HOW DO YOU FIND BEST ACCURACY WHEN WORKING UP LOADS?
05-12-2008, 09:18 AM
#11
Join Date: May 2008
Location:
Posts: 499
RE: HOW DO YOU FIND BEST ACCURACY WHEN WORKING UP LOADS?
Here's a link...
OCW:
http://home.earthlink.net/~dannewberry/dannewberrysoptimalchargeweightloaddevelopment/
OCW:
http://home.earthlink.net/~dannewberry/dannewberrysoptimalchargeweightloaddevelopment/
05-12-2008, 08:49 PM
#12
Typical Buck
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Wide open Nevada
Posts: 515
RE: HOW DO YOU FIND BEST ACCURACY WHEN WORKING UP LOADS?
1 cases ; yes they can make a huge differance .In my 06' an aquired 150 rnds of what I was told was 1 lot shot 3 separate groups about 8" apart . .2 grains of water differance in case cap. Best example Fiocci load 9900 same load in a Federal case 13500 .
2 Primers NEVER substitute a MAG for a standard in a load that is worked up or even close to max . Best example Win 209 replaced with a Federal 209a 3000 psi . Thats alot in a shotgun that is maxed out at 15000 .
3 I load a minmum of 5 rnds I start low and go up 1 grn inciments and shoot the top down . When the group gets to MY min or smaller I workup .2 at a time . I have 3 pet powders in my rifles and 3 for my shotguns 2 for my pistols . I shoot Unique in all 3 .
4 If you have a known factory load that works well start with those bullets and brass .
2 Primers NEVER substitute a MAG for a standard in a load that is worked up or even close to max . Best example Win 209 replaced with a Federal 209a 3000 psi . Thats alot in a shotgun that is maxed out at 15000 .
3 I load a minmum of 5 rnds I start low and go up 1 grn inciments and shoot the top down . When the group gets to MY min or smaller I workup .2 at a time . I have 3 pet powders in my rifles and 3 for my shotguns 2 for my pistols . I shoot Unique in all 3 .
4 If you have a known factory load that works well start with those bullets and brass .
05-13-2008, 05:17 AM
#13
Join Date: May 2008
Location:
Posts: 499
RE: HOW DO YOU FIND BEST ACCURACY WHEN WORKING UP LOADS?
If brass makes thata big difference then how is it that with using the OCW load principles, a good group can be shot using three or four or five different makes of brass? I'm not advocating the mix and match of brass as standard practice, as that wouldn't be prudent with consistancy in mind...only saying that with OCW addressing harmonics issues, differences in case capacity become moot. Which in reality negates muchthe need to fuss over weighing cases or fretting over case lots. I only use Lapua brass where it's made for my chamberings, but I worry none about lot#'s or case weights.
Same as different guns, chambers and barrels...I've shot amazingly good groups with OCW loads that were worked up in a different rifle. Which in some circles is considered taboo.
I concur on the primer thing though, it's easy enough to obtain the proper primer for the application so that's ground I consider sacred. I have one commonstandard primer I use for rifles and one commonstandard for pistols. That's never failed me.
Same as different guns, chambers and barrels...I've shot amazingly good groups with OCW loads that were worked up in a different rifle. Which in some circles is considered taboo.
I concur on the primer thing though, it's easy enough to obtain the proper primer for the application so that's ground I consider sacred. I have one commonstandard primer I use for rifles and one commonstandard for pistols. That's never failed me.
05-13-2008, 04:57 PM
#14
Fork Horn
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 260
RE: HOW DO YOU FIND BEST ACCURACY WHEN WORKING UP LOADS?
ORIGINAL: Rifle Loony
If brass makes thata big difference then how is it that with using the OCW load principles, a good group can be shot using three or four or five different makes of brass? I'm not advocating the mix and match of brass as standard practice, as that wouldn't be prudent with consistancy in mind...only saying that with OCW addressing harmonics issues, differences in case capacity become moot. Which in reality negates muchthe need to fuss over weighing cases or fretting over case lots. I only use Lapua brass where it's made for my chamberings, but I worry none about lot#'s or case weights.
