Brass inspection/Safety Concerns
12-13-2010, 02:51 PM
#21
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: S.W. Pa.-- Heart in North Central Pa. mountains-
Posts: 2,600
Good advice... I just wanted to be sure he knew where he was with the bullet/lands thing off the bat. Tweaking seating depth is best left, as you said, after a noticeably good grouping occurs and repeats itself with a particular bullet/primer/powder load.....
12-13-2010, 06:03 PM
#22
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North Florida
Posts: 56
By crimping, the pressure most likely did increase but the velocity most likely dropped effecting the trajectory therefore changing the POI. No reason you should have to crimp in this caliber, just make sure your sizing the case properly.
pawildman has given you two good ways to measure however I wouldn't start moving the bullet around until you settle on a load that you are satisfied with and then adjust your seating depth to tighten up the group...if it will help. But knowing where your at now will help you determine how much your moving the bullet later.
pawildman has given you two good ways to measure however I wouldn't start moving the bullet around until you settle on a load that you are satisfied with and then adjust your seating depth to tighten up the group...if it will help. But knowing where your at now will help you determine how much your moving the bullet later.
Just a point of interest, I didn't measure the cartridge lengths, but I have 2 boxes of factory ammo, and my reloads. My 120 gr reloads are slightly longer than the factory Win 125 SP, and the factory Rem Core-Lokt 150s are significantly longer then both of them. If length is important, why are lengths different out of the box? One size doesn't fit all??
12-13-2010, 07:15 PM
#23
Fork Horn
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Southern New Hampshire
Posts: 190
12-13-2010, 08:05 PM
#24
Guest
Posts: n/a
12-14-2010, 02:08 PM
#25
Fork Horn
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Southern New Hampshire
Posts: 190
Exactly what I was referring to. Those dimensional charts give the min & max specifications that factory ammunition manufacturers need to follow in order for their ammo to fit safely in every "factory" firearm made in any particular caliber. Those same dimensions also give reloaders a baseline to go by. However, just because one type of ammo is longer or shorter than another doesn't mean they are out of spec from SAMMI. It only means the manufacturer choose to seat the bullet where they put it based on best over all performance and bullet profile however still within spec.
But you already knew this!
Please don't take this the wrong way kerrdog,
To me, when anyone ask this type of question my first thought is they need to read a reloading manual and visit the SAMMI site. No the site doesn't take you by the hand and specifically talk about why different manufacturer ammo are different lengths nor do they have a FAQ link and maybe they should. But by the same token, one should be able to figure it out without too much difficulty. If you know the specs, take a micrometer, and measure the ammo, one should be able to draw their own conclusion rather easily. If not....well you know where I'm going with this. I realize this was just a innocent question but it was the type of question that leaves me wondering if a reloading manual was ever read. Every reloader should read at least one. kerrdog, if you have read one or two manuals than please foregive me for sounding like an a$$ and I meant no disrespect. I just felt you should have known this from the get go. I apologize.
But you already knew this!
Please don't take this the wrong way kerrdog,
To me, when anyone ask this type of question my first thought is they need to read a reloading manual and visit the SAMMI site. No the site doesn't take you by the hand and specifically talk about why different manufacturer ammo are different lengths nor do they have a FAQ link and maybe they should. But by the same token, one should be able to figure it out without too much difficulty. If you know the specs, take a micrometer, and measure the ammo, one should be able to draw their own conclusion rather easily. If not....well you know where I'm going with this. I realize this was just a innocent question but it was the type of question that leaves me wondering if a reloading manual was ever read. Every reloader should read at least one. kerrdog, if you have read one or two manuals than please foregive me for sounding like an a$$ and I meant no disrespect. I just felt you should have known this from the get go. I apologize.
Last edited by 7MMXBOLT; 12-14-2010 at 02:13 PM.
12-14-2010, 03:09 PM
#26
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: S.W. Pa.-- Heart in North Central Pa. mountains-
Posts: 2,600
...... It just constantly amazes me the number of questions that are asked here that are explained in depth in a good reloading manual. I don't know if people are in too much of a hurry to just sit down and read, or if they just need some "I'll help you thru this" guidance. By the same token, if one doesn't understand the lingo or terminology used in a manual, this is absolutely the best place to get clarification. Sometimes, tho, I just feel that not enough "homework" was done.... i.e. digesting the info in a good, comprehensive manual.. and having a GOOD set of calipers... OK, I've said enuff.......
12-14-2010, 04:07 PM
#27
Fork Horn
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 194
Kerrdog,
You wrote:
I only did so because the bullets were loose after FL sizing. The second batch I neck sized AFTER full length sizing, and that tightened them up. No crimping involved.
