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RE: Too much doggie anger!!
Have a good trip Justin, don't pick up any bad habits from those yankees.
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RE: Too much doggie anger!!
ORIGINAL: eng40sqd vulture... If you would take a minute to read all of my posts on all the threads regarding this subject(forgive me I do post on seveal other boards so I might not have put all of it on here) you will see that I grew up a still hunter and am still a huge still hunter, I spend countless hours putting in food plots, scouting and shed hunting, moving and placing stands and all things that go with it and so on, not o mention the money I spend for the purpose of still hunting. I have had numerous hunts disturbed by rouge dogs and whole packs that were chasing deer and or foxes and oncea coyote. I know whats its like to sit thee and during the golden hour before sunset to have the silence broken and a evening shot to hell. I have also been still hunting and had dogs come through and not too long later had other deer that were bumped by the dogs come sneaking by heading back the way the dogs came from and gotten to harvest them. so YES I do know what he is talking about. I also know the amont of money that I spend on my dogs such as food (which I am a dealer and it is still insane the cost of it) kennel up keep, meds and wormers (just finished my monthly worming and it costs me about $60 just to worm them to keep them healthy) plus rabies and other vet bills. Plus the tracking equipment costs and upkeep etc etc... not to mention the gas involved in that as well.. all in the of season which is jan thourgh nov.. plus the time I spend with pups in rabbit and fox pens trying to strart them but keep them from picking up bad habits. I do have about half of my dogs who will run the hair off of a fox or a yote so I will take them out and fox hunt them during the summer but generally when oct gets here mine are in the pen until opening day because thats the way it is suppose to be. I am all for a sit down and reach a middle ground approach (once again refer to my other posts). I see you and many others say this but what have you done toward that other than just type it. Have you taken time to speak to local landowners both that allow hunting (all types) and those that dont, have you talked to other still hunters and still hunting groups in your area? What about dog hunters one at a time and or in group settings? WHat about your local consevation officer and state biologist? I have done a few things in every one of these questions... not saying I have talked to everyone by anymeans but I have made a start... and did this back at the end of last simmer when I started doing this and I am continuing to do so. All of this with the intent to have our own little focus groups to reach middle ground. I am also workign on putting a still hunt only club together and have some land leads to go with.. some with no dog hunting near them and some with very little dog pressure around, once I see i have a group of good and sincere people I will move forward with that/. I have run a rather large club so I already have most of the things in place except people. Rick has actually been on one of the tracts I am going to go after. Justin I’ve read a lot of your posts (but by no means all of them) and think I have a pretty good take on your position, and don’t see you as part of the problem. And I'm glad you take care of your dogs -- I too spend considerable money to take care of my land -- a couple of hundred dollars in posted signs alone, let alone property taxes, insurance, etc... I generally have nothing against people who hunt deer utilizing dogs so long as they stay within the spirit of the law and have a respect for other people’s property. I’m sure that most hunters (whether they hunt with dogs or not) do this. I haven’t posted much on this issue on this board, but I have posted some. Admittedly, some posts were done when I was angry with local deer-doggers, but I’ve tried to limit those. Overall, my experience this year has been markedly different from years past in that dog incursions have been few and far between, and most of those times that I have come across someone retrieving dogs they’ve been apologetic and courteous (unlike a couple of years ago when I was threatened at gunpoint and told that “a book of matches would settle everything”). Yes, I’ve talked with local clubs and local deer-doggers as well as local law enforcement and the game warden, although I haven't talked to other land owners in the area unless you count the clubs and those who are running the dogs. I have my property posted within (and in excess) of regulations (and so far this year, no one has shot or torn down my posted signs). My issues in the past with deer-doggers are tied directly to my post above – that is people intentionally running their dogs across my property (which is illegal, but how to prove intent). Again, that wasn’t much of a problem this year. I understand that dogs may stray across boundaries and I’m pretty much okay with my local deer doggers this year – they notify me if they need to come on my land to retrieve their dogs (by law not a requirement, but still a much appreciatedcourtesy). A simple cell phone call – that’s it and we’re cool. My property hasn’t been vandalized this year, and I haven’t ducked buckshot – nor have I come across wounded/dying/dead deer on my property and the trash left behind has been pretty minimal (in comparisons to years past). I no longer feel that I need to carry a side arm every time I go out to post the boundary, scout, or maintain the property (during the off season). Of course, this is one year out of the past 30 that I’ve been responsible for this property. It’s been in my family now for coming up on 95 years, so I’m sure that there is other history there as well. If things continue like they were this year, then I don’t see any problems coming up, and I’m sure that given time and a record of responsibility and respect, the relationship between me and the local deer-doggers and still hunters will improve in the spirit of compromise (one year is a start, not a pattern of behavior). |
RE: Too much doggie anger!!
for the anti dog hunters who keep belly aching about the dogs trespassing on other peoples land, i'm quite sure there are FAR more still hunters who trespass and actually kill deer on other peoples property than dogs trespassing. i'd be more concerned with these type of people and poachers than an occaisional dog wandering through my property. but i guess if you don't see it, it doesn't matter:eek:. i no longer dog hunt but i use too, however i'm not slamming someone else's choice of hunting style either. i think it's just easier for some hunters to blame their lack of success on dogs rather than them not doing enough homework.