Same as different guns, chambers and barrels...I've shot amazingly good groups with OCW loads that were worked up in a different rifle. Which in some circles is considered taboo.
I concur on the primer thing though, it's easy enough to obtain the proper primer for the application so that's ground I consider sacred. I have one commonstandard primer I use for rifles and one commonstandard for pistols. That's never failed me.
If brass makes thata big difference then how is it that with using the OCW load principles, a good group can be shot using three or four or five different makes of brass? I'm not advocating the mix and match of brass as standard practice, as that wouldn't be prudent with consistancy in mind...only saying that with OCW addressing harmonics issues, differences in case capacity become moot. Which in reality negates muchthe need to fuss over weighing cases or fretting over case lots. I only use Lapua brass where it's made for my chamberings, but I worry none about lot#'s or case weights.
Same as different guns, chambers and barrels...I've shot amazingly good groups with OCW loads that were worked up in a different rifle. Which in some circles is considered taboo.
I concur on the primer thing though, it's easy enough to obtain the proper primer for the application so that's ground I consider sacred. I have one commonstandard primer I use for rifles and one commonstandard for pistols. That's never failed me.
Errors are magified when the load is not tuned to the barrel harmonics, therefore things like brass capacity can make a big difference in non-OCW loads.
Theoretically speaking of course.
05-13-2008, 08:40 PM
#15
Join Date: May 2008
Location:
Posts: 499
RE: HOW DO YOU FIND BEST ACCURACY WHEN WORKING UP LOADS?
Wolf,
I have, and have had for a long time,a full and clear understanding of the OCW priniples, and was, with my "question",merely begging to differ with those that consider component differences as "critical" to a productive result.
I am the firstto admit consistency is the key, but much can be proved as non-critical by using the OCW method...
I cannot argue with what I've done and seen myself, and I'm probably one of the most skeptical Rifle Loonies out there until I have seen it formyself. I've spent much of my earlier years chasing the tiniest groups, getting them, and then have them fall apart with a component change or with a shift of the weather. When I became aware of OCW and the actual physics of the entire system...much became clear.
It's almost humorous when I see guys struggle for that last nth of an inch of load tinkeringjust to shoot an MOA group at 100 yards, knowing that just a little more understanding would put them well under that magical single MOAat 5, 6 or 700 yards.
When you have a system with so many effects of Physics acting upon it, it's only prudent to try to understand it all....and once understood the simplistic beauty of it becomes apparent, and we begin to wonder why we tried to make it so complicated.
My advice will always be to pick a bullet for it's function and purpose, pick a powder that provides the efficiency of a high load density at max charge, reload with good quality dies...and work up via the Optimal Charge Weight Method.
It's amazing what just those concerns can produce.....
I have, and have had for a long time,a full and clear understanding of the OCW priniples, and was, with my "question",merely begging to differ with those that consider component differences as "critical" to a productive result.
I am the firstto admit consistency is the key, but much can be proved as non-critical by using the OCW method...
I cannot argue with what I've done and seen myself, and I'm probably one of the most skeptical Rifle Loonies out there until I have seen it formyself. I've spent much of my earlier years chasing the tiniest groups, getting them, and then have them fall apart with a component change or with a shift of the weather. When I became aware of OCW and the actual physics of the entire system...much became clear.
It's almost humorous when I see guys struggle for that last nth of an inch of load tinkeringjust to shoot an MOA group at 100 yards, knowing that just a little more understanding would put them well under that magical single MOAat 5, 6 or 700 yards.
When you have a system with so many effects of Physics acting upon it, it's only prudent to try to understand it all....and once understood the simplistic beauty of it becomes apparent, and we begin to wonder why we tried to make it so complicated.
My advice will always be to pick a bullet for it's function and purpose, pick a powder that provides the efficiency of a high load density at max charge, reload with good quality dies...and work up via the Optimal Charge Weight Method.
