I can see both sides of the argument and that's what I said when I first heard about ARs - "they're going to kill all the yearlings with the best genetics". I guess it will also save a lot of bucks, too. However, we hunt in an area where you never see another hunter the whole season. Most of our bucks died of old age before the ARs and not that many guys up there hunt doe anyway. I don't think it makes any difference there.

MikeE

On the contrary, the chances to harvest "a deer" are better than ever. Plenty of antlerless permits are available for all. The only harvest opportunity that has been degraded is the chance to shoot an adolescent male deer wearing his first antlers. (roughly the equivalent to a 14 year old in the human world) All other opportunities are now better than ever.

It aint ever going to be perfect. Yes, some inferior bucks will be allowed to get older. The good news is that since lots of bucks will be allowed to live through that first season adolescent stupidity, some will get smart enough to live even longer.

DD

If you spent a fraction of the time you spend crunching , twisting and perverting the numbers on some honest to God scouting and time learning about your quarry, maybe you wouldn't have a problem finding a mature buck

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NJBowman, i wouldnt have a problem with herd reduction, if I was seeing 30 deer per day , heck I have never seen 30 deer a day in my life. The problem is when you consider seeing 5 deer per day a great day and 3 deer per day a real good day, and the herd is still being reduced by 73.2%. Pike

Cmon Jeff! You never saw 30 deer in a day? Yes, 30 is a lot but it still happens to me and my hunting partners a couple of times a year. It's usually in the late season when "they're all shot out. Oh and by the way, it's on heavily hunted ground open to all, not some private honey hole! Of course we see lots more than 30 in THOSE spots

BT. Im serious, i have never seen 30 deer in a day while hunting, about 8 years ago I seen 13 deer on the second day of bow season, thats the most i have ever seen in one day. I dont doubt one bit that you see that many deer but believe it or not, I see more deer in a couple hour drive on the turnpike & RT. 70, between Bedford co. and the PA./WV. state line than I have here from the end of last deer season until now. If I lived and hunted in your area I would be screaming for herd reduction as much as you. Im not asking DR. Alt for a deer behind every tree, like NJ, Bowman pointed out there is no need for it, But I would like to see a Target goal of way more than 5 deer per square mile. I think if we traded places, I would be making your post's and you would be making mine. Pike

J pike, where in York are you hunting? My friends and I hunt York all the time (we're right accross the river in Columbia) and we see tons of deer, the county is poluted with them. Last year 7 of us went out the first Saturday and had 5 deer by noon. We usually hunt the water company or down by acomac and always have success.

I haven't seen 30 deer in one day in over 25 years. Let's stop bs' each other. It is apparent that there are pockets of high deer density in this state and there are pockets of very low deer density. All you need to see this is the harvest numbers from last year. What I, and others want, is for the PGC to stop issuing excessive doe permits in areas of low density. But they don't. For years, they had been lobbying for the WMU's, and everybody was behind their plea, because they said it would allow them to better manage the herd in high/low density areas. They have failed miserably in this. This is now the 3rd or 4th year of WMU's and they have done squat with their info, except to railroad us into believing that our state is overrun with whitetails. They had better control with the county system than they do now. Let's have an independent study done on our herd, what are they afraid of?

I don't have a problem finding a mature buck, they are in my woods every year until hunting season. Then they are on the neighbors posted ground. Furthermore, putting another rack on the wall means very little to me at this point in time. I hunt for the fun of it, not to prove anything to anyone.

You can't provide one example where I twisted and preverted the numbers and you can't provide one study that shows that AR increases the antler size on 2.5 buck. But, Dr. Kro;;'s study supports my claim that the average 2.5 buck saved by AR will have a smaller rack since it takes the average 1.5 spike 2 or 3 years to catch up with the average 1.5 , 6 or 8 pt.

MikeE,

We definitely agree on the fact that the extra large, all encompassing WMU's don't do an effective job of addressing the areas of population boom/bust within their borders. On the other hand, just have a listen at the gun club, sporting goods store, coffee shop and the number one b!tch you hear about the WMU's is that they're complicated and confusing. I dont agree with that but it points out the fact that more precise WMU's are likely to encounter even more resistance. I'm not saying that we shouldn't get more precise in trying to manage smaller areas, just that it's likely to take a while for smaller, more effective units to be accepted.

Jeff,
You oughtta take a drive west this season!