Mite

You're right, most dogs here lack training because of the owners. But on the flipside, there is very little land to work them here. Some of the more serious hunters take their dogs to a professional trainer. The handful of trainers herecharge$600+/month because the demand is very high.

I belong to the Greater Seattle Bird Dog Club mainly because of the training sessions. They are a NSTRA affiliated club. Last summer there were a handful of GSPs in training and they were just asrumbuncious as any other dog there. Don't get me wrong, I think the GSP can holdtheir ownagainst any breed in upland birds but I still have yet to see onedoing waterfowl here.

As to the DD and DK, I don't know much about them but I hear they have an excellent breeding program.

Red Earth

Mite,

There is a breeding program exactly! The dogs have to be tested and proven beofre they can be bred, PERIOD! Waterfowl work plays a major part as well.


Truth be..... You obviously have no idea what you are talking about...... Got anything to back up your statements. Dogs? BEen to any DK or DD tests? Have a NAVDHA dog?

I have both breeds, been to both venues. And still compete in both as well!


I honestly give no credit to man who hides behind a computer screen under a ficticous name!

Phil
REO

Truth be told....

You are one of the typical guys I would expect to meet at one of those events. Your snobbish demeaner is a hallmark of the organizations. It is your kinds mentality that you "compete" in the venue that has ruined it. They are tests of dogs against a standard, the tests are not "competitions".

You know you can take DD and register it in the AKC and PRESTO!! It says on the AKC papers it is a german wirehaired pointer!! How about that? The Kurzhaar is just the german GSP, you can do the same thing when registering a DK. The only difference is the germans have a "supposed" breeding program. What it really is is a little tight knit gang of cronyism. If you want to see the American version, then you go to a NAVHDA event. Same ol, same ol....[:@]

mustad

TBT,

The "supposed" breeding program that you mention has been in place for how many years? 56? more? less? Let's assume it's 56 as I believe this is verifiable.

Let's also assume that you can define what you want out of a gun dog.

Now, take two sets of dogs. One starts down the path where the dog can be bred to another dog of the same type. No other standards are met.

The other set has standards that need to be met before a dog can be deemed breedable. These standards have an exact match to the definition you have made to what you want out of a gun dog. In other words, in order for any of these dogs in the second group to be deemed breedable, they MUST meet a minimum level that matches your needs of a gun dog.

Do you think that over the course of 56 years of breeding both groups; that you will see any difference in the level of consitency of one group to meet the needs already defined over another?

Cheers,

Red Earth

You have no idea who I am. To make remarks about me or what I do.

You can register anything you want you are right. But the perdigree still follows the dog! I am fully aware what the differences are between all formats. And do well in several.

Again, no respect can be given to a meger person who hides behind a computer screen and fiticous name, and make accusations about another. Be a man!

Back up your statements, or sit back and keep your comments, about which you know nothing about, to your self.

Phil

Truth be told....

Well Red Earth there you are with your snobbish ways in the above post, again!!......you must fit in nicely with both outfits....[&:]

mustad

TBT,

I'm still looking forward to your response and opinion on my last post... Reading your's again, I have to dissagree with some of the things you are saying:


Yes, I agree, but you cannot do the opposite. You cannot take an AKC registered GWP and get VDD papers recognizing it as a DD. On a side note, I'm not sure bringing the AKC into the mix really lends any credibility whatsoever to your statement. The AKC has ruined more than a few breeds already in my opinion.