What do you mean "the bullets were loose?" Were they flopping around? Falling into the case? This statement worried me some as I have never had that happen to me. Could it be your expander ball is bigger than it should be?
Is sounds like the folks here have given some excellent advise. Although I might add that extra kick could be you experiencing excess pressures due to your crimp.
Just my two cents worth!!! Be safe!!!!!
You wrote:
I only did so because the bullets were loose after FL sizing. The second batch I neck sized AFTER full length sizing, and that tightened them up. No crimping involved.
What do you mean "the bullets were loose?" Were they flopping around? Falling into the case? This statement worried me some as I have never had that happen to me. Could it be your expander ball is bigger than it should be?
Is sounds like the folks here have given some excellent advise. Although I might add that extra kick could be you experiencing excess pressures due to your crimp.
Just my two cents worth!!! Be safe!!!!!
12-14-2010, 05:06 PM
#28
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North Florida
Posts: 56
Exactly what I was referring to. Those dimensional charts give the min & max specifications that factory ammunition manufacturers need to follow in order for their ammo to fit safely in every "factory" firearm made in any particular caliber. Those same dimensions also give reloaders a baseline to go by. However, just because one type of ammo is longer or shorter than another doesn't mean they are out of spec from SAMMI. It only means the manufacturer choose to seat the bullet where they put it based on best over all performance and bullet profile however still within spec.
But you already knew this!
Please don't take this the wrong way kerrdog,
To me, when anyone ask this type of question my first thought is they need to read a reloading manual and visit the SAMMI site. No the site doesn't take you by the hand and specifically talk about why different manufacturer ammo are different lengths nor do they have a FAQ link and maybe they should. But by the same token, one should be able to figure it out without too much difficulty. If you know the specs, take a micrometer, and measure the ammo, one should be able to draw their own conclusion rather easily. If not....well you know where I'm going with this. I realize this was just a innocent question but it was the type of question that leaves me wondering if a reloading manual was ever read. Every reloader should read at least one. kerrdog, if you have read one or two manuals than please foregive me for sounding like an a$$ and I meant no disrespect. I just felt you should have known this from the get go. I apologize.
But you already knew this!
Please don't take this the wrong way kerrdog,
To me, when anyone ask this type of question my first thought is they need to read a reloading manual and visit the SAMMI site. No the site doesn't take you by the hand and specifically talk about why different manufacturer ammo are different lengths nor do they have a FAQ link and maybe they should. But by the same token, one should be able to figure it out without too much difficulty. If you know the specs, take a micrometer, and measure the ammo, one should be able to draw their own conclusion rather easily. If not....well you know where I'm going with this. I realize this was just a innocent question but it was the type of question that leaves me wondering if a reloading manual was ever read. Every reloader should read at least one. kerrdog, if you have read one or two manuals than please foregive me for sounding like an a$$ and I meant no disrespect. I just felt you should have known this from the get go. I apologize.
...... It just constantly amazes me the number of questions that are asked here that are explained in depth in a good reloading manual. I don't know if people are in too much of a hurry to just sit down and read, or if they just need some "I'll help you thru this" guidance. By the same token, if one doesn't understand the lingo or terminology used in a manual, this is absolutely the best place to get clarification. Sometimes, tho, I just feel that not enough "homework" was done.... i.e. digesting the info in a good, comprehensive manual.. and having a GOOD set of calipers... OK, I've said enuff.......
Kerrdog,
You wrote:
I only did so because the bullets were loose after FL sizing. The second batch I neck sized AFTER full length sizing, and that tightened them up. No crimping involved.
What do you mean "the bullets were loose?" Were they flopping around? Falling into the case? This statement worried me some as I have never had that happen to me. Could it be your expander ball is bigger than it should be?
Is sounds like the folks here have given some excellent advise. Although I might add that extra kick could be you experiencing excess pressures due to your crimp.
Just my two cents worth!!! Be safe!!!!!
You wrote:
I only did so because the bullets were loose after FL sizing. The second batch I neck sized AFTER full length sizing, and that tightened them up. No crimping involved.
What do you mean "the bullets were loose?" Were they flopping around? Falling into the case? This statement worried me some as I have never had that happen to me. Could it be your expander ball is bigger than it should be?
Is sounds like the folks here have given some excellent advise. Although I might add that extra kick could be you experiencing excess pressures due to your crimp.
Just my two cents worth!!! Be safe!!!!!
