than pointing breeds here.I see a few German Shorthairs, a few Brittneys, and a few English Setters. Other than that I'll see an occassional German Wirehair, a Viszla once in a while, etc. The most popular breed is the Lab...hands down. I see a lot of Springers also. A few people hunt Goldens. I'm seeing a few more Chessies each year...as a matter of fact, one of the outfitters here has used nothing but Chessies for at least the last 20 years.
I also participate in a couple of fundraiser hunts (for scholarship programs) where we divide up into teams and hunt. It's usually 4 to 6 people to a team with a pair of dogs per team. The most popular breed is the Lab by far followed by Springers. The only pointing dog that was used last year was a Brittney....did a real nice job too.
I've had two English Setters and a Gordon Setter in the past....from solid field lines. Maybe I'm just a lousy trainer or had duds, but they never could really handle wild pheasants. We got our birds opening weekend, of course (who doesn't?), but after that it was almost impossible. The birds just run too much. A good flushing dog will zero in and put the bird into the air before it gets a chance to run very far.
The other thing with pheasants is the retrieving end.... You have to have a dog that is an outstanding retriever as pheasants are a tough bird and if you dont kill them in the air they'll hit the ground running.. You just have to have a dog that will trail a cripple and won't give up. Some of the pointing breeds are outstanding retrievers, but generally speaking your flushing breeds tend to be quite a bit better.
ds are outstanding retrievers, but generally speaking your flushing breeds tend to be quite a bit better.
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/spor...hunting-2.html
would guess the preferred breed for hunting pheasants varies with geographic location.I have a kennel here in the Milk River Valley of Montana. We get bombarded by pheasant hunters from all over the U.S. every fall, so I see a lot of hunters and the dogs they use (many know me or know of me and stop by to visit). I see more flushing breeds than pointing breeds here.I see a few German Shorthairs, a few Brittneys, and a few English Setters. Other than that I'll see an occassional German Wirehair, a Viszla once in a while, etc. The most popular breed is the Lab...hands down. I see a lot of Springers also. A few people hunt Goldens. I'm seeing a few more Chessies each year...as a matter of fact, one of the outfitters here has used nothing but Chessies for at least the last 20 years.
I also participate in a couple of fundraiser hunts (for scholarship programs) where we divide up into teams and hunt. It's usually 4 to 6 people to a team with a pair of dogs per team. The most popular breed is the Lab by far followed by Springers. The only pointing dog that was used last year was a Brittney....did a real nice job too.
I've had two English Setters and a Gordon Setter in the past....from solid field lines. Maybe I'm just a lousy trainer or had duds, but they never could really handle wild pheasants. We got our birds opening weekend, of course (who doesn't?), but after that it was almost impossible. The birds just run too much. A good flushing dog will zero in and put the bird into the air before it gets a chance to run very far.
The other thing with pheasants is the retrieving end.... You have to have a dog that is an outstanding retriever as pheasants are a tough bird and if you dont kill them in the air they'll hit the ground running.. You just have to have a dog that will trail a cripple and won't give up. Some of the pointing bree would guess the preferred breed for hunting pheasants varies with geographic location.I have a kennel here in the Milk River Valley of Montana. We get bombarded by pheasant hunters from all over the U.S. every fall, so I see a lot of hunters and the dogs they use (many know me or know of me and stop by to visit). I see more flushing breeds than pointing breeds here.I see a few German Shorthairs, a few Brittneys, and a few English Setters. Other than that I'll see an occassional German Wirehair, a Viszla once in a while, etc. The most popular breed is the Lab...hands down. I see a lot of Springers also. A few people hunt Goldens. I'm seeing a few more Chessies each year...as a matter of fact, one of the outfitters here has used nothing but Chessies for at least the last 20 years.
I also participate in a couple of fundraiser hunts (for scholarship programs) where we divide up into teams and hunt. It's usually 4 to 6 people to a team with a pair of dogs per team. The most popular breed is the Lab by far followed by Springers. The only pointing dog that was used last year was a Brittney....did a real nice job too.
I've had two English Setters and a Gordon Setter in the past....from solid field lines. Maybe I'm just a lousy trainer or had duds, but they never could really handle wild pheasants. We got our birds opening weekend, of course (who doesn't?), but after that it was almost impossible. The birds just run too much. A good flushing dog will zero in and put the bird into the air before it gets a chance to run very far.