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RE: Too much doggie anger!!
ORIGINAL: CamoCop for the anti dog hunters who keep belly aching about the dogs trespassing on other peoples land, i'm quite sure there are FAR more still hunters who trespass and actually kill deer on other peoples property than dogs trespassing. i'd be more concerned with these type of people and poachers than an occaisional dog wandering through my property. but i guess if you don't see it, it doesn't matter:eek:. i no longer dog hunt but i use too, however i'm not slamming someone else's choice of hunting style either. i think it's just easier for some hunters to blame their lack of success on dogs rather than them not doing enough homework. I am not how sure I am of your statement that there are "FAR more still hunters who trespass and actually kill deer" than dogs trespassing. Maybe, maybe not. Of course, a "still hunter" who is smoking cigarettes and standing on my property at a funnel who is waiting for his buddies to run the dogs through -- ishe included inthe type oftrespassing still hunter that you are referring to? Still hunters who trespass and poach are a problem too, but there are already laws in place that make that an illegal activity... therefore there is not big debate about adding more laws to make it more illegal! Just on my experience, and my property, this year alone, I had two still hunters trespassing - one during bow season and one during gun season (the guy during bow season argued with me and THEN asked for permission to hunt my land! The guy during gun season, carrying both a rifle and a shotgun, and not wearing a stitch of orange, left quickly and apologized -- and we both pretended that he didn't know he was intentionallytrespassing). I had, if I recall correctly, four issues with dogs (the keyword"issues" - not "an occasional dog wandering through my property"). Last year I think I had one still hunter trespassing and multiple, multipleissues with dogs and deer-doggers -- one that included one guy threatening me and law enforcement getting involved. Now, to your point, just about anywhere on my 200 acres I can hear dogs running, but I can't necessarily tell if there are still hunters trespassing unless I hear them shoot or see them. Now, there are no doubt some "anti-dog hunters" on this board - and they obviously arrived at their strong stance due to their personal experiences (and not through jealousy or any issues related to "fair chase").I think most land owners are willing to work with deer-doggers provided that they are willing to treat the land owner (and their land) with respect. Yes, deer-doggers have the right to come onto my land without permission to retrieve their dogs, but I have my cell phone number on ALL of my posted signs and talking with local dog handlers they have mostly agreed to give me a call if/when they need to come on my land to retrieve their dogs. Are they required to? No, not by law, but they're doing it now out of a courtesy - working with me so as not to spoil my hunt and also for a point of safety - just so I know that there may be someone coming over the north boundary (we are all armed, afterall). That's what I mean by cooperation. Part of my land borders a hunt club. Used to be, they'd come over and drop their dogs off on the road that runs adjacent to my property so that the dogs could run across my property and onto the club -- that's illegal activity according to the local game warden, but it is near impossible to enforce. The game laws allow deer-doggers to release their dogs on a road and across a public right of way IF that public right of way borders authorized hunting land -- it isn't license to drop their dogs on any road in the state. Talking with the dog handlers, the game warden, and a sheriff's deputy we've reached an understanding. Quite frankly, the dog handler didn't know that it wasn't allowed - he thought that the regulation that let him drop his dogs on a public right of way meant any public right of way. In my post a page or two back, that's what I meant by defining loopholes and educating people. We need to be able to get beyond the "screw you we've always done it this way, it's our hunting heritage" and the "well screw you, it's my land and I'll shoot any dog that comes on it". Likewise, we need to move beyond the "my form of hunting is better than yours - your not a real hunter" or the "the reason you can't kill a deer isn't because dogs run through your area but because youdon't know enough about hunting" crap. That gets us no where. I don't think we can count on those guys, on either end ofthe argument,to be the ones to start the compromise. The rest of us have to start and either those guys will come along or the whole process will go down the toilet. |
RE: Too much doggie anger!!
Vulture, have you thought of putting up a square wire fence. I know it's a pain and the expense, but it doesn't take long for the deer to learn they can lose the dogs on the fence. What county is your land in?
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RE: Too much doggie anger!!
I've thought about fencing in my property, but it costs about $1.40 per foot, not including labor. I had 4 strands of barb up, and it worked pretty good. Last year a local hunt club that has the land beside me, cut my fence in two places so the deer would cross more in that location. Really pissed me off.They even had the nerve to cut the saplings along side of the field to make a"funnel" for the deer to travel. I called the sheriffs dept. and they saidto call the game dept. The game dept. hates me because, as they told a good friend of mine, I complain too much, and I caused them a great deal of problems.You see I write my delegates and congressman when I get mad.Maybe it helps, maybe it hurts. All I know is they are looking at outlawing the bad guys for a change. More power to the VDGIF if they protect all the people of Virginia, not just a few.
