RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Bill H.,



What does The use of tab have to do with anything ?



Bill

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Bill H.,



For that matter , what does hump on shelf have to do with anything ?
Nothing in the rule's about them.



You can not go by what some local yokal says the rules are ! This is one thing that I here all the time . I do not know where people come up with the rules that they state all the time . They are not in THE IBO RULE'S. If you can not use a tab then Kieth Bain needs to turn his many world championship belt buckle's back in !




Bill

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Bill,

Sorry about that. Senior moment on my part. I failed to make my meaning clear. Since I use a tab to shoot 3-under or Apache style, I used the word tab, to incorrectly mean 3-under. You're absolutely right of course; most tabs can be used to shoot split fingers. Split fingers being the only accepted manner under the present rules. Apache style, or Asiatic style not being "English enough". I did not mean to confuse anyone. However, I still feel I am right on the second part.

1. Under "TRADITIONAL LONGBOW (MTRD)" it says under rule eight for this class. " 8. Arrow should be shot from the shelf or hand with no elevated rest. Only a piece of leather or similar material 1/8 inch thick or less shall be allowed on the arrow shelf."

This effectively disallows placing a raised spot on the shelf using 1/8" leather shoe lacing and then covering it, as well as sealskin, which will stick up 3/16-1/4" or more. How does this give a huge advantage? Even though I have not shot a bow since 1960 till Oct of 2001, my old Bear Cub and Kodiak Special had Bear's hair rest. The shelves on these bows were illegal according to the present traditional rules.

If it is known that rules are being mis-applied, or misunderstood, it would seem reasonable that enough information be given to Local Range Officers so that they could make proper rulings on rule violations, if they follow IBO rules.
gg

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

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RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

It may be that it is not so much a question of the equipment that brings opposition to change as it may be in the method it is shot. Personally I do not feel there is enough difference between a recurve and a longbow to make any real difference especially when the shots are kept at twenty five yard and under. The same I think is basically correct about wood versus aluminum or carbon or what the point weight is, perhaps 125 grain point weight was choosen because it is what is required for other divisions as well. There is though I think a huge difference between a three finger under and a split finger shooter. For pure accuracy I believe that three under is superior and easier for many because with a little playing with your set up you can aim point on at most targets while split finger requires a greater gap or what we term instinctive shooting. for most this will never be as easy to use or achieve quite the accuracy as any direct aiming method. It seems that the longbow division is set up to be as dificult as reasonably possible with the current rules and that this is exactly what is wanted. If this is correct then changing the rules to fit three under to everything will effectivly eliminate another group, the split finger shooters. They now have a division with the new recurve division for three under as well as one for wood arrows and split fingers , seems like the IBO has progressed in a very logical manner in this matter. I do agree on the shooter of the year, we should be included as well as a max distance of 25 yds. The top shooters will still do well with the addition of the eleven point ring and the closer distances would encourage the newer shooter. Ken, rest assured those attitudes you received in regards to compound shooters are not in the majority, it just goes to show that real ignorance knows no bounds in creed, color, or archery equipment selections, I have received simalar comments from compound shooters that do not believe you could hit or kill anything with a stickbow and the only comment I could make was that it is truely a wonder we managed to be successful for a few , say twenty thousand years or so before the compound came along and continue to enjoy myself. This ignorance of another way may have manifested it's self enough to make a number of traditionalist prefer to shoot only with other traditionalist.My only comment to traditionalist who will not compete because of this, get out and educate people insted of hiding your head in the sand, we are all archers first and a particular style comes a distant second, and trust me this is from as hard core a traditionalis as you will find.

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

K.N. (Tom) I believe I shot with you at the Worlds ( I was using the dowells)after breaking all my cedears the day before in a fall. May have been another person doing the same thing though.
Darryl Longbow aka Darryl Payne
Wall Mart dowells are better :) Kustom King shafts are MUCH better

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

I shot with a guy at the worlds who was shooting a longbow with alm. arrows. He shot with me in the RU class. Didn't hear one complaint from him.

