BTBowhunter

Jason, haven't you heard? All the roadkills we've begun to see are being planted by Alt's army! I've even heard rumors that the PGC now has a herd of robo-deer and are touring the state placing them in conspicuos places to fool us into thinking there's too many deer!

Get yer hardhats! The sky is falling!

deaddeer

"Get yer hardhats! The sky is falling! "


No, it's not the sky , it is the buck harvest that is falling. It's down 30% in just two years. Furthermore, if you belive the PGC stats , the herd is increasing,so Alt's great management plan is producing fewer buck with an increasing herd. Not many deer managers could make all those changes and fail so completely.

Jason N

What sets 2G and 2F apart from the rest?

BTBowhunter

Gonna get my order in to Cabela's before they have a run on camo hardhats!

And don't forget Gary Alt's other achievement!!! He has revealed that dinosaurs are actually not extinct in Pennsylvania! The minute he started to outline his plans, dinosaurs came out from all corners of the state to complain!

deaddeer

WMU 2 G is at 12 DPSM , 3 below is goal of 15 DPSM and the herd in 2F has been reduced from 30 DPSM to 24 DPSM. WMU 2G was at its goal when Alt took over , but he reduced the OWDD even more. Here is an example of how well AR worked in 2G. In 2001 they harvested 1159 2.5 buck in Elk Co. and in the second year of AR they harvested 1175 , only 16 more with AR than without. But the total harvest dropped from 2588 in 2001 to 1920 in 2003.

Here is the data from Elk Co. . Notice the harvested more 2.5+ buck in 88 & 89 without AR than they did in 2003 with AR.

Elk County data for 2 1⁄2 year old bucks harvested per year.

Year-------------number of 2 1⁄2 year old bucks harvested---------% of change

82----------------------------911----------------------------------------(N/A)
83----------------------------742----------------------------------------(- 18.6%)
84---------------------------1068----------------------------------------(+ 43.9%)
85----------------------------719----------------------------------------(- 32.7%)
86---------------------------1108----------------------------------------(+ 54.1%)
87---------------------------1012----------------------------------------(- 8.7%)
88---------------------------1351----------------------------------------(+ 33.5%)
89---------------------------1219----------------------------------------(- 9.8%)
90----------------------------969-----------------------------------------(- 20.5%)
91----------------------------795-----------------------------------------(- 18.0%)
92----------------------------859-----------------------------------------(+ 8.1%)
93---------------------------1009-----------------------------------------(+ 17.5%)
94----------------------------977------------------------------------------(- 3.2%)
95----------------------------810------------------------------------------(- 17.1%)
96----------------------------781------------------------------------------(- 3.6%)
97----------------------------803------------------------------------------(+ 2.8%)
98----------------------------738------------------------------------------(- 8.1%)
99----------------------------849------------------------------------------(+ 15.0%)
00----------------------------815------------------------------------------(- 4.0%)
01---------------------------1159------------------------------------------(+ 42.2%)
02----------------------------955------------------------------------------(- 17.6%)
03---------------------------1175------------------------------------------(+ 23.0%)

J Pike

BT.Bowhunter, 1st, thanks for the info on the hunting insurance!! 2nd, Wow!! just looked at your web page and looks like your doing a great job managing your property in IL.!! But I have to ask, Since your such a big Alt supporter How & what are you doing to reduce the herd on your property and how many deer per square mile are you trying to manage your property at? I know your property is in IL. but talking to you on the phone a few months, you told me you had alot of deer on the property. Or wouldnt you want to hunt on a property that had a DD. of 14 or less deer per square mile? The reason I ask is, Many of the guys who hunt on my property in OH. were big Alt supporters and 1 night sitting around the fire we got into an Alt discussion, and they all were curious to know why I was against Alt, because they thought if anybody would be an Alt supporter it would be me, I replied I was that is until I found out that MY and their counties target goal was 5 deer per square mile. I then asked them if they want, we can reduce the herd on the 3,250 acres down to 5 DPSM. and they responded Heck NO!!! And I then asked them, then how can you support Alt, and screw hunters that are forced to hunt public or private land that is open to hunting when there is NO way in heck you would do on land that you control!! Needless to say there was 5 less Alt supporters after that discussion!! Pike

DougE

Jeff,it's all about perception.I know alot of guys that support Alt but would never even consider taking their herds down to level Alt want's.Alot of people don't know what the deer density goals are and alot refuse to think they're possible.I've been saying it for a long time,If you support Alt but refuse to reduce the herd to those levels,you're a hypocrit.I think pretty much along the same lines as you do.I support ar and balancing the herd with the habitat.I just don't support the desired end result or the lies being used to get there.Therfore,I do support many principles of qdm but I can't support Alt.The hunters in this state really need to wake up.

BTBowhunter

Jpike, First , you're welcome! I hope it was helpful and second Thanks for the good words on the website!!!

We cant take credit for much in the way of any truly scientific management though. We just dont control enough continuos acreage! We ask all our members to try to kill a doe but we stop short of requiring it. Our local friends do a good job making sure the doe get killed in the late gun season if the early kill is too low. AS far as our AR, you probably noticed that we have a 125" minimum. We do our best to accomplish that with education and peer pressure. (somethinmg that will never work in Pa's general population of hunters) Occasionally, we kill a 125+" deer that is only 1 1/2 years old. It is an unfortunate fact of life. We dont perform magic. We simply apply a common sense game plan that lets bucks grow older more often than not. Our hunters care about next years buck crop or they don't get to come back next year!
I'm sure that no one including Gary Alt would want a owdd of 5 dpsm anywhere in Illinois (except maybe suburban Chicago)
I'm too dang tired (12 hour day) to go double check the PGC website but if I recall correctly the only areas with an owdd goal of 5 are largely suburban or urban.

deaddeer

So after all the huffing and puffing you have been doing, you finally admit that you don't know what the OWDD goals really are because you are to tired to check them. WMu's 5C and 5B are not all urban and suburban areas. The goal of 5 DPSM is not the cultural carrying capacity ,it is based on the amount and type of forest habitat.

J Pike

BTBowhunter saidLike dead deer pointed out, The reason DR. Alt gave York such a low DD. goal isnt because its urban, Its because York Co. is only 27% forested (mostly farmland) and Alt doesnt consider farmland to be deer habitat. So, if Alt was in charge of the IL. Deer Program you would see similar if not lower DD. goals in IL. because from what I hear from my friends who hunt in Pike Co. every year, Pike Co. IL. is less forested than York Co. PA.,Pike