deaddeer

Smaller WMU's will not result in lower anterless allocations or increased OWDD goals. Since the PGC does not recognize the habitat value of farmland, areas with the most farmland will still have the lowest OWDD goals and wll stil have high anterless allocations.
Until the PGC recognizes the habitat value of farmland and all the habitat the deer utilize , they will continue to issue to many anterless tags and attempt to manage the herd at ridiculous low OWDD goals.

cuernos1

How about just going shotgun, muzzleloader, bow and crossbow only. My county is Westmoreland and it is just getting too dangerous. Our barn got it again this year and I'm the only one hunting there and I didn't shoot it...

Ever see this from a QDM seminar?

Doe Fawns Mix Bucks total
4 0 0 1 5 Start population
4 8 4/4 1 13 1st spring
8 0 0 5 13
6 40% 2 80% 8 kill ratio
6 12 6/6 2 20 2nd spring
12 0 8 20
9 40% - 2 80% 11 Kill ration
9 18 9/9 2 29 3rd spring
18 0 11 29
11 40% 2 80% 13
11 22 11/11 2 35
22 13 35sub
14 40% 3 80% 17 Kill ratio
14 28 14/14 3 45 4th spring
You can see the math.... This is using the old harvest rate.. Of course we can support the tighter restrictions. What we need is less complaining and more trying..

Take a look at some of the websites for other states ....www.gon.com etc..

deaddeer

When we are talking about the B/D ratio we are talking about the adult breeding B/D ,not the antlereed to anterless PS ratio. We had 1 M OW deer in 2000 and harvested 203K buck , which means we had at least 250K PS adult buck and 338K OW buck and 672K females ,which produces a B/D ratio of 1:95.
Did you ever consider reading the fawn conception study. If you did you would make such silly claims The study showed 90% of the adult doe were bred between Oct. 27 and DEc 10. We didn't have a problem with the breeding rates , the lenght of the breeding period or late born fawns. Alt simply created the problem to justify AR and you bought it hook ,line and sinker.

wingbar

Deadeer: Rah Rah Rah!!! anyone with the slightest amount ofgray matter must be wondering if Alt did just as you say...created the entire mess to justify HR thru AR....if they aren't then there is little hope for the future of deer hunting in Pa
while I support AR I despise HR at the cost of it.
The PGC also does as you said...they do not consider farmland in the habitat equazion. my uncle's farm is all corn and timothy grass with some bean thrown in as well. Prime protein rich deer chow and the PGC doesn't even list it as habitat cause it is privately owned

JerseyJim

IMO putting AR on youth hunters would be a mistake! When teaching my nephew to fish when he was little I took him to small ponds where I knew we would catch a lot of sun fish and some pickerel that hit anything that moves in the water! The excitement of catching all those fish even though they were small got him hooked (no pun intended) on fishing! Now that he is older and understands it better he fishes for bigger fish but still enjoys catching the smaller ones. Making a young mind pass on too many smaller bucks can and will discourage many young people from wanting to go back! We as hunters need to build on our numbers not take away from them! The anti groups are getting bigger every year and the hunting groups are shrinking! Let the young hunters enjoy the success of taking a buck even if it's not a trophy in your mind! I know it will be a trophy in thier minds and they will be hooked on this great way of life we call hunting! Force them to look for bigger deer when they get older and are already hooked!

wingbar

JJ : we live here in Pa we hunt here in Pa we are constantly told by the PGC to harvest does for the benifit of the habitat/herd here in Pa by the PA GC.
What lesson would it send to our youth to allow them to kill a sub AR legal buck and let a doe walk?
I remeber when all this youth hunting was just being discussed here in Pa by the commissioners. One of the main reason but not the only was to aide the youth in killing a deer or at the very least "get the kid some shooting" to get him hooked. NOWHERE did they say a buck,any buckwill do it faster.
We want to teach our kids here in Pa to be better conservationists, as Dr. alt stated many times, "we need to reeducate our hunters to the benifit of killing does an allowing immature bucks to walk", then why start them off thinking it any doe is ok but any buck is GREAT????????

