Stirring the pot 8X vs 10X
11-06-2008 | 06:32 PM
#11
Thread Starter
Fork Horn
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
From: New Mexico
RE: Stirring the pot 8X vs 10X
ORIGINAL: skeeter 7MM
In the instance of field judging animals down to inches at distances such as 500 yards(+)bins in my hands of any mag wouldn't be my choice. JMO but I spend a fair bit of time peering at antlers in a given year and if I am long distance field judging bins aren't the tool I chose for the application, it's a spotting scope on a pod.
ORIGINAL: JNTURK
IMO, when trying to look at antler size at further distances (500+) 12 yards can make a difference if you are looking at inches on an animals head.
ORIGINAL: vichris
Most folk really don't consider how little they gain in magnification on a 10x
At 500 yds with 8x the subject looks to be 62 yds vs 50 yds with the 10x......... it is negligable. Yes the performance on an 8 x far outweighs that little extra power that in most cases isn't realized anyway because they are right at the limit of what you can hold steady enough to see the detail.
BTW I've been looking at that Swaro 8.5x42 EL. Wish I could afford those..... probably the best peice of glass on the market today.
ORIGINAL: skeeter 7MM
I believe as well 8x's are the right balance/mag for use/performance/ in field conditions. If you need detail at distance the logical step to me is a spotter on a tripod. I always thought bigger was better until I realized when it comes to some things like opticsa point ofdiminishing return factors in. Less light to the pupil, ability to hold on target for extended periods, weight, etc. I moved my bins to the 8x and never lost a beat but rather I feel I gained. In recent I have proclaimed my approvalfor my 10x42 EL's here but they were switched for 8's this fall - no regrets. I hunt where there are places where you can watch your dog run away from home for 3 days, yes it can be prettyflat/open in the saskatchewan prairie. The extra 2x didn't do enough in area of bringing it in even on high end glass. I like many used the lower to mid range bins and noticed more performance issues between a comparable 8 vs a 10 then with the swaro's. The only reason I bought the 10x ELwas the price so when I had the opportunity to trade for new 8's straight across I jumped on it and no regrets.
I believe as well 8x's are the right balance/mag for use/performance/ in field conditions. If you need detail at distance the logical step to me is a spotter on a tripod. I always thought bigger was better until I realized when it comes to some things like opticsa point ofdiminishing return factors in. Less light to the pupil, ability to hold on target for extended periods, weight, etc. I moved my bins to the 8x and never lost a beat but rather I feel I gained. In recent I have proclaimed my approvalfor my 10x42 EL's here but they were switched for 8's this fall - no regrets. I hunt where there are places where you can watch your dog run away from home for 3 days, yes it can be prettyflat/open in the saskatchewan prairie. The extra 2x didn't do enough in area of bringing it in even on high end glass. I like many used the lower to mid range bins and noticed more performance issues between a comparable 8 vs a 10 then with the swaro's. The only reason I bought the 10x ELwas the price so when I had the opportunity to trade for new 8's straight across I jumped on it and no regrets.
At 500 yds with 8x the subject looks to be 62 yds vs 50 yds with the 10x......... it is negligable. Yes the performance on an 8 x far outweighs that little extra power that in most cases isn't realized anyway because they are right at the limit of what you can hold steady enough to see the detail.
BTW I've been looking at that Swaro 8.5x42 EL. Wish I could afford those..... probably the best peice of glass on the market today.
11-12-2008 | 08:07 PM
#13
Typical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 534
Likes: 0
From: Delaware OH USA
RE: Stirring the pot 8X vs 10X
Interesting. . . So, yes, I will bite. Exit pupil and optical quality the same, I do like a 10 x out west. So you say I can't hold it as well. I can leaning agains a pack, or another rest. Yes, a rest is part of hunting.
Now for most hunter's especially archery... First, I prefer 7x as an overall balance, but for a pure Ohio deer bino, I think a good 5x or 6x would be best. I want something small, quick to the eye and the highest possible resolution for separating the laying whitetail from the very whitetail looking scrub brush next to it. My 7x binos do this ok, but are just a bit big, a bit heavy and a bit over powered for looking at brush 25 yards away with deer in it. Still, they are ok, and frankly. . .Where do I buy a quality 5 x 35 compact bino?
Last, we have talked about magnification, and objective size, but what about spotting game. Game spotting is about color rendition and resolution. Resolution is kind of about the resolution chart thing, but those are black and white for a reason. Deer a deer colored and live in a roughly deer colored world. This is where high dollar bino's and a few reasonably priced ones jump in. Picking deer out is about having glass and coatings which will allow you to separate a solid average colored deer from a multi, but almost the same colored background. Hint, porro prisims do this better than roofs. For under $300, you can probably get better porro bino's than roofs. Over $400, they are more similar. In the end, money buys coatings and designs which make for good color rendition and therefore deer spotting ability.