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Fastfletch,

We agree on the importance of Longbow Hunter education as a concept and how it is applied. Before decision making in the form of rules occur, dialogue between individual Longbow Hunters, groups of such Archers and committee members must occur. I am trying to start such a dialogue and motivate input. Input, which I feel, has been lacking.

The rules should, as close as possible, represent 100% of Longbow Hunters, not just less than 30% of them and certainly not just the opinion of 18 people, who may or may not be informed. At this point in time we have no assurance that their decision is an informed one.

I haven't had any contact from a board member. Unless, someone has posted here that belongs to the Board. Bill Leslie asked for Board input several days ago and I haven't seen a response to his thread either.

I personally, have never had a problem with waiting. Without exception, when another Longbow shooter and I come up on a group of compound shooters, they have invited us to "shoot through". I feel that is more of an individual problem and not an IBO problem. That being said, if IBO had a guideline, protocol, or some statement about shooting through, that might help.

Your last two paragraph indicate you have an understanding of the problem and steps that may need to be taken to reach a decision that represents the Majority of Longbow Hunters, not just 25-30% of them.

Hi K_N,

You were unaware of the discrimination against MTRD in regards to the "Shooter of the Year" and children. Yet these are the same people you are willing to accept and "Rubber Stamp"what ever they say without a question and without any input from you. Why?

The fact that MTRD rules may be similar to rules by other organizations, does not make them right, and does not address the question of being fair, or being discriminatory. Other groups are capable of discrimination also. Your not affected, so you dont care.

If you had read carefully the section dealing with percent in a prior post, you would have realized that some 70% or more of Longbow/Traditional archers do not attend IBO events. With that being true, naturally you rarely see someone shooting Aluminum. I can guarantee you, if you saw me and the only other longbow hunter in this area that shoots in such meets, you would have seen aluminum arrows.

As I said earlier today, my mistake on the tab. In my mind tab equals Apache, since that is how I shoot. Tabs used in a split finger manner are legal. Tabs used in an Apache, (3 under) manner are not legal.

K_N, have you measured a leather shoelace? I have! Using a Lyman Dial Caliper, a leather shoelace measures .118" (its thickness isn't constant) without any barge cement under it. You're allowed .125", which means your barge cement, and whatever else you try to use has to be .007" thin or you're over. Don't you think that this is a little silly? The rules do not cover compressing your rest. You still have not answered my question. How do any of the proposed rules exclude anyone, or give an unfair advantage. Notice the word unfair.

Take care, gg

Again, I would urge you to respond to how any of the proposed rules would be unfair or exclude.

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Bill Curlis,

So he didn't complain. Do you know that he would have chosen RU over MTRD, if he had a choice? Or was he just being resigned to his fate and didn't feel it would be worthwhile to complain? Sometimes people take a beating and don't say a word, it doesnt mean they are enjoying it.

Hi Darryl Longbow,

As I read your post, it becomes apparent that you just can't stand the Apache/3 under draw and feel that anyone that uses it should be in a Recurve Class. What is wrong with another Longbow Class other than "MRTD" such as the "LBH"(Longbow Hunter) Class I suggested?

It seems you could approve of a 25yd max and see how it would encourage new folks. That a step in the right direction.

Now consider this statement you made. "We are all archers first and a particular style comes a distant second". Your prior words don't support this statement. If I were not a stubborn person, I would sell/trade all my longbows for a Recurve. At least they wouldn't discriminate against my bow, arrows, or style.

To the Readers,

Over 500 of you have read this thread so far. The silence is almost deafening. Hope your discussing the different points of view with other Archers and giving some thought to a Longbow Hunter Class, that would accept all Longbow archers.

gg

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

He told me that he would rather shoot in the RU class with alm. arrows than shoot in the MTRAD with woods.

