PGC just released, Alt resigns!!!
04-06-2004, 09:38 PM
#1
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
PGC just released, Alt resigns!!!
Gary Alt has resigned in disgrace due largely to exposure of the flaws in his management strategy pointed out by the diligence of LDD (Larry, Darryl, and Darryl) on these very boards. Larry, Darryl and Darryl will take over immediately managing for a DBET ratio of 1:1 (Deer Behind Every Tree). AR will be lifted and a bounty will be immediately placed on all male deer. Mommy deer will be protected until the desired DBET of 1:1 is reached. DD (Darryl and Darryl of course) will be the cheifs of AR police and any hunter observed passing a small buck will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. DD will also temporarily take over the computer modeling till the approprite bean counter on crack can be located.
When asked about the recent overthrow Silinsky has been quoted as saying " it's a bad day indeed for all those spikes and forkies I had to pass"
DD's (Darryl and Darryl) response to the recent develpoments: " We will now seek a OWDD (over winter deer density) of 72 deer PFSM (per forested square mile), a density of 23 PPSM (per paved square mile) and a density of 33 DDDDPSM (DD's Discretionary Density per Square Mile) a BD ratio of 1:95. we will accomplish this by giving out unlimited buck tags and protecting the does the way it ought to be.
The PGC will spew out a "factoid statistic of the Day" to further keep the public informed. An unnamed LDD supporter was quoted as saying " there's no end to the numbers we can crunch"
Good news for Pennsylvanias foresters too! No more pesky oaks that take so long to grow! Soon the state will be beautifully landscaped with ferns, striped maples and in many places no pesky trees at all!
Autobody shops will experience an economic boom as well.
PennDot has commissioned a study on the durability of roadkill as a pothole filler.
Alt was unavailable for comment. It's been rumored that he may be hiding in a cave in Iowa, Illinois, or Kansas where he still has a few misguided supporters.
An investigation has also been launched into the secret PGC coyote stocking program. Heads will undoubtedly roll!
When asked about the recent overthrow Silinsky has been quoted as saying " it's a bad day indeed for all those spikes and forkies I had to pass"
DD's (Darryl and Darryl) response to the recent develpoments: " We will now seek a OWDD (over winter deer density) of 72 deer PFSM (per forested square mile), a density of 23 PPSM (per paved square mile) and a density of 33 DDDDPSM (DD's Discretionary Density per Square Mile) a BD ratio of 1:95. we will accomplish this by giving out unlimited buck tags and protecting the does the way it ought to be.
The PGC will spew out a "factoid statistic of the Day" to further keep the public informed. An unnamed LDD supporter was quoted as saying " there's no end to the numbers we can crunch"
Good news for Pennsylvanias foresters too! No more pesky oaks that take so long to grow! Soon the state will be beautifully landscaped with ferns, striped maples and in many places no pesky trees at all!
Autobody shops will experience an economic boom as well.
PennDot has commissioned a study on the durability of roadkill as a pothole filler.
Alt was unavailable for comment. It's been rumored that he may be hiding in a cave in Iowa, Illinois, or Kansas where he still has a few misguided supporters.
An investigation has also been launched into the secret PGC coyote stocking program. Heads will undoubtedly roll!
04-07-2004, 08:19 PM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,262
RE: PGC just released, Alt resigns!!!
That's all good and fun but I've yet to see one person rebut one thing with facts.No one has yet to answer any of my questions either.
1.Again,will someone please tell me how Alt can claim the herd has not been reduced when he stated we had an 8% decrease in the herd in 2001 followed by two record antlerless harvests?
2.Explain with facts and data to support those facts ,how we will have more and bigger bucks once we reach Alt's deer density goals of less than 15 dpsm.
3.Please clue me in on how the b/d ratio can be 1/5 as Alt claimed when I heard him speak?I can prove that's simply impossible.
4.Please explain to me why most of the enclosures near my house look no better inside than out.
5.Please explain why the wmu's were expanded to their present size.
6.Please explain why little has been done to reduce the huge herd of deer in the sra's and in some of our agricultural areas.Why have the biggest antlerless allocations gone to areas such as 2g which have overwintered less than 15 dpsm since 1998.
7.Last,explain why the herd needs to be reduced 50% less than the lands true carrying capacity.