Another important game spotting piece is field of view. So, if 300 ft at 1000 yds is ok, there are quite a few binos to look at, but to get 400 or more, wow, that narrows the field. Deer must be in your lens for you to pick them out. Simple as that. At 100 yards, this is 30 vs. 40. . .At 25 yards, 8 vs. 10. That 2 feet might be the difference between an antler glint in or out of your FOV.
Last, cost and weight. Simply put, cheap light binos are more likely to be in my hand or around my neck.
Cost:
Porro is cheaper than Roof
low mag is cheaper than high mag
Cases and lens caps and doodads cost extra to throw in the box. This extra comes out of lens coatings, focus systems, ergonomic design, places where you don't see it until they are used in the field a few times.
Auto focus doesn't work, but Steiner's do!
Weight:
Porros weigh more
Glass weighs more
solid housings weigh more
include laser range finders weigh more(separate is best)
Warranty:
Good bino's have good warranty
Electronics usually lower the warranty to almost nothing
Last, don't use bino's as a spotting scope. Out west, you do need a good spotter. Unfortunately there is nothing cheap or reasonable about good spotter pricing!
Now for most hunter's especially archery... First, I prefer 7x as an overall balance, but for a pure Ohio deer bino, I think a good 5x or 6x would be best. I want something small, quick to the eye and the highest possible resolution for separating the laying whitetail from the very whitetail looking scrub brush next to it. My 7x binos do this ok, but are just a bit big, a bit heavy and a bit over powered for looking at brush 25 yards away with deer in it. Still, they are ok, and frankly. . .Where do I buy a quality 5 x 35 compact bino?
Last, we have talked about magnification, and objective size, but what about spotting game. Game spotting is about color rendition and resolution. Resolution is kind of about the resolution chart thing, but those are black and white for a reason. Deer a deer colored and live in a roughly deer colored world. This is where high dollar bino's and a few reasonably priced ones jump in. Picking deer out is about having glass and coatings which will allow you to separate a solid average colored deer from a multi, but almost the same colored background. Hint, porro prisims do this better than roofs. For under $300, you can probably get better porro bino's than roofs. Over $400, they are more similar. In the end, money buys coatings and designs which make for good color rendition and therefore deer spotting ability.
Another important game spotting piece is field of view. So, if 300 ft at 1000 yds is ok, there are quite a few binos to look at, but to get 400 or more, wow, that narrows the field. Deer must be in your lens for you to pick them out. Simple as that. At 100 yards, this is 30 vs. 40. . .At 25 yards, 8 vs. 10. That 2 feet might be the difference between an antler glint in or out of your FOV.
Last, cost and weight. Simply put, cheap light binos are more likely to be in my hand or around my neck.
Cost:
Porro is cheaper than Roof
low mag is cheaper than high mag
Cases and lens caps and doodads cost extra to throw in the box. This extra comes out of lens coatings, focus systems, ergonomic design, places where you don't see it until they are used in the field a few times.
Auto focus doesn't work, but Steiner's do!
Weight:
Porros weigh more
Glass weighs more
solid housings weigh more
include laser range finders weigh more(separate is best)
Warranty:
Good bino's have good warranty
Electronics usually lower the warranty to almost nothing
Last, don't use bino's as a spotting scope. Out west, you do need a good spotter. Unfortunately there is nothing cheap or reasonable about good spotter pricing!
11-13-2008 | 06:38 AM
#14
Thread Starter
Fork Horn
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
From: New Mexico
RE: Stirring the pot 8X vs 10X
ORIGINAL: nksmfamjp
Interesting. . . So, yes, I will bite. Exit pupil and optical quality the same, I do like a 10 x out west. So you say I can't hold it as well. I can leaning agains a pack, or another rest. Yes, a rest is part of hunting.
Now for most hunter's especially archery... First, I prefer 7x as an overall balance, but for a pure Ohio deer bino, I think a good 5x or 6x would be best. I want something small, quick to the eye and the highest possible resolution for separating the laying whitetail from the very whitetail looking scrub brush next to it. My 7x binos do this ok, but are just a bit big, a bit heavy and a bit over powered for looking at brush 25 yards away with deer in it. Still, they are ok, and frankly. . .Where do I buy a quality 5 x 35 compact bino?
Last, we have talked about magnification, and objective size, but what about spotting game. Game spotting is about color rendition and resolution. Resolution is kind of about the resolution chart thing, but those are black and white for a reason. Deer a deer colored and live in a roughly deer colored world. This is where high dollar bino's and a few reasonably priced ones jump in. Picking deer out is about having glass and coatings which will allow you to separate a solid average colored deer from a multi, but almost the same colored background. Hint, porro prisims do this better than roofs. For under $300, you can probably get better porro bino's than roofs. Over $400, they are more similar. In the end, money buys coatings and designs which make for good color rendition and therefore deer spotting ability.