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Bill,

Ahhh, you did hear a complaint, you just failed to recognize it. He was shooting in RU class, not because it was his preferred class, but because that was the one closest to his preferred class (MTRD). "ARROW DISCRIMINATION" barred him from his preferred Class and RU was a poor 2nd Choice. Remember the cigarette commercial, "I'd rather fight, than switch!" Rather than not shoot at all, he will shoot in RU, and you don't call this a complaint???

gg

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

The comment I made about all of us being archers first and our particular style being of secondary importance was not in context to our current rule disscussion . It is in reference toward the tendency some bow shooters of all styles have in running down someone else of a different style. This divides our ranks and that is something we need to avoid. ethics are decided by the individual not the equipment they choose. All of the equipment out there is just as capable as any other in the taking of game as well as having fun with. People might be suprised how often laws are proposed to limit or eliminate all shooting sports, including archery. Every time we decide that our way is the only way to participate in our chossen sport we are just helping those that would take away that sport, that is why I believe we need to think of ourselves as archers first and traditionalist or modernist second. Am I against shooting three under ? no not really, I have played around with it enough to know that it is a bit easier to hit well with than split finger and in a competition will more than likely win out. Yes I am aware Howard Hill who was probably the greatest archer who ever lived shot split finger and would have been just as successful today as he was in the past, however none of us are Howard unfortunatly. To me it is much closer to shooting a sight than it is not and in a competition format a sight shooter will normally score higher than a non sight shooter. I think history in regards to the NFAA will prove that. No I am not against another division per say and in fact question if we need to seperate longbows and recurves at all if they are shot the same with the same arrow and method of shooting. I do question that another division that seperates out only the bow from what we now have will be of benifit. They do not seperate a particular brand or type of compound (round wheel versus dual cam or single cam) but how it is shot is seperate ( moveable sight versus fixed sight, release versus fingers) Why not bring whatever stickbow you want and seperate by style of shooting it, three under versus split. On the 1/8 rule for the shelf, they needed some standard and suspect that was an arbitrary figure just as a maximum poundage was. What we need as traditionalist is to stop quibbling about rules and adopt to whatever they are and work at getting enough of us to attend to make it worth while for all of the organizations to listen to us. Whatever the rules are we the traditionalist need to show numbers first and then work on making changes from within.

RE: Dont understand Logic behind MTRD rules??
 

Hi Darryl Longbow,

" . . . Running down someone of a different style. This divides our ranks . . ." In this case you're talking about Compound Bows, Crossbows, Recurve Bows, or Longbows. I agree it's the ethics of the hunter/outdoorsman that make us belong to the "Brethren of the Bow", not the type bow.

I agree that " . . .we need to think of ourselves as archers first and traditionalist or modernist second . . ." Except when a traditionalist tell's me to take my longbow and shoot in the Recurve Class, for any reason. Then I am made to think of myself as a modernist, despite the fact that I shoot a Longbow.

The reference to Howard Hill had nothing to do with his split finger style, nor glove style. Instead, it referred to the fact that he used Aluminum arrows. Especially when he kill African big game. Traditionalist would therefore, not let him shoot in the MTRD class, if he used aluminum.

You " . . . question if we need to separate longbows and recurves at all if they are shot with the same arrow and method of shooting . . ." In other words, MTRD RULES. Rhymes with "My way or the Highway" I'm sure you can be more accomdating than that! (grin)

" . . .Why not bring whatever stickbow you want and separate by style of shooting it, three under versus split" I don't like the word "separate", since that is what I am talking about. I would agree with, "Why not bring whatever Longbow/(stickbow) you want and shoot in the Longbow Hunter class, with a separate division for three under and split." (only if and when it was proven that this was really necessary. I know of no evidence to support such a division.

"On the 1/8" rule for the shelf, they needed some standard and suspect that was an arbitrary figure . . ." I disagree. I think it was intended to keep us as close to an English Longbow as they could. A bow, without a shelf or a near shelf, where you shot off your fingers with only a thin leather glove to protect the hand. In this case if you used a shelf at all, then the thin glove leather was all that could be used. If we want to be reinactors with English Longbow period equipment and style we usually join a Reinactors group. If we want to be Target archers, we usually join or shoot in a FITA or NFAA style group. If we are BowHunters we try and think in terms of IBO?

We want to shoot in 3D meets; we would like to avoid English Longbow or reinactors rules. Clout shooting, FITA and other games are fun also, just not 3D.