I'm not asking these questions to start an argument.These are all questions that Alt has yet to answer.Every sportsman in the state has a right to know these answers.I hunt in an area that is still 3 times above Alt's deer density goals.There are a significant amount of larger bucks in this area.The problem is,access is restricted in this area and the allocations haven't been increased enough to approach Alt's deer density goals.The deer herd has at least remained stable and more bucks have been saved.From this vantage point,it seems like a great plan but due to the herd not being reduced,it's actually a failure.Once the deer density goals are met in this area,all of Alt's claims will prove he's a liar.How do I know this?I also live and hunt in the only area of the state which has reached Alt's dd goals.I guarantee you,there are less big bucks and less bucks overall.The hunting is the worse than it's ever been.I see it from both sides fellas.If you really support Alt,you must be able to answer those questions.You also must be willing to cut your herd down to below 15 dpsm.Are you willing or able to do any of them?
1.Again,will someone please tell me how Alt can claim the herd has not been reduced when he stated we had an 8% decrease in the herd in 2001 followed by two record antlerless harvests?
2.Explain with facts and data to support those facts ,how we will have more and bigger bucks once we reach Alt's deer density goals of less than 15 dpsm.
3.Please clue me in on how the b/d ratio can be 1/5 as Alt claimed when I heard him speak?I can prove that's simply impossible.
4.Please explain to me why most of the enclosures near my house look no better inside than out.
5.Please explain why the wmu's were expanded to their present size.
6.Please explain why little has been done to reduce the huge herd of deer in the sra's and in some of our agricultural areas.Why have the biggest antlerless allocations gone to areas such as 2g which have overwintered less than 15 dpsm since 1998.
7.Last,explain why the herd needs to be reduced 50% less than the lands true carrying capacity.
I'm not asking these questions to start an argument.These are all questions that Alt has yet to answer.Every sportsman in the state has a right to know these answers.I hunt in an area that is still 3 times above Alt's deer density goals.There are a significant amount of larger bucks in this area.The problem is,access is restricted in this area and the allocations haven't been increased enough to approach Alt's deer density goals.The deer herd has at least remained stable and more bucks have been saved.From this vantage point,it seems like a great plan but due to the herd not being reduced,it's actually a failure.Once the deer density goals are met in this area,all of Alt's claims will prove he's a liar.How do I know this?I also live and hunt in the only area of the state which has reached Alt's dd goals.I guarantee you,there are less big bucks and less bucks overall.The hunting is the worse than it's ever been.I see it from both sides fellas.If you really support Alt,you must be able to answer those questions.You also must be willing to cut your herd down to below 15 dpsm.Are you willing or able to do any of them?
04-07-2004, 10:07 PM
#8
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: PGC just released, Alt resigns!!!
Ok Doug here we go....
1 One of the first things Gary Alt said in his roadshows before this began was that he wasnt completely comfortable with the PGC's methods for determining deer populations. Anyone listening at the time with an objective ear would have expected that he might have to make adjustments/corrections along the way.
2 The change from dpfsm to dpsm would make it look, to the person not able to do the math, like the deer density numbers would go way down. The bottom line is that there are changes but the big picture is relatively unchanged.
3 Go ahead and prove it but please dont quote DD to do it! I dont know a single hunter that would agree that the BD ratio is less than 1/5 anywhere I or my friends hunt. (I'll concede that this is a purely subjective judgement)
4 Dont know, I just know the exclosures I've seen look vastly different. Desert outside, lush and fertile inside. Acid rain and other factors ARE a big factor in some areas
5 To make it simpler on law enforcement and on hunters who cant/wont read their digests. This is one area where I very much question current practice. The only answer I've heard that has persuaded me to grudgingly accept the large DMU's (for now) is that we cant change everything all at once
6 sra's already have huge allocations. Many like 2B, the one I'm most familiar with, did sell out late this year. Longer seasons, unlimited doe tags per hunter, huge numbers of tags all arent enough. Tell me , what would you do different in the SRA's. I'll remind you again that Alt said he didnt have all the answers and that he would keeep trying till he had em.
7 Some lands probably need to be at less than 50% to recover and just killing the deer off won't be enough. replanting, clearcutting etc may also be needed ( I'll say right now, I'm not a forester and all I really know about this is that I've read that just getting rid of the excess deer is only part of the answer) That being said, who's version of the lands "true carrying capacity" are uou referring to?
For the most part, although you and I disagree on much of whats being discussed here, you have put forth reasonable questions here. I have tried to answer the same way. We undoubtedly will continue to disagree on much of it. In the end the final outcome is likely to please neither of us because we are both likley to have some part of this where we will be able to say "I told you so"
Now some questions for you:
1 Gary Alt said over and over and over that we would make mistakes along the way while we worked toward making things better. Why have I never seen anyone from your camp recognize that?
2 Do you not recognize that the quality of the "average buck" has improved markedly in two short years?
3 Do you concede that with over 1 million hunters, Pa is unique in it's deer management challenges?
4 Do you believe it is good for the herd to kill so many yearling bucks that there is virtually no breeding competition among those bucks left?