VA HEAD HUNTER

when it comes to getting a youth involved im all for it but remember with fishing you have the option to catch and release. now the kids have to understand that it is not always easy in the woods hunting for deer and what kind of real hunting experience would it be for them if they shot the first thing that came out. that would teach them the same values that you guys in pa are talking about being wrong wouldnt it? if a small buck is your idea of a trophy then thats fine if your bar is not set high enough and you obviously dont have enough faith in either your skills to hunt for a big mature buck, or in your area that it wont produce them but i still dont see what a small immature racked buck is worth to you. now when i say you im not talking to anyone specific. im just directing it to those in pa that are going to take offence to it.

JerseyJim

Say what you will about small racks not being worth anything. I think they are. When a youth gets to hold that rack in his/her hands it is an awesome feeling. A picture is great but the feel and uniqueness of antlers from one deer to the next is something you don't get from a doe! I love the look, shape, color ect. ect.. of antlers. Antlers make each buck different and gives each it's own character! A token of the hunt to hang on the wall and look at! One that you can touch and study. I know the antlers from all my bucks very well. My first set I know every little bump and nub on them. They are very special to me. I enjoy taking doe's and I love when I come across a real wall hanger but any antlers are a trophy to me. If I had my own farm and had the time to spend on really hunting hard I might get the itch to hold out for a bigger buck. I might not. I love all bucks antlers. As far as setting my bar high enough...LOL! I am not looking to brag to the local idiots at the bar about the giant buck I took. I hunt for me the way I like to. The meat is for me and the family but the keep sake (antlers) are for me only! What are we teaching our youth when we let them shoot young bucks? We teach them that it's not about a trophy you can win it's about the hunt! Most young hunters get just as excited over taking a doe as they do a buck but the keep sake that comes along with taking a buck over a doe is something a young hunter can and usually does cherish forever! I would rather take a small racked buck then a doe the same way you would rather take a mature big racked buck over a smaller racked buck. To each his own and happy hunting all!

VA HEAD HUNTER

thats fine and all good points but if a state is having deer population problems then what sence does it make to shoot immature animals that have never had the chance to reproduce? do you think when the numbers get so low that the state is just going to ship in a bunch more just for people to shoot? doubt it. what it boils down to is managing the numbers correctly and shooting immature animals is not the way to do that. i have been managing deer on my land for some time now and it takes longer then you think to get the quality and keep the quality and it takes no time at all to wipe them out either. and as far as a youth going out and killing any deer they want really who cares if they do. the youth hunts are not whats going to hurt the population. its the ones shooting everything that walks by. if a kid shoots a spike their first time out then that is a memory of a lifetime and that is awesome. but an adult whos been hunting for years out there mowin them down doesnt help your population at all. but like i said before good luck to pa cause it will surely get worse before it gets better. there are more people concerned with shooting the deer of their choice and not enough concerned with management.

JerseyJim

What is the population problem in PA? Too many? Too few? Too old? Too young? From what I read on this bored PA hunters for the most part are not seeing enough deer. I also read some places in PA have plenty of deer. Then I read the quality of deer is down in some area's and better in others. What is it PA hunters want? If it's too few deer then you need to cut back on all the doe day's. Taking doe's is the real herd killer! If too many deer is the problem then you need to take more doe's! If a hunter takes the first buck that comes by instead of waiting for that bigger buck then that bigger buck gets to grow for another year passing on his healthy big genes! Or the hunter passes on the smaller buck and kills the bigger buck and the smaller buck gets to pass on his genes. There is no difference there! Passing on the smaller buck and taking a doe on the other hand does make a difference. She has the ability to make 1-3 more deer a year! Take her and you take 5-7 deer that would be there in the next 3 years. So now you take that smaller buck and the bigger buck still gets bigger and passes his genes into the doe who then gives birth to either another buck or 2 or a baby making doe or 2 or both! I don't see the negative side to that except the smaller buck doesn't have a big enough rack to brag about! If reducing the herd is the goal the doe is the way to go! By me taking the smaller buck I left the bigger ones for you trophy hunters. If I take a large rack buck it is one less for you to hunt! What is the difference? Please explain. Also explain why you need to go after the bigger racked bucks? What is it you get out of it that you don't get from shooting a smaller racked buck? VA Headhunter I agree the youth hunts wont have a big impact on the herd so we should make it as apealing for them and as memorable as possible! I'm no expert on deer population problems so if I'm way off base here please show me the light! I just know how I enjoy hunting and I would hope to get a lot more people into hunting by getting them to feel the way I do when I'm hunting!