smoozer

I don't understand why our youth especially the 13-14 and the 15-17 age groups must shoot one class where you can use adjustable sights or fixed pin. None of the other classes do this. We have a seperate classes for the female shooters and seperate classes for the men. Why don't we do the same for the youth classes?

Bob H in NH

Youth is broken up by male/female and the male is broken into two age groups. The numbers in those divisions simply don't warrant breaking it by sight now, or fingers. If you continually break divisions up to adjust to some perceived "fairness" you will eventually get a few shooters in many classes.

You also have to keep in mind that the divisions and numbers in the divisions have to take into consideration all IBO shoots, not just national shoots. If 99% of the IBO shoots draw very few youths already, what good is breaking it down further.

The entire concept of making it "fair" is going to far. This is a game that is being taken to seriously, especially at the kids level. A Youth who wants to shoot pins has two options: HC and MBR, there is nothing in the rules that forces them to stay in Youth.

--Bob

Grnmtn

I saw this very example in the peer grouping at nelsonville. There was one boy shooting pins everyone else was shooting moveable sites. Now these kids aren't shooting speed burners so the pin gap for the fixed pin kid was large. It is tougher for him to compete, but he was there. Wasn't near the top, but. What's the leason to be learned here? To compeate you need a moveable site. That is exactly what he and his father decided to buy for the next season. This is a shame to be taking these kids and virtually erasing a site disapline from their options... Hummm declining number in the MBR, no new blood, Bob your options of moving up a 13/14 year old to shoot HC or MBR when they are at an age to compeate for scolarships monies. Maybe a 16 17 year old could compeate, but they miss out, and look at the scores in the HC this year. Next year you are going to need to shoot 30 up with no benifits for school. Bob I no you have been very clear in the past about no new classes... the point is well taken expecially on the local level where more classes depleate a clubs resorces. Everyone knows nothing in life is fair, but a more level playing field? My girls shoot moveable, because I know they can't compeate against others without them with fixed pins even tho I have been shooting them since I was 14. Which site disapline do your kids use? and would you continue to let them shoot a fixed pin site if they weren't able to have a shot at placing? It's like here in VT. The GMAA has no pin division, every class can be shot with a movable site and the only difference is whether you have a lens or not and release type. Not many pure pin shooters compeating here any more. Point I am making is the structure that is in place is focusing kids towards open sites, just as it has done here. Now if you want to only add one add it to the 15 to 17 age group, add a pin class there. These ages I believe is where the kids will be learning a life time disapline, 13/14 are like the cubs still having a bit more fun.

Bob H in NH

Brian (GrnMtn), all your points are right on and accurate, I just basically disagree with the "fair" and "level the playing field" aspects. One problem with more youth divisions, scroll back through the messages on this board, there was a youth complaining that he didn't win enough! Give me a break, didn't win ENOUGH!! Come on now. Besides, if you read them all you will see that he didn't win some awards because there weren't enough youths in the division to warrant the prizes. Now we are discussing fragmenting this even more?

To answer your specific questions, both my boys shoot pins, both are currently cubs with the older one coming up on his last year as a cub, actually the younger one wants a traditional bow now. When they goes youth he will still shoot pins. He will shoot pins until he decides he wants a movable sight AND he buys it himself. As for scholarships, the IBO scholarship program is EXCELLENT. However it benefits very few, even fewer if you consider some of those scholarships are for Hocking College Only. Secondly, a youngster shooting in the adult class, should that youngster make money, the "money" is I believe put into savings bonds or some other financial vehicle until that child turns 18. There are a couple FBO shooters who are under 18.

In fact there is a young shooter here in NH that wins everything we have locally, has cleaned several courses when he was a FBH and is now shooting 270+/300 as a cub and I think he's only 10. He is currently shooting a movable sight, but because he is sponsored by the sight company. His scores didn't change 1 bit when he went from pins.