" . . .Whatever the rules are, we the traditionalist, need to show numbers first and then work on making changes from within . . ." I agree with you completely, if you care to call me a traditionalist, but disagree on which should come first. We may have the numbers right now!! As long as I, and others like me, am made to shoot in any other classe, our numbers go to swell the ranks of those classes. They do not add to the group of Longbow archers at all. I become just another Recurve Shooter, that shoots a Longbow with three under, or Aluminum arrows, or has sealskin on his shelf. When I'm counted after a meet on any data sent to the IBO by a meet director, I am a Recurve shooter. The Traditionalist says my bow does not count; they don’t want to claim me in their numbers, they would much rather have me counted as a Recurve Archer, not in MTRD! The bow is not important, it's the other things, which really count. True or False?

Least we get lost in the shuffle; I am posting the suggested rules for a class within IBO that could include all Longbow Hunters of whatever persuasion for your consideration and discussion.

Take care, gg
LONGBOW HUNTER (LBH)

All I.B.O. rules apply, and the Longbow rules listed below. There is a 90-lb. Maximum bow weight. THIS CLASS ONLY.
1. Competitors shooting in the longbow hunter class will use a longbow defined as: a bow which when strung the string touches only the nocks of the bow. (i.e. a bare bow).
2. No sight, stabilizers, counter balances, cushion plungers or mechanical adjustments shall be permitted.
3. Arrow shafts shall be identical in length, weight and color, except for normal wear. Arrow shafts may be wood, aluminum, carbon, or a combination of aluminum and carbon. All arrows will be Hunting weight (i.e., a minimum weight of 8.5 to 10.1 or greater, grains per pound of draw weight)
4. Strings shall have single color middle serving with no marks.
5. One string nocking point only is permitted.
6. One additional nock locator, which may be snap-on type, tubing, thread or dental floss tied or served on the servings.
7. Arrow should be shot from the shelf or hand with no elevated rest. Only a piece of leather, fur or similar material 1/4 inch thick or less shall be allowed on the arrow shelf.
8. One anchor point only is permitted. (No string or face walking)
9. Must be shot with glove, finger tab, thumb ring or bare fingers only.
10. While shooting the archer shall touch the arrow with the index finger against the nock
11. An archer may shoot using: a Mediterranean release (one finger over and two under the nock); an Apache release, (three fingers under the nock); or an Asiatic release (use of a thumb ring).
12. The White Longbow Stake shall be set half way between the Orange stake and the 3D target.
(As examples. Orange stake at 60 yds, LB stake = 30 yds; Orange = 50 yds, LB = 25 yds; Orange = 40 yds, LB = 20 yds; Orange 30 yds, LB = 15 yds; Orange = 20 yds, LB = 10 yds)
13. Longbow Hunters who normally hunt from longer distances, or who wish to compete from longer distance, (or for any other reason), may elect at registration, to compete against the other competitors in the Longbow Hunter Class by shooting from the yellow stake, or the green stake, or the orange stake.
It is felt that the above rule changes will allow all Longbow Hunters to shoot in the 3D games at a distance which is challenging to them and one they just might use under Hunting Conditions. (The "average kill" occurs at 15 yards or under).
The IBO does an excellent job of offering different Classes for Compound Hunters, based on release, sights, stabilizers, or age and experience. It does a poor job with recurves and does its worst job with the longbow.
* I believe that the primary reason why there is such a problem with the placement of stakes is the absence of a clear system for doing this without a rangefinder. If a meet director, set the Orange stake first, then set the White stake halfway between the Orange stake and the 3D target. (Something that can be done by eyeballing the 3D target and the Orange stake until he finds the middle). Then looking back from the White stake towards the Orange stake he can mentally and visually divide that distance into thirds. The yellow stake would go at the first third (heading back towards the Orange stake), and the Green stake would go at the 2/3's mark. This provides within a yard or two distances in keeping with the original %'s used. Orange is taken as 100%, Green = 90% of that distance; Yellow = 70% of that Distance, and White would now be 50% of that distance. (Has been 60%)