driftrider

The 115 grain .257cal bullet isn't exactly super long for caliber. It's designed to stabilize in a standard for caliber 1:10" barrel. The extra discussion on 'bullet wobble' is interesting, but my question was specifically about the terminal ballistics of the bullet, not the external ballistics. My rifle will tell me if the bullet is accurate enough or not.

Mike

Big Z

Sorry to hijack the thread driftrider; this new perspective is just something I had to challenge and understand better

afp

Yes, sorry to be party to the hijack, but it was an eye-opener for me as well tp learn the highest BC bulelts wasn't always the best choice. Highpoer shooters are happy to shoot 22 cal, 80 grain .420ish BC SMKs at 600 yds, and I have watched them shoot 6-10" groups with that combo--using iron sights.

Which brings to the next counter-intuitive concept. If I was shooting at 600 yds, even in the wind, I'd use 187 Bibs in a 300 WSM, or probably 129 grainers in a 6.5. At 600 yds, the wind doesn't have as much effect as it does at 1000, so you can use lower BC bullet with a slower twist and wind up with betetr scores. When you carry this idea through, you find the little BR guys shooting 58-68 grain bullets at 3300-3500 fps from 1x13 twist barrels. That is what it takes to shoot those sub 1/10th moa groups needed to win at little BR.

driftrider

As long as it shoots 1 MOA or better, I'm happy. This is for a deer rifle, not a super accurate benchrest rail gun. I already have a load that shoots great, but the Barnes bullets are very expensive. The Bergers cost half as much, and would allow me to spend more time at the range, and if they perform well on deer, I don't have to change anything to go hunting.

Mike

driftrider

I don't plan on shooting at ranges anywhere near what Ridge Runner regularly hunts whitetails at, but 4-500 yards isn't out of the question. If I were shooting a 257 Roberts, or even a 25-06 Rem, I wouldn't be as concerned. But the 257 Weatherby will squirt these bullets out at every bit of 3300fps, and I don't want them blasting a wide but shallow crater in the shoulder of a deer at 100 yards like a varmint bullet will do. It seems like the bullet holds together long enough to get into the vitals, but once the tiny meplat starts to open up, it blows up pretty good. If it grenades in the vitals, turning the heart and lungs into jello, then that's great, as long as it gets there. My Remington is factory stock, except that I adjusted the trigger down to 1.5lbs. It'll shoot the Barnes 100 grain Tipped TSX into 0.6-0.7 MOA average, and the best load I found for the 110 grain Nosler Accubond with IMR 7828 averaged just over 1 MOA. If I can achieve that kind of accuracy with the Berger VLD Hunting, which is a "match grade" bullet, then I'll be extremely happy.

Ridge Runner,

Berger sent me several loads for the 115gr VLD. The ones I'm interested in all use slower powders that fill the big case better.

These are:

Hodgdon Retumbo, 69.6gr for 3,300fps, 97.8% load density.
Ramshot Magnum, 70.1gr for 3,299fps, 92.5%
Reloder 25, 66.9gr for 3,287fps, 95.0%

All from a 26" bbl at a COAL of 3.170" which is the SAAMI max. My rifle has a typically long throat and a generous magazine length, so I can play with seating depth if I need to.

I'd lean toward Retumbo or Reloder 25 since they're extruded. I'm not sure about the spherical powder since I like to shoot all year round and hunt in cold weather. I'm curious as to your experiences with these powders and which one you'd start with.

Thanks,

Mike

afp

Well, I have seen slower twist barrels shoot better. The faster you spin it the more chance there is of flight path departures due to the longitudinal axis of the bullet not being colocated with the rotational axis. Again, that is why BR shooters use the slowest twist they can. They need every accuracy advantage they can find.

Hunting is different, because the bullet has work to do after it hits the target. A hunting bullet needs to remain stable when it hits the animal so it will properly penetrate, though on deer it probably doesn't matter. Hogs and Elk are a different story.

And I don't mean to sound harsh, but it is extremely rare for even a highly accurate hunting rifle to consistently shoot 1/3 to 1/2 moa at 1000 yds. We used to have guys bring their long range hunting rifles out the the 1000 yd line to see how they'd shoot. Many of these guys were competitive shooters who knew how to shoot 1k BR. Typically, a highly accurate, 10-12 lb+ hunting rifle--one that would shoot 1/3 to 1/2 MOA groups at 200 yds, would shoot 10-12" 5-shot groups at 1000 yds. The typcial BR rifles would shoot 5-7" groups at 1000 yds shooting side-by-side with the hunting rifles. I saw one exception, where a extremely good competitor got his very heavy hunting rifle to shoot a sub 5"group--once.

This is not a slam on such hunting rifles. Far from it, as a rifle that will hold three shots around 1 MOA out to 1000 yds will have no issue taking game cleanly. Besides, it would be a pain to haul a 15-17 lb BR rifle--with sand bags and bench--into the woods.

I'll shut up now. As is happening here, I usually find long range hunters don't really like to hear what a 1000 yd competition shooter has to say about making a rifle accurate at long range. However, you can't say no one ever tried to tell you.....................

driftrider

afp,

You haven't been around here very long, but Ridge Runner is huntingnet's most vocal hard core long range hunter. Last year he posted his personal longest kill shot at 1,350 yards with his 7mm Allen Mag. He knows what he's talking about.

Mike

jeepkid

Here's a fast twist barrel shooting lighter bullets...pretty okay if you ask me...

afp

Don't my target pics, groups, and 1k BR trophies tell you that I know what I'm talking about as well?

afp

Please don't think that I am disparaging the kind of shooting you are doing. It is a different game than LR BR. The fact that you have settled on a 160 Accubond helps make my point that ultra high BC isn't the most important factor in making long range hits.....and that is my main point here. That and I know you know that just as my 1K BR rifle would be a poor choice for long range hunting; your LR deer rifle wouldn't do so well at 1K BR. This makes sense, as they were built with completely different purposes in mind.

My rifle needed to be able to consistent shoot 5-shot groups of around 1/2 MOA at 1000 yds regardless of how hot the barrel was. My rig required 28 MOA to be centered at 1000 yds. Your rifle needs the ability to quickly center at random ranges and hit within a 1 MOA circle. It also needs to be somewhat portable. Swap roles with either rig and they will be at the bottom of the pack.

When I was competing, we'd always fire at a 12" square piece of tractor blade that was painted green. We called in our "gong" it was set up on a dirt bank at 975 yds for the sole purpose of making sure guys were close enough to be on paper before we started the sighter period. If we didn't do that, guys with new rigs/loads could take a long time to even find paper.

Anyway, that first shot for me was always from a clean, cold barrel, with the scope settings I had dialed in from the previous match. That first hit was usually very close to the gong, close enough to take a deer, and that always suprised me given the windy conditions we shot in.

I wound up doing my load devlopment at 100 yds through an Oehler 35 Chrono. The load that shot 3.5" at 1000 yds never shot better than 1/2" at 100, but it was a nice round, 5-shot group with extreme spreads of 11 fps with both new and fireformed brass. We always looked for round groups at .5 to .6" with low extreme spreads and would pick a load that printed a little larger group if it had a better ES. 20 FPS of ES equals 2.5" of vertical dispersion at 1000 yds.