Another important game spotting piece is field of view. So, if 300 ft at 1000 yds is ok, there are quite a few binos to look at, but to get 400 or more, wow, that narrows the field. Deer must be in your lens for you to pick them out. Simple as that. At 100 yards, this is 30 vs. 40. . .At 25 yards, 8 vs. 10. That 2 feet might be the difference between an antler glint in or out of your FOV.
Last, cost and weight. Simply put, cheap light binos are more likely to be in my hand or around my neck.
Cost:
Porro is cheaper than Roof
low mag is cheaper than high mag
Cases and lens caps and doodads cost extra to throw in the box. This extra comes out of lens coatings, focus systems, ergonomic design, places where you don't see it until they are used in the field a few times.
Auto focus doesn't work, but Steiner's do!
Weight:
Porros weigh more
Glass weighs more
solid housings weigh more
include laser range finders weigh more(separate is best)
Warranty:
Good bino's have good warranty
Electronics usually lower the warranty to almost nothing
Last, don't use bino's as a spotting scope. Out west, you do need a good spotter. Unfortunately there is nothing cheap or reasonable about good spotter pricing!
Interesting. . . So, yes, I will bite. Exit pupil and optical quality the same, I do like a 10 x out west. So you say I can't hold it as well. I can leaning agains a pack, or another rest. Yes, a rest is part of hunting.
Now for most hunter's especially archery... First, I prefer 7x as an overall balance, but for a pure Ohio deer bino, I think a good 5x or 6x would be best. I want something small, quick to the eye and the highest possible resolution for separating the laying whitetail from the very whitetail looking scrub brush next to it. My 7x binos do this ok, but are just a bit big, a bit heavy and a bit over powered for looking at brush 25 yards away with deer in it. Still, they are ok, and frankly. . .Where do I buy a quality 5 x 35 compact bino?
Last, we have talked about magnification, and objective size, but what about spotting game. Game spotting is about color rendition and resolution. Resolution is kind of about the resolution chart thing, but those are black and white for a reason. Deer a deer colored and live in a roughly deer colored world. This is where high dollar bino's and a few reasonably priced ones jump in. Picking deer out is about having glass and coatings which will allow you to separate a solid average colored deer from a multi, but almost the same colored background. Hint, porro prisims do this better than roofs. For under $300, you can probably get better porro bino's than roofs. Over $400, they are more similar. In the end, money buys coatings and designs which make for good color rendition and therefore deer spotting ability.
Another important game spotting piece is field of view. So, if 300 ft at 1000 yds is ok, there are quite a few binos to look at, but to get 400 or more, wow, that narrows the field. Deer must be in your lens for you to pick them out. Simple as that. At 100 yards, this is 30 vs. 40. . .At 25 yards, 8 vs. 10. That 2 feet might be the difference between an antler glint in or out of your FOV.
Last, cost and weight. Simply put, cheap light binos are more likely to be in my hand or around my neck.
Cost:
Porro is cheaper than Roof
low mag is cheaper than high mag
Cases and lens caps and doodads cost extra to throw in the box. This extra comes out of lens coatings, focus systems, ergonomic design, places where you don't see it until they are used in the field a few times.
Auto focus doesn't work, but Steiner's do!
Weight:
Porros weigh more
Glass weighs more
solid housings weigh more
include laser range finders weigh more(separate is best)
Warranty:
Good bino's have good warranty
Electronics usually lower the warranty to almost nothing
Last, don't use bino's as a spotting scope. Out west, you do need a good spotter. Unfortunately there is nothing cheap or reasonable about good spotter pricing!
WOW
Very well put. I can't say there's much I disagree with here.
I do have a question though. You say in the 1st pargraph you like the 10x for "out west". Then in the last paragraph you say that you need a good spotter for "out west". I can see your well thought out reasons for FOV, color rendition,and porro prism....etc. Why the redundancy on power for out west?
I live out west and honestly don't spend that much time on a bluff over looking miles ofcountry (yes I know.... thats just my hunting style). I know some states like WY or MT have lots of that type terrain (I may be forced to change my hunting style there). But even then don't your points about FOV, porro prisms, and ergonamic designs, make more sense when glassing "big country"with hand helds........(and a rest)?
Now..... auto focus???? I've never given a 2nd thought to them. I'm not familar with Steiner auto focus.
Thanks for a well thought out post.
11-13-2008 | 01:14 PM
#15
Typical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 534
Likes: 0
From: Delaware OH USA
RE: Stirring the pot 8X vs 10X
Often I found myself sitting on top of a knoll in eastern MT looking out over some open country that we would say was so open, you could watch your dog run away for three days!
