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Xpert, don't read so good huh?
Money, in regard to prizes, means nothing to me, but it apparently does to some. They have that right, and the right to advocate for a change.
Yet the mention of it provokes "crying" comments from you. If you don't want to hear more about HC, don't read the posts. Its that simple.
As far as defensive, no. Annoyed with self righteousness, yes. If you disagree with what the person who started this thread has to say, make your point or don't read it; but, insulting comments like your first post are unnecessary.
So, if reading this thread is going to make you vomit, don't read it. Everyone will likely be happier if you keep your stomach contents down.

JDoyle, I will not change my tune, even if I would get a gift certificate. The only way I would change my tune, is if you or someone else would give me a good reason why HC/FHC is being treated as a lower class(for lack of a better term)shooters.

Thanks,rustywreck, all forum readers should have your attitude, whether they agree or disagree.

And, as for the so called archeryxpert; I and many others certainly don't feel that the shooters that shoot a 396 in HC are a joke! I for one think they are good shooters. I strive to get to that point sometime. And when they win their class twice, then they will move up.

By the way pinmaster, I didn't even know about the IBO 4 years ago. And if I did,and 50 yds. was max for entry level shooters, I would of never came to World's or any other Championship.

Now, to all who reads this; When I posted my first thread, it was the first time I ever heard about this $500 cap on HC/FHC and why the IBO did this. Why didn't we hear about this before World's this past August? What I don't understand is why you say HC is infested with shooters that probably should be shooting MBO or MBR. It would be the same thing in MBO & MBR where you have shooters that shoot high scores all of the time and don't move up to Semi-pro or Pro. I see nothing wrong with that. If you would have to move up just because you constantly get a high score, but don't win, most shooters would never make it to the top of a class. Also, if a shooter is not shooting as good as he use to, why shouldn't he move back? I don't see any problem with that either. Someone, please explain this to me, because I just don't get it! I would think that the Trophy Classes are for the beginners, not HC/FHC. And then the HC classes are just the next stage up from beginners and then MBO, etc. and then finally Pro classes. Why are some people putting the shooters in HC down? When I first started in 2001; I shot in the Trophy class because I was a beginner and knew I would probably be last on the list. Needless to say I wasn't the very last. This past August at World's , I shot the money class and did better then my first year, which by the way was my goal. I sincerely intend to proceed on to the higher classes eventually. So again, why isn't the HC/FHC given 10% the same as other classes? And why does the IBO have a problem with shooters in HC/FHC staying there until they take 1st place twice, the same as the other classes? The Trophy Classes should be left for beginners! And the HC classes should be treated with the same respect as all the other classes!
As I stated before, this just doesn't make sense to me at all!!

Bowperson, I don't know why you did not hear about the cap on winnings for the HC's untill now. The information is and has been out for some time. I am also sorry to hear that you feel punished, penalised, persecuted or abused by the system. I can assure you the intent was not to create a lower class of people when the organization formed a class designed towards the entry level shooter. I can also assure you that this class always was and will be for the immediate future dedicated towards that entry level status. If you were unaware of this you have my sympathy. I am also sorry that you can not see the greater good that is done by protecting a class for the entry level shooters from those that would take advantage of it. It is truely a shame that you can not see the effort being made to take care of this class, and not because of infiriority, but because of the extreme importance which they symbolize. I realize that you would do things differently, but perhaps with the passing of time you will see the benefits of what has been started. I don't think that anyone is currently telling you that you must change your class or that you are in any way a bad or lower class individual for shooting there. I have multiple friends who shoot there and all are fine people. The only difference that I see is that they except the class as it was intended.

Respectfully: Chris

Bluejacket, I don't know, either why I haven't heard about the cap. I didn't see it in the rules index, nor do I see it in the 2002 rule changes. Am I missing it somewhere?

What is this class intended for, other then entry level. Please enlighten me.

I did not say I'd do anything differently except treat HC/FHC the same with respect to awards. And yes, as I stated above, the gift certificates are a nice idea. Why not money and gift certificates. MBO is such a large class, they should get gift certificates also. That way more of them have something to work towards.

HC/FHC is fine to be dedicated towards the entry level status. This is not the issue.
What are you protecting the HC/FHC from? BowPro stated that HC is still infested with shooters that probably should be shooting either MBO or MBR. What would make MBO and MBR any different?

And again, I ask what are the Trophy classes for? Don't say for those who don't qualify; I know that much; but obviously most of them are beginners. That's where I started out.

And Chris, I have many friends shooting in HC/FHC also, and of course we are all fine people. Tell that to others, not me! I didn't say such a stupid thing!!

Someone answer the above questions and don't leave any out.
Thanks

ARCHERYX, I agree with your views regarding shooters moving down, and shooting 90's. It's ridiculous!! I agree, as well, with the idea of one year & out, if you win. If HC is the entry level class, then why are shooters allowed to move down to compete? I just started 3D this past summer, and feel competetive with people of similar experience. But when shooters with years of experience move down, it's no longer an "entry level" class.
bowperson, I don't see how HC can be considered entry level when shooters are allowed to move down. Explain that to me.
bluejacket, how is HC being "protected" from advantage takers?

Phil.
&quot;Could you guys be quiet, my dad's trying to shoot.&quot;<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

Fasstfletch, I agree with you 100%!
Just one more question, Why doesn't the IBO send letters to all members stating the changes they would like to make, so that, we, the members can voice our opinions before the committee votes on these topics?
Enough said.

bowperson, I have NOTHING to dowith the rule making, so this is just my opinion on all this:

&gt;Am I missing it somewhere?
I haven't looked at the rules latesly, but the payout info I don't believe is there for any class .Maybe it should be.