The other thing with pheasants is the retrieving end.... You have to have a dog that is an outstanding retriever as pheasants are a tough bird and if you dont kill them in the air they'll hit the ground running.. You just have to have a dog that will trail a cripple and won't give up. Some of the pointing breeds are outstanding retrievers, but generally speaking your flushing breeds tend to be quite a bit better.
ds are outstanding retrievers, but generally speaking your flushing breeds tend to be quite a bit better.
Last edited by J Pike; 07-13-2010 at 11:25 AM.
07-13-2010 | 12:20 PM
#76
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,195
Likes: 0
From: PA.
jp, reason i see more other dogs here in pa pheasant hunting is because most dont want to raise/feed 2 dogs.a lot do grouse hunting.so they are trying to find dog that can do pheasant/grouse.
those dogs are SETTERS/GSP.those dogs will hunt longer. like 4/6 hrs.we all know how long lab lasts on hillside in early oct.about 2 hrs max.
as DOC E said,lab has to be in shape,i agree.their coats are just so heavy they overheat.others dont as much.
if owner just does 1 type of hunting like pheasants, i agree the LAB is one to have.but most dont hunt 1 bird .hills in pa are hot/buggy/dusty /rough hunting for dog.they have to be in shape and be type of dog to handle this.
lab is just not one in my opinion ,not their fault they were born with heavy bones and heavy coat not for this type of hunting.
labs handle it but no where near what i seen a SETTER/GSP can do .
can lab do it,well DOC E has proved that and just came in 3rd place in those navade tests.his is POINTING LAB .i think first place was EP,second was VISUALA,3rd was docs lab.
my only concern i have seen with toby hunting grouse or pheasants is he GETS TIRED SO QUICK, TONGUE COMES OUT.
i have been out with LEWELLIN SETTERS that hunted 4 days a week on grouse. hunted next day.
toby next day is wore out from just 2 or so hrs hunting.that same setter we hunted in afternoon.about 5 hrs hunting and used her again next day.toby MUST have day of rest .
take care sproul
those dogs are SETTERS/GSP.those dogs will hunt longer. like 4/6 hrs.we all know how long lab lasts on hillside in early oct.about 2 hrs max.
as DOC E said,lab has to be in shape,i agree.their coats are just so heavy they overheat.others dont as much.
if owner just does 1 type of hunting like pheasants, i agree the LAB is one to have.but most dont hunt 1 bird .hills in pa are hot/buggy/dusty /rough hunting for dog.they have to be in shape and be type of dog to handle this.
lab is just not one in my opinion ,not their fault they were born with heavy bones and heavy coat not for this type of hunting.
labs handle it but no where near what i seen a SETTER/GSP can do .
can lab do it,well DOC E has proved that and just came in 3rd place in those navade tests.his is POINTING LAB .i think first place was EP,second was VISUALA,3rd was docs lab.
my only concern i have seen with toby hunting grouse or pheasants is he GETS TIRED SO QUICK, TONGUE COMES OUT.
i have been out with LEWELLIN SETTERS that hunted 4 days a week on grouse. hunted next day.
toby next day is wore out from just 2 or so hrs hunting.that same setter we hunted in afternoon.about 5 hrs hunting and used her again next day.toby MUST have day of rest .
take care sproul
07-13-2010 | 12:52 PM
#77
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,313
Likes: 0
From: York, PA.
Sproul, Mojo shed hunted in March (80 degree temps) 8-10 hours per day in the rugged steep hills of SE. OH. and he was only 16 weeks old at the time. Pike
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/whit...d-hunts-2.html
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/whit...d-hunts-2.html
Last edited by J Pike; 07-13-2010 at 01:03 PM.
07-13-2010 | 01:20 PM
#78
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,195
Likes: 0
From: PA.
great pics.i wish i knew how to do that.i think i am going to pay someone locally to come to house to show me how to put pics on here for us too.
toby was pointing up a yellow rattler last week,i wish i had camera at time in river.
toby was pointing up a yellow rattler last week,i wish i had camera at time in river.
07-13-2010 | 02:16 PM
#79
Typical Buck
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 811
Likes: 0
From: New England
Mustad the only reason I listed dock diving is because Jimmy S mentioned it earlier in the thread. Though dock diving does prove that labs are as athletic as any other sporting breed.
As far as hunt tests and field trials are concerned, they are nothing more than competitions that take place in a controlled environment and are over in a short amount of time.