Game was often spotted about 3/4 to 1.5 miles away. The 10x with a rest was a nice tool. Sure a 40x spotter would be nice, but the mirage during antelope season can make anything over about 15x useless. Just my experience and the spotters used were not the best. Carrying an extra spotter which may not be usable was not for me. it is a spot and stalk style I often find myself using in MT. Also, at the 300yd study point in the stalk, 10x is a bit nicer for judging game. Since I was never looking at game under 100 yds away, I rarely had FOV issues. JME
Game was often spotted about 3/4 to 1.5 miles away. The 10x with a rest was a nice tool. Sure a 40x spotter would be nice, but the mirage during antelope season can make anything over about 15x useless. Just my experience and the spotters used were not the best. Carrying an extra spotter which may not be usable was not for me. it is a spot and stalk style I often find myself using in MT. Also, at the 300yd study point in the stalk, 10x is a bit nicer for judging game. Since I was never looking at game under 100 yds away, I rarely had FOV issues. JME
11-24-2008 | 11:47 AM
#16
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
RE: Stirring the pot 8X vs 10X
I like this post it has a lot of information. I have allready on my own left the 12X and 10Xs in the cabinet and about 2 years ago went with a pair of 8X32 because of size and weight and I can hold them still on Oryx well out toand over 500 yards.
My question is for a working man how do we get a decent pair of binos that dont cast as much as my gun. I put a decent scope on my gun but IMO a scope is for shooting not spotting.
Thanks
James
My question is for a working man how do we get a decent pair of binos that dont cast as much as my gun. I put a decent scope on my gun but IMO a scope is for shooting not spotting.
Thanks
James
11-24-2008 | 02:10 PM
#17
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,867
Likes: 0
From: central Ky
RE: Stirring the pot 8X vs 10X
Personally,I'm sticking with my 10x-42mm binos because: I cannot afford excellent binos (just decent 1s) so to get resolution I need I've got to go with 10x,my vision is going downhill so there's a magical point somewhere between 8x and 10x which enables me to "see" stuff that I can't with the lower power binos,also,95% of the time when I'm hunting,I usually have a rest closeby-even if it's nothing more than a tree trunk or good size limb to brace on. Also,the 4.2 exit pupil is just bright enough that when it gets dark enough that they "go dark",it signals end of legal shooting hours. I've been using 10x binos for YEARS so I'm pretty well used to them.
11-24-2008 | 06:06 PM
#18
Typical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 534
Likes: 0
From: Delaware OH USA
RE: Stirring the pot 8X vs 10X
ORIGINAL: jsmithnm
. . . .My question is for a working man how do we get a decent pair of binos that dont cast as much as my gun. . . .
. . . .My question is for a working man how do we get a decent pair of binos that dont cast as much as my gun. . . .
Also, relatively good $100 binos are not like looking through a scope with the caps on.
The keys to value are to shop porros, low power,large exit pupilbino's in the bargain range. This will make cheap seem better than they really are. . .
For example, usually, I can find a cheap6 x 30 porro for about the same price as a 10 x 21 roof. IMO, for general hunting, I will be much happier with the heavier low mag porro. This is how good "working man" binos are found.
The next step up is maybe a well reviewed $300 bino like Swifts, Nikon and maybe Leupolds.
Then, there is a $500 - $700 price point which is some better.
A $1000 price point which you have to be pretty good to define why you want these.
A $1500 + price point, but I don't have anything but store time with those.
For my money, my 7 x 42 Bushnell Discoverers are doing great for me. Heck, I can pretty much see in the dark with them. I can see through the brush way better than eyes only. All that for about $300.
12-01-2008 | 08:19 AM
#19
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
RE: Stirring the pot 8X vs 10X
Thanks, My last ones ran meup tothe $180 range but like I said I went with bushnell excurshion 8X32 and thay are very good in low light and I can hold them steady.At least when I see somethingI can look it over andhave the confidence that Iknow what I am shooting.
12-01-2008 | 09:21 PM
#20
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,192
Likes: 0
From: Rivesville, WV
RE: Stirring the pot 8X vs 10X
You guys may not believe this but quality optics can be considered a good investment in a couple of ways. First you can use them all your life, so you are investing in yourself. Second they can be a monetary investment. I gave $1200 for my Swaro 8X56 SLC's. A fellow begged me to sell them to him the other day for $1600. Not a bad return when you consider the fact that I have been able to enjoy them all this time, and still make money. However I will not sell them. The real problem is the price of the new Leica's I want to buy(with the rangefinder). I have been saving for about a year now. Hopefully the dollar will increase a little more and the exchange rate(euro) will lower. Then hopefully the price on the Leica's will go down a bit after the first of the year. Tom.