&gt;What is this class intended for, other then entry level. Please &gt;enlighten me.
I believe HC was originally put in for both beginners, and hunters, folks who don't want to try adn compete with the 3D specific bows, long stabilizers, 5gr/lb arrows etc. It was for an introductory class on one hand, but also a class for people who want to shoot 3D, but want to do it with a hunting setup which typically is not compatible with a top 3D setup.

&gt;HC/FHC is fine to be dedicated towards the entry level status. This &gt;is not the issue.
&gt;What are you protecting the HC/FHC from?

The first year HC was a class, the amount of shooters who dropped down from MBO, MBR, SPM and I beleive even Pro was HUGE. The payout for this class at the worlds was larger than any division with the exception of PMR. I know people who dropped from SPM to HC for the sole purpose of winning the money. People who shoot 395+ don't &quot;normally&quot; fit the description of what this class was intended for, sure, some folks, with hunter setups can do it, but they are rare. What are they being protected from? Simple, remember the second part of the HC, to allow folks in as a beginner level which is less competitive. This gets blown away by the people who drop and shoot high 390's.

&gt;BowPro stated that HC is still infested with shooters that probably &gt;should be shooting either MBO or MBR. What would make MBO and MBR &gt;any different?
The only place MBO can drop from is pro/semi-pro. The top MBO shooters are shooting the same equipment at roughly the same distances and shoot the same scores, there is no advantage to dropping into MBO EXCEPT the lower entry fee. MBR is basically the same, it is the top class for pin shooters.

&gt;And again, I ask what are the Trophy classes for? Don't say for &gt;those who don't qualify; I know that much; but obviously most of &gt;them are beginners. That's where I started out.

Another aspect of the trophy shoots, at least in my mind, is families. My family goes to the worlds, my wife shoots the money round, myself and the boys would have shot the trophy round this year, but it too got to big and we wouldn't have been able to shoot together. Sure, its for the beginner/non-qualifiers. But it is also for the family people who want to go to experience the worlds, but want to shoot with their family (IBO, please make this happen, shoot with a group you show up with)

As far as why they don't send out letters, remember the IBO membership is much more than 3D so sending to all members is logistically not much sense. Second, all members get a magazine that has all the IBO news in it, third, return on mailed questionaires is notoriously low, fourth, they have done the questionaires at the national/world level shoots in the past and they get little to no response.

Just my opinion.

--Bob

Bob H in NH,
&quot;The first year HC was a class, the amount of shooters who dropped down from MBO, MBR, SPM and I beleive even Pro was HUGE. The payout for this class at the worlds was larger than any division with the exception of PMR. I know people who dropped from SPM to HC for the sole purpose of winning the money. People who shoot 395+ don't &quot;normally&quot; fit the description of what this class was intended for, sure, some folks, with hunter setups can do it, but they are rare. What are they being protected from? Simple, remember the second part of the HC, to allow folks in as a beginner level which is less competitive. This gets blown away by the people who drop and shoot high 390's&quot;
My sentiments exactly. This is one thing that removes hunter class as an entry level class.
&quot;I believe HC was originally put in for both beginners, and hunters, folks who don't want to try adn compete with the 3D specific bows, long stabilizers, 5gr/lb arrows etc. It was for an introductory class on one hand, but also a class for people who want to shoot 3D, but want to do it with a hunting setup which typically is not compatible with a top 3D setup.&quot;
This I feel is the other. I was ripped for an earlier post regarding the equipment used in HC. Target bows with pins & 12&quot; stabilizers, in target colors, don't have a place in the woods, IMO. I'd never want to carry a 6+ pound bow around all day.


Phil.
&quot;Could you guys be quiet, my dad's trying to shoot.&quot;<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

I don't know if I will be successful, but I will try to explain what the purpose of HC's and the trophy classes are. I will trust Bowpro or any of the powers that be to correct me if I err.

When referring to entry level shooters, we are not always referring to new shooters. You have to remember the real purpose of the IBO. They promote, advocate, and educate hunting or hunters. The game of 3D is a fantastically successful way to encourage the bowhunting populace to pick up their bows all year long. It also offers a way to combine the intencity of the target archer with the determination of the bowhunter. The combined effect is a very accurate hunter who is very familiar with his/her equipment and its limitations. Net result: safer hunters better representing the hunting community. A few weeks back, we saw posts lamenting the casual attitude of some who pick up their equipment a week before hunting season. We want to get them involved so that we can change that attitude. &lt; By the way, I frequently refer to the IBO as we. This is my organization just as it is yours. I believe in the organization, and will actively support its attempt to improve hunting and archery in general.&gt;

I am currently the president of our local archery club, and I make it a point to talk with members. I try to discover why many have left and what brings many of them back. The truth from my vantage point, is that many are intimidated by the intense competitive flavor of many of the events. Maintaining a casual, entry level class, gives us the opportunity to draw these folks into the game. They are often surprising at just how competitive they become.

As for the trophy class, again many don't feel that they can compete at a national or world level event. Consequently they don't try to qualify. We are often able to convince them that they could just shoot the trophy round. Once there many realize &quot;I could do that&quot; and proceed to do so. Ken told me something one time that has stuck. The best shooter out there we have probably never met. He's the guy/gal just out back shooting squirels or spots. I for one would like to meet that individual.

By the way: the purpose of a class does not change just because people abuse its existance. It only points out that attempts must be made to try to change the abuse patterns. What has been done has helped, the new attempt may help more. My hope is that folks fiqure this out before more aggressive attempts have to be made.