I watched the best of the best at Snowshoe, and the "kids" shooting off (cubs and youth divisions) all were shooting speeds that will approach mid to upper 200's. Given that cub distance is now 25 max, jr youth is now 35 max, and sr. youth is now 45 max, I don't feel speed is an issue. The sr youths are all pulling/shooting about the same as the adults.

Ya Brian, I have been fairly vocal about adding more divisions, but it is more because of people taking this GAME to seriously and figuring if they aren't winning (or the kids in this discussion) then something isn't fair.

--Bob

Grnmtn

Bob...
I was pretty sure both of your boys were shooting pins, but I wasn't going compleately out on the limb. I'm just a frustrated pin shooter watching our ranks getting shorter... we did have a small growth this year tho. Traditional Bow! Cool... if I had the time it takes to put towards that I would love to do it.

I too am a little disapointed with the I want to win more attitutde. Parents have to do a better job teaching good sportsmanship, playing with in the written rules and living by them. Good bad or seemingly unfair. It is a tough pill to swallow for the kid who did shoot all the legs but missed out becasue of numbers, It seems like someone could have bent a rule to accomadate the perserverence. But it is a tough call and if you make allowences for one it opens the door for all.

Sure there are kids who do compeate in the adults... Samantha Kline, heck Eric is/was a perfect example, but these kid are really exceptional. The reason I suggested that maybe one extra class spliting... the sr. youth is just that they are shooting adult equipment. Most people can't shoot pins as well as a moveable, but a pin shooter can shoot better using a moveable than if a moveable site shooter goes to shoot pins. They just aren't equal and are a bit different in aiming technique and fine tuning. But you know that. You've been on both sides of that fence. I will say for the record tho I can't see breaking the classes any more than that. Kind of like the last jumping off point before they have to shoot with us stuffy adults.

Anyhow good luck in the outdoors and maybe we'll cross paths indoors this year.

Brian

smoozer

Boy not much response on this subject. I guess no one really cares if doesn't affect them. There are several classes that the IBO has listed that had no one shoot in at the world tournament. I have read several complaints about the MBO class being so big. Could it be that we are bring the youngsters up to shoot adjustable sights? I wonder.

n23d

smoozer - Please list the "several classes" that had no shooters at worlds, I'm curious to see which ones they are.

smoozer

I agree with you we must keep it fun. I for one don't put much pressure on my boy to win but at the same time I want him to be on a level playing field. As for putting the practice time in it would be very herd to find anyone one that practices more than he does. It is that I just find it amusing that the men and women both seperate the pin shooters from the adjustable sights. We have classes now that have less than 10 shooters in them. There is no doubt in my mind that separating the youth that there would be more than that .

3dbowhunter

MBF has both fixed pins and movable sights[no lens] in the same class.It's just part of the game.Their rules just play by them.

Grnmtn

I am interested on how "Fewer classes would put more competitors out there now and in the future and would build archers not would be archers." would actually work to achieve increased numbers. Whether kids are there becasue they want to be or because the parents are there so they have to be is inmaterial if these kids are getting their clocked cleaned week in and week out due to equipment difference. How do you build interest if they are on the lossing end of the stick every week. Remember there needs to be some sort of reward system to help build these kids into wanting to do this. We as adults make the concious choise to participate knowing full well that in most cases there is better shooters out there, but we do it for many more reasons than winning. Yes in most cases the kids are coming along for the ride with their parents, yes only a few find the drive and passion for this shooting sport and others are as you say "would be shooters" but why drive the would bes away... they may just be the late bloomers or the one that pick up the bow again after a few years only to excel. Now I am not here promoting awards for all kids, but I am trying to make a point as with the starter of this thread that perhaps a split for the oldest youth group to give them a chance to grow into a different disapline other than a moveable site only to compeate. Yes they could choise to compeate with a fixed pinsite prior, but in most cases... not all,they would be sliding down the pecking order. For you open shooter that gaufaw this... try putting you moveable site away for a year. I am sure in most cases you will see a slide in your scores till you figure out the new game. Not alot is being asked here from "me". I can't see making new classes thru out the age spectrum, but the last transition before they have to shoot adults.