I checked out three popular reloading manuals from our local library. Each had a ton of information, but none of them started at "square one". Each manual assuming that the shooter has some knowledge of reloading. Much of the terminology I had never heard before, and just because the book had a glossary didn't guarantee that I would understand that practical application of the term. The best book I found, and now own, is an old Lyman reloading manual. It is concise, clear, and without the BS the industry has placed upon this "sport". I have been shooting for 40 years. Yes, I know something about shooting. But that doesn't make me an expert on bullets, loads, SAMMI, etc... so I searched for a forum. Hence, I am here!
When I said the bullets were "loose", I meant you could actually turn them in the neck with a slight up and down movement. That was after full length sizing only. It did not happen after neck sizing.
12-15-2010, 07:52 AM
#29
Typical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 588
If you are having problems with the neck size, you may want to re-visit the instructions that came with your lee dies. I had too. They need to be set right and you also need to put a lot of pressure when resizing. I also polished the mandrel to get the neck size tighter.
12-18-2010, 04:49 AM
#30
Fork Horn
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Southern New Hampshire
Posts: 190
I took another look at the pic of the brass and to me it looks just like what happens when you push the shoulder back to far.
Try this when setting up your FL sizer die;
Use one piece of brass for the initial setup.
If you have a tool that accurately measures your shoulder bump take that measurement first. If not you might want to look at this tool.
www.larrywillis.com
Install the die in your press per the instructions that came with the die and back it out another 1/2 turn. Lightly lube the body of the brass and run it up into the press and inspect the neck with a good magnifying grass. You should be able to see how much of the neck is being sized "stop ring" which should be somewhere around half way down the neck. Keep adjusting the die "downward" in small increments until the neck is being sized to the point "before" where the neck just meets the shoulder. Take another measurement of the shoulder and the brass should have grown a little. Make another adjustment to your die and take another measurement and keep making adjustments until your only bumping the shoulder back .001 - .002 and no further. Each time you run the brass into the die check to make sure you have enough lube on the brass so not to get it stuck in the die.
This should end your problem.
Bumping the shoulder back too far would also have an effect on your neck tension. If you don't have any or minimal resistant on the case neck running over the sizer button this is a big hint your not sizing properly. When the die is set up correctly, you should have a fair amount of resistance. To minimize this you could lube the inside of the neck though I feel it is not neccesary if the inside of the neck is cleaned properly. I use a brass bore brush on my RCBS case prep station. I also wrap "000" steel wool around the brush so it fits tighter in the neck. This will clean the powder residue from inside of the neck and the brass will size like if it were brand new brass. There is a stainless steel media tumbler made that will do as good of a job. I plan to buy one after the holidays because the whole unit will cost $265 but I've heard it is the last brass tumbler I will ever need to buy. The media will last forever!
http://www.stainlesstumblingmedia.com/
Good luck!
Try this when setting up your FL sizer die;
Use one piece of brass for the initial setup.
If you have a tool that accurately measures your shoulder bump take that measurement first. If not you might want to look at this tool.
www.larrywillis.com
Install the die in your press per the instructions that came with the die and back it out another 1/2 turn. Lightly lube the body of the brass and run it up into the press and inspect the neck with a good magnifying grass. You should be able to see how much of the neck is being sized "stop ring" which should be somewhere around half way down the neck. Keep adjusting the die "downward" in small increments until the neck is being sized to the point "before" where the neck just meets the shoulder. Take another measurement of the shoulder and the brass should have grown a little. Make another adjustment to your die and take another measurement and keep making adjustments until your only bumping the shoulder back .001 - .002 and no further. Each time you run the brass into the die check to make sure you have enough lube on the brass so not to get it stuck in the die.
This should end your problem.
Bumping the shoulder back too far would also have an effect on your neck tension. If you don't have any or minimal resistant on the case neck running over the sizer button this is a big hint your not sizing properly. When the die is set up correctly, you should have a fair amount of resistance. To minimize this you could lube the inside of the neck though I feel it is not neccesary if the inside of the neck is cleaned properly. I use a brass bore brush on my RCBS case prep station. I also wrap "000" steel wool around the brush so it fits tighter in the neck. This will clean the powder residue from inside of the neck and the brass will size like if it were brand new brass. There is a stainless steel media tumbler made that will do as good of a job. I plan to buy one after the holidays because the whole unit will cost $265 but I've heard it is the last brass tumbler I will ever need to buy. The media will last forever!
http://www.stainlesstumblingmedia.com/
Good luck!
Last edited by 7MMXBOLT; 12-18-2010 at 05:16 AM.