Rifle Loony

I've seen just the opposite, from my experience...

It's best used though,as an extreme example rather than practice, in that we'd all likely agree that same brand brass is a given if some measure of consistancy is expected. Where the extreme of trying an OCW load in different brass becomes a good example is showing that thelesser differences in same brand/lot #brass become even less of a factor.

IOW, I'd hope we can agree that a huge difference in case capacity between brand X and brand Y is "not reallya good thing", but a smaller difference across a lot # of brand X,OR brand Y is even less of "not reallya good thing". For that reason, and with the example of "different brass", I've found that weighing cases in the same lot#is largely a waste of time, when an OCW load is involved......

I'm all for simplicity in obaining good results from a complicated system.....

bigcountry

OCW and various case brands totally work against each other. It violates the OCW whole idea of finding harmonic nodes. I have found situations where remington can hold1 more grain or morethan Norma, or Federal. Ladder methods just won't fly with that. Well, with people who understands what the method is about anyway.

Do you have any idea how many articles in Rifle mag, Precision Shooter, etc has been wrote on this stuff?

If you find it works for you, then your set. I suggest everyone tries it and find out what its all about. I just know I sure won't use it as the only method for load development. some powder/ load combos won't work with any method and clutters the data even more.

Rifle Loony

Well here comes the argument that I mentioned I might get...

Everything that Big Country and Ridge Runner posted is every bit the evidence that they really do not understand what optimal charge weight is all about, nor can they comprehend simple statements in english such as....

"It's best used though,as an extreme example rather than practice, in that we'd all likely agree that same brand brass is a given if some measure of consistancy is expected. Where the extreme of trying an OCW load in different brass becomes a good example is showing that thelesser differences in same brand/lot #brass become even less of a factor."

I can argue the pros of OCW until this thread gets locked or someone gets banned, so with that said, I offer upthe challengeto both of them to delve into their "methods" and give illustration of a load work upsystem that beats OCW and the astute attentionit offers to barrel harmonics. It would help to offer up sub MOA references at extended ranges with hunting rifles that have nothing modified save a trigger tune.

I'm here to only argue that a logical and educated choice of powder be made, an informed and experienced choice of bullet be made, the most affordable choice of brass be made, and the quality of gear can substantiate the effort....nothing more, nothing less.

bigcountry

Enlighten us, so the "every bit the evidence". Not sure you can use a phrase like that. loon, there is no reason to start bashing people when they don't agree with you. I am fairly certain you have been here before with the same jam. Do you realize how many tests and articles has been written on the subject? How are you qualified? What makes you the expert. Blow us away.

How would you know that? Just because one disagrees with you, sure doesn't mean "they really do not understand what optimal charge weight is all about, nor can they comprehend simple statements in english such as".

Saying that means you are all knowing. Are you saying your all knowing of all things? I bet if you would stick around and keep an open mind, you might learn a thing or two.

Sir, I know what harmonics are. And it's not just the wiggling of a barrel. I have done many labortory writeups and tests on harmonic properties of certain materials related to Electro-optic world.

Rifle Loony

I opened the floor to you sir, since you decided to attempt an argument, by replying to my posts, with barbed sentiment...

I'll play nice if you do, so teach me something.

I'm always willing to learn.

What's your load work-up system, since that's the on-topic topic of this thread.

Rifle Loony

RR...

Are you suggesting that OCW means "max charge/max pressure/don't dare to try it any higher"..?

Just trying to cypher your perception, not arguing......

OCW addresses barrel harmonics and the function they have on a measure of "accuracy".

Pressure and velocity are only a result of the entire system in motion, kinda like how gas milage and speed relate to a speed limit sign.

bigcountry

Several tools available good ole fashioned fun and load workup. Some like std dev., and extreme spread, but I have kinda proven that wrong many times, but it does give you useful data if you plot it versus load. Ladder method you mentioned. Which by the way, can be useful, but needs to be repeated a few times at least, to get useful data and I find really only useful in a semi-premium gun at best. In other words, trying to do it on a dud, will produce dud results. A barrel is a dynamic beast to say the least, and when you add humidity, heat, fouling, it gets down right tough to interpret ladder method load workup. Definatly can be done, but many trips are warranted.

Lastly, good ole shoot and see if there is promise. If you see a load within a grain there is promise. Next start changing OAL by some differnet amounts. I have found changing COL can have a dramatic impact on accuracy, and this has been proven many times to be the effect of your harmonics nodes you mention.

bigcountry

I bought into the whole OCW thing at one time pretty heavy. But I was alway complaining how finicky loads were. I stopped by Melvin Forbes place in WV on my way to Charleston, and that guy was a wealth of knowledge. He showed me how if a barrel is that finicky with 1gr difference, your compensating for other issues with the gun. Anyone that knows his guns NULA, knows he is big on bedding to take out those variations with harmonic nodes.

thndrchiken

Ok, let's throw another twist into the equation. Not only is powder temperature sensitive the barrel harmonics will change with a change in temperature and humidity. Temperature will affect the the amount of flex the barrel will experience, humidity will affect the barreled action to stock fit. Now before you get your panties in a bunch yea, yea, yea I know not all rifles are stocked in kevlar or synthetic and yes even laminate will show some sign of expansion perhaps nowhere close to wood but some.

bigcountry

I agree. Thats what I have found with the ladder method. Its especially transparent with thin barrels like on my micro medallion. But I will admit, its a great method like on a heavy barreled gun like FN SPR I shoot.