I'm not sure what the basis of your cronyism comment is; perhaps you have had a bad experience with someone that left a sour taste... anyways, I don't believe the VDD is at all the same thing as NAVHDA. I see a couple of differences between NAVHDA and the VDD as it comes to breeding and testing (won't commend on DKs as I have absolutely no knowledge in that area). First, my understanding is there are differences in the tests which are conducted in NAVHDA and those conducted in the VDD (btw, a DD performing tests in NAVHDA is also labeled a GWP, not a DD). Also, my understanding is there are no standards that dictate whether a dog can or cannot be bred under the auspices of NAVHDA, whereas this is not the case in the VDD. If a dog doesn't meet the standards set, any puppies resulting from any breeding will not be recognized by the VDD as DD's. It seems to me from the people I have spoken with that tests in NAVHDA are almost more of an opportunity to prove that your dog can do something, a chance to meet other hunters with their dogs, and if you are making a business out of breeding; a chance to put some credibility behind your bloodlines that may enable you to generate more enthusiasm around your dog. In the VDD, testing is done out of desire to continue to improve the consistency in the breed.

Obviously, you have a strong opinion here, but I can't really see what it is. Could you clarify and respond please?

Thanks,

Truth be told....

I don't dispute any of what you say in your above post mustad. I know what dog can be registed in what and what can not be registered. The germans are just more anal in their breeding practices, sort of that Ayran race thing only in dogs. In the USA we have free enterprise, it is my dog I can do what I want with it.......kind of thinking. I have seen dogs from both organizations that are supposedly "top of the heap" I would not feed them. But in both organizations they take these TEST dogs and breed their cronies TEST dog with their TEST dog, and sell the pups on TEST scores. Both outfits proclaim to be "improving" the breed or "protecting versatile dogs"....it is all a bunch of malarky, and all part of each organization's sales pitch. Been there, done it, seen it, and tested it. What a downer it really was, once seen from the inside.[&o] Cronyism running amok.

It is like NAVHDA trying to tell me or sell me on the idea that a brittany is a versatile dog. Baloney!![&:]

mustad

I have not spoken to all of the breeders in the VDD, so it would be impossible for me to argue your claim without exception.

That said, I have spoken to a number of them here in the northeast, both in the states and here in Canada. I can say that among these people in talking about their upcoming breeds, test scores NEVER came up in the description of the dog. It was all about drive, hunting ability, demeaner, etc... Yes, the test scores are available, but my experience so far has been that the test scores are simply proof that the combination of sire and dam they are using for a breed is acceptable in the eyes of the VDD.

I love your comparison between the VDD breeding practices and Nazi Germany. Not sure the VDD promotes breeding a DD with a goat; but maybe that's just around the corner, eh? Deutschland Deutschland uber alles!!!

What really perplexes me though is your statement calling the whole system a bunch of malarky and discounting the claim that efforts by the VDD are improving the breed. Could you help me understand why you say this?

It sounds like you had a really bad experience here. I have to say that my experience so far has been great. Everyone I've met have been hard core hunters; extremely passionate about getting the absolute most out of their dogs; and very very down to earth... not the snobbery you are referring to at all. Maybe you ran into the wrong people.

Cheers,

Phil from Maine

I have to agree that the AKC has ruined a lot of breeds! Such as the Irish,
but, on the same note there is some that work very hard at restoring these breeds back. Myself if a dog likes water, he likes water if he doesn't
he doesn't. It's more of an individual personality in the dog and not so much the breed. Then again I could have a dog from a litter that is champion this and champion that. It doesn't that its pups are champions.
How ever the chances are better for them to be! I know all about the Irish I hunt with them and love it! For as far as cost go its what you want cheap is great buit doesn't mean the dog is or that the dog is bad either!
It's what you want it for.
For as far as the bird trials I've only walked through three braces last year and they were a great group of guys.They offerd me ideas on training and didn't care what breed my dogs are.( only three braces as I had
to go to a friends funeral that am. who died on the job ) So I went for the afternoon trials ( National Grouse and Woodcock Trails on the Moosehorn Wildlife Refuge ) yes they told the Irish Setter is against the grain sort thing. But it didn't bother them and thought it was great to have some new interest.They all invited me back but unforunatly I had to work the next day. Anyways the setters I run are AKC with field champions in them and not all AKC setters are great dogs.But, the main thing is I like them nothing else matters. For as far as cost goes most probaly wouldn't pay the price of the airfair for a good dog but it's what I wanted that counted.