It's amazing what just those concerns can produce.....
05-14-2008, 08:29 AM
#16
Fork Horn
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 260
RE: HOW DO YOU FIND BEST ACCURACY WHEN WORKING UP LOADS?
Sometimes I type before I think. I was just pointing out that differences in case capacity make a difference with methods other than OCW, but I realize you never said they didn't. I actually just saw an article about brands of brass. The cheap stuff grouped almost as good as the expensive stuff. I don't know if they grouped in the same place, as and OCW load should.
I know quite a bit about OCW in theory, I have been trying to put it in practice.
I haven't had a lot of success. I am too much of a dabbler, I buy one box of bullets and then get something else the next time. Same with powder.
I know quite a bit about OCW in theory, I have been trying to put it in practice.
I haven't had a lot of success. I am too much of a dabbler, I buy one box of bullets and then get something else the next time. Same with powder.
05-14-2008, 09:43 AM
#17
Fork Horn
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 159
RE: HOW DO YOU FIND BEST ACCURACY WHEN WORKING UP LOADS?
If your reloading for a boltgun start with the bullet ogive 0.010" off the lands and proceed to work up to your max pressure load. Now you have a max load then load 3-5 rounds at that OCL, then 3-5 rounds at 0.005" less OCL and countiue untill you have 3-5 rounds from 0.010" to 0.030" measured from the lands(riflein). Now shoot them and see which OCL gives the best accuracy. Due the same for each powder/bullet combination.
Anytime you subsatut any new component back off the charge and work up to the now new max load. Its the only safe way to do it. Some cartridges and components change little and some have very big changes and you don't know untill you shoot them.
If this is a gun with a tubular magizine like most leveractions you will have to crimp and adjust the powder charge tofind the best accuracy either at or short of the max loading.
Anytime you subsatut any new component back off the charge and work up to the now new max load. Its the only safe way to do it. Some cartridges and components change little and some have very big changes and you don't know untill you shoot them.
If this is a gun with a tubular magizine like most leveractions you will have to crimp and adjust the powder charge tofind the best accuracy either at or short of the max loading.
05-14-2008, 10:23 AM
#18
Join Date: May 2008
Location:
Posts: 499
RE: HOW DO YOU FIND BEST ACCURACY WHEN WORKING UP LOADS?
TJ...
As with most "bolt guns", magazine length is a governing factor, and often doesn't allow a close seat to the lands.
My '06, as an example,with 168 grain Barnes TSX's is seated .050" off the lands due to mag box constraints, and is a solid 1/2 MOA load via anOCW work up and confirmedout to 500 yards. Tweaking COAL is best left as a final fine-tune after the sweet spot is discovered, and in the case of my '06, it wasn't needed.
Just shooting for the max load isn't always best either, as the best load can often be overlooked. I've lots of rifles that tuned in almost at a max charge, but none ever shot the best all the way to the top.
As with most "bolt guns", magazine length is a governing factor, and often doesn't allow a close seat to the lands.
My '06, as an example,with 168 grain Barnes TSX's is seated .050" off the lands due to mag box constraints, and is a solid 1/2 MOA load via anOCW work up and confirmedout to 500 yards. Tweaking COAL is best left as a final fine-tune after the sweet spot is discovered, and in the case of my '06, it wasn't needed.
Just shooting for the max load isn't always best either, as the best load can often be overlooked. I've lots of rifles that tuned in almost at a max charge, but none ever shot the best all the way to the top.
05-14-2008, 12:16 PM
#20
Guest
Posts: n/a
RE: HOW DO YOU FIND BEST ACCURACY WHEN WORKING UP LOADS?
ORIGINAL: Rifle Loony
If brass makes thata big difference then how is it that with using the OCW load principles, a good group can be shot using three or four or five different makes of brass?
If brass makes thata big difference then how is it that with using the OCW load principles, a good group can be shot using three or four or five different makes of brass?
I know from my experience it does not work well with different types of brass.