5 As an avid archer, one of Alts key strategies disrupts part my favorite time in the fall woods. (Early muzzleloader and junior/senior doe disprupts archery hunting as it used to be) I don't mind though, because I believe it is good for the herd. Take a good look in the mirror and ask yourself if your objections are truly based on your belief in whats good for the herd or are you upset because some aspect of your personal hunting prefernces/traditions have been disrupted?
6 we agree that access is a problem. What would you do that Alt is not doing to improve that?
7 Are you aware of Gary Alts success with the bears? There was a lot of screaming and knashing of teeth when he closed the season on em almost 30 years ago. Even more hand wringing occured when he lifted the ban on cubs and guess what? Our bears are healthier and more plentiful than they have ever been in recorded history. What should we have learned from all that?
I hunt other states where the culture and peer pressure imposes voluntary AR. That and other factors not necessarily common with Pa produces more and bigger bucks and a healthy herd. It may not work as well here but I really believe it will be a tremendous help.
I'm sure
[:'(] Darryl and Darryl [:'(] DD for short. will chime in here any minute
1 One of the first things Gary Alt said in his roadshows before this began was that he wasnt completely comfortable with the PGC's methods for determining deer populations. Anyone listening at the time with an objective ear would have expected that he might have to make adjustments/corrections along the way.
2 The change from dpfsm to dpsm would make it look, to the person not able to do the math, like the deer density numbers would go way down. The bottom line is that there are changes but the big picture is relatively unchanged.
3 Go ahead and prove it but please dont quote DD to do it! I dont know a single hunter that would agree that the BD ratio is less than 1/5 anywhere I or my friends hunt. (I'll concede that this is a purely subjective judgement)
4 Dont know, I just know the exclosures I've seen look vastly different. Desert outside, lush and fertile inside. Acid rain and other factors ARE a big factor in some areas
5 To make it simpler on law enforcement and on hunters who cant/wont read their digests. This is one area where I very much question current practice. The only answer I've heard that has persuaded me to grudgingly accept the large DMU's (for now) is that we cant change everything all at once
6 sra's already have huge allocations. Many like 2B, the one I'm most familiar with, did sell out late this year. Longer seasons, unlimited doe tags per hunter, huge numbers of tags all arent enough. Tell me , what would you do different in the SRA's. I'll remind you again that Alt said he didnt have all the answers and that he would keeep trying till he had em.
7 Some lands probably need to be at less than 50% to recover and just killing the deer off won't be enough. replanting, clearcutting etc may also be needed ( I'll say right now, I'm not a forester and all I really know about this is that I've read that just getting rid of the excess deer is only part of the answer) That being said, who's version of the lands "true carrying capacity" are uou referring to?
For the most part, although you and I disagree on much of whats being discussed here, you have put forth reasonable questions here. I have tried to answer the same way. We undoubtedly will continue to disagree on much of it. In the end the final outcome is likely to please neither of us because we are both likley to have some part of this where we will be able to say "I told you so"
Now some questions for you:
1 Gary Alt said over and over and over that we would make mistakes along the way while we worked toward making things better. Why have I never seen anyone from your camp recognize that?
2 Do you not recognize that the quality of the "average buck" has improved markedly in two short years?
3 Do you concede that with over 1 million hunters, Pa is unique in it's deer management challenges?
4 Do you believe it is good for the herd to kill so many yearling bucks that there is virtually no breeding competition among those bucks left?
5 As an avid archer, one of Alts key strategies disrupts part my favorite time in the fall woods. (Early muzzleloader and junior/senior doe disprupts archery hunting as it used to be) I don't mind though, because I believe it is good for the herd. Take a good look in the mirror and ask yourself if your objections are truly based on your belief in whats good for the herd or are you upset because some aspect of your personal hunting prefernces/traditions have been disrupted?
6 we agree that access is a problem. What would you do that Alt is not doing to improve that?
7 Are you aware of Gary Alts success with the bears? There was a lot of screaming and knashing of teeth when he closed the season on em almost 30 years ago. Even more hand wringing occured when he lifted the ban on cubs and guess what? Our bears are healthier and more plentiful than they have ever been in recorded history. What should we have learned from all that?
I hunt other states where the culture and peer pressure imposes voluntary AR. That and other factors not necessarily common with Pa produces more and bigger bucks and a healthy herd. It may not work as well here but I really believe it will be a tremendous help.
I'm sure
[:'(] Darryl and Darryl [:'(] DD for short. will chime in here any minute