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RE: Too much doggie anger!!
This topic brought back some bad memories from a SC hunt 10 years ago.
Things can get heated quick with dogs . I was hunting withthe land owner , when he picked me up asked if I'd seen anything . I said one spike runnin from 2 dogs . As we are comin over the hill top he spots 2 dogs and asks , are those the ones ya seen chasin the spike. I said yep , he said he knew the owner and was sick and god d*** tired of him runnin dogs on his property . He stopped the truck got out and shot both them dogs . Now I love dogs , and was disgusted with this guy killin them dogs. Dogs only do what they are born or trained to do . The beagle had a hell of noseand that old man wasone sorry SOB in my opinion. Unfortunately this happens all too frequently. |
RE: Too much doggie anger!!
Robert4570, your friend sounds like a pretty reasonable guy. Had dog hunters who did not have permission to hunt my land tell me they would put their dogs out right in front of my house if I didn't want to give them permission, when I refused, said "GD landowners think they can control everything".
Since most of them lived in mobile homes and didn't have a pot to pee in I thought they would take me up on the $100I offered to give them if they ran their dogs across my land one more time. Lat time I saw them, but then again, they also had a few less dogs than when they started too. Darn shame. |
RE: Too much doggie anger!!
ORIGINAL: eng40sqd I see that he (bigg~Birdd) tends to me standoffish and unwilling to talk... maybe we should throw him and the deer doggers who are unwilling to talk into one room and let them have at each other.. maybe sell tickets and donate it all to the hunters for the hungry program or to the disabled veterens hunts that I have been involved in... but those two groups are different topics. You have to take into account that the above mentioned person is the same one who totes on a public forum about his illegal actions or justice in his mind, that he endorses and or alledgedlly participates in. When questioned about said activities he refuses to respond, but yet even other non deer dog hunters who have hd problems and are unhappy and are seeking resolutions have commented that those actions are unethical in themself and would put him in the same pot... so there is a frew pot calling the kettle black on here... none the less all of the bickering and moaning and shouting amongst the two groups will cause nothign but to have effects that neither groups want to see,but will help the antis with their agendas..... Rick I am glad to see your one of the ones on here that are being open minded and willing to talk to those that share the open mindedness from all sides. I know that you may/have had some direct issues with the SLOB deer dog hunters, but I am sure that like many of us on here you have had issues with SLOB non deer dog hunters as well and you know that neither side have virgin white backgrounds. I would like to chat some on the phone with you in regards to this and a few other things.. when is good for you... I am leaving for New York this aternoon/evening and will be back Sunday evening so after that is good... Justin |
RE: Too much doggie anger!!
ORIGINAL: eng40sqd vulture... If you would take a minute to read all of my posts on all the threads regarding this subject(forgive me I do post on seveal other boards so I might not have put all of it on here) you will see that I grew up a still hunter and am still a huge still hunter, I spend countless hours putting in food plots, scouting and shed hunting, moving and placing stands and all things that go with it and so on, not o mention the money I spend for the purpose of still hunting. I have had numerous hunts disturbed by rouge dogs and whole packs that were chasing deer and or foxes and oncea coyote. I know whats its like to sit thee and during the golden hour before sunset to have the silence broken and a evening shot to hell. I have also been still hunting and had dogs come through and not too long later had other deer that were bumped by the dogs come sneaking by heading back the way the dogs came from and gotten to harvest them. so YES I do know what he is talking about. I also know the amont of money that I spend on my dogs such as food (which I am a dealer and it is still insane the cost of it) kennel up keep, meds and wormers (just finished my monthly worming and it costs me about $60 just to worm them to keep them healthy) plus rabies and other vet bills. Plus the tracking equipment costs and upkeep etc etc... not to mention the gas involved in that as well.. all in the of season which is jan thourgh nov.. plus the time I spend with pups in rabbit and fox pens trying to strart them but keep them from picking up bad habits. I do have about half of my dogs who will run the hair off of a fox or a yote so I will take them out and fox hunt them during the summer but generally when oct gets here mine are in the pen until opening day because thats the way it is suppose to be. I am all for a sit down and reach a middle ground approach (once again refer to my other posts). I see you and many others say this but what have you done toward that other than just type it. Have you taken time to speak to local landowners both that allow hunting (all types) and those that dont, have you talked to other still hunters and still hunting groups in your area? What about dog hunters one at a time and or in group settings? WHat about your local consevation officer and state biologist? I have done a few things in every one of these questions... not saying I have talked to everyone by anymeans but I have made a start... and did this back at the end of last simmer when I started doing this and I am continuing to do so. All of this with the intent to have our own little focus groups to reach middle ground. I am also workign on putting a still hunt only club together and have some land leads to go with.. some with no dog hunting near them and some with very little dog pressure around, once I see i have a group of good and sincere people I will move forward with that/. I have run a rather large club so I already have most of the things in place except people. Rick has actually been on one of the tracts I am going to go after. Justin |
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