A hunt test has about as much to do with hunting as does competing in a 3D archery shoot or a clay pigeon shoot.
And yes antler hunting is hunting, The dog must endure rugged and very thick terreign, adverse weather conditions and stay focused on the task at hand for 8-10 hours at a time even though it might not locate one antler during that entire time.
As far as labs not being able to be trusted with kids (LMAO)
More hunters and non hunters in north america as well as in the entire world own labs as family pets, more than any other breed of dog!! Labs are the most popular breed in the world for pets, waterfowl hunting and antler hunting!! Dont believe me? Google the AKC and look it up.
And yes you are correct that I got my pup from a rescue, I spend many hours training rescue dogs (regardless of breed) to be adoptable so they can be placed in a home a home. The health concerns you mentioned are not a worry for me because its not like I have to pay a vet bill etc. and I will let you in on a little secret, those hip and elbow certs you mentioned are not worth the paper they are printed on. (regarless of breed) Though eye certs are beneficial.
Sorry to hear about your brothers dog, tell you what next time he is looking for a pup let me know and also what breed he is interested in, I will find one for him and pick out the right one for him to train. Pike
As far as hunt tests and field trials are concerned, they are nothing more than competitions that take place in a controlled environment and are over in a short amount of time.
A hunt test has about as much to do with hunting as does competing in a 3D archery shoot or a clay pigeon shoot.
And yes antler hunting is hunting, The dog must endure rugged and very thick terreign, adverse weather conditions and stay focused on the task at hand for 8-10 hours at a time even though it might not locate one antler during that entire time.
As far as labs not being able to be trusted with kids (LMAO)
More hunters and non hunters in north america as well as in the entire world own labs as family pets, more than any other breed of dog!! Labs are the most popular breed in the world for pets, waterfowl hunting and antler hunting!! Dont believe me? Google the AKC and look it up.
And yes you are correct that I got my pup from a rescue, I spend many hours training rescue dogs (regardless of breed) to be adoptable so they can be placed in a home a home. The health concerns you mentioned are not a worry for me because its not like I have to pay a vet bill etc. and I will let you in on a little secret, those hip and elbow certs you mentioned are not worth the paper they are printed on. (regarless of breed) Though eye certs are beneficial.
Sorry to hear about your brothers dog, tell you what next time he is looking for a pup let me know and also what breed he is interested in, I will find one for him and pick out the right one for him to train. Pike
Based on your lack of knowledge of hunt tests, I really don't think you have any basis to an opinion that holds any value other than pure speculation. At the same time, you're all over the place on your argument. So now you're saying that shooting clay pigeons has nothing to do with hunting? Under the same argument, sighting in a scope has nothing to with deer hunting? Yet walking in the woods looking for antler sheds is hunting? I think you have a different definition of hunting than I.
That's great that you work with rescue dogs, but frankly your time would be better spent shutting down those Amish puppy mills in the first place along with probably 75% of the lab breeders that are producing dogs which have no purpose to exist in the first place other than to generate a few bucks.
You are truly blind if you don't see the issue regarding aggression within the lab population. I have to believe you have a defence mechanism up here. I have read many articles that show examples of dogs that have been aggressive. If you can't acknowledge this as a serious temperament issue, you have problems. I wonder if that dog ended up getting bred. Let's keep churning those pups out because the AKC needs the registration $$'s. They would probably have gotten the dog's hips checked, but what the heck. It's perfectly normal for a dog not to be able to walk because it's hip joints fall apart. No reason to try to control that process. Now that's a great scenario.
Don't worry about my bro. He's been enlightened to the fact that a popularity contest doesn't result in the best outcome.
Last edited by mustad; 07-13-2010 at 05:51 PM. Reason: too descriptive detail.
07-13-2010 | 05:45 PM
#80
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,195
Likes: 0
From: PA.
my toby will bite and has. i have to watch him CONSTANTLY.he does not like anyone touching his mouth.i had him nuetered because of this, did not want to pass this along.
so i live with it but it is chore i dont enjoy.
my vet said SPROUL I AM SEEING MORE LABS COMING IN WITH AGGRESSION.
i bought toby from top breeder too.
but that could be said for other breeds too.i seen a few GSP that bite.
so i live with it but it is chore i dont enjoy.
my vet said SPROUL I AM SEEING MORE LABS COMING IN WITH AGGRESSION.
i bought toby from top breeder too.
but that could be said for other breeds too.i seen a few GSP that bite.