Doug, I got the quote from someone who attended the conference in Grand Rapids and posted on the Michigan Boards. I do not have a direct link to the 'notes' of the conference.

Isn't it intereseting that Gary Alts speech was titled " The Pennsylvania experience with AR" , and was given to Mich. QDM'rs but he has not had the courtesy to give the same speech to PENNSYLVANIA!

Wouldn't it be nice if Pa hunters couls share in his comments?

Ozoga was not on the list of official speakers, Clute was and Demarus. My impression is that Ozoga participated in the roundtable discussions on "how to screw up hunting, and appease nonhunters the quickest".

It was a QDMA function so the only chance of hearing what they said would be thru them, and as I understand it there is disagreement between states on statewide AR. So I doubt QDMA will post ANYTHING.

Got any names? (with their credentials please)

Another statement based on an incorrect assumption! You obviously have no idea where I or hunters like me hunt. I hunt public, unlimited access land as well as some private land that has unlimited access. I also hunt in areas closed to most. The deer herds are different in each area but ALL the areas I hunt, including areas of the ANF, need some herd reduction. (My unprofessional opinion. I choose to let the professionals decide how much reduction each area still needs.)

Looks like heresay and secondhand information to me. That IS the best way to keep a disinformation campaign going![:'(]

BThunter said ASSumption my foot!! Remember you told me yourself on the phone were you hunt in PA.!!! Now please speak up or shut up!! Like I said before show me one other state agency or biologist that only considers Forested Habitat as deer habitat!! Also please show me one other state agency or biologist that manages their over winter herd at 5-13 deer per square mile!! Infact just show me one other biologist ( from any state other than PA.) that states that forested habitat is the only habitat that should be consdered as " Deer Habitat" or that their proper Over Winter Deer Density should be 13 or less deer per square mile!! You dont have a clue about Alt's plan!! And by the way the only ASSumption I see here is you.

As long as the PGC insists on managing the herd at 13 DPSM ,they will never gain the trust and respect of the average hunter, and when they switch to the biodiversity carrying capacity ,it will only get worse. If they managed the herd at 21 DPSM, like Mich., our goal would be 945K OWD instead of 575K., so we would only need to reduce the herd buy 185K , instead of 555K.

Jeff, first let me apologize for the emphasis on the first part of that word. That was wrong. Doesnt mean I agree with you but I stepped over a line and regret that. I'm going to edit it back out.

Now, that being said, we still disagree....

Once again, you Alt haters love to put things out of context. You're right that I mentioned where I hunt SOME of the time. You obviously assumed that that was the only place I hunt. WRONG!

Your challenge that I find another biologist managing exactly as Alt is doing is kind of worthless given that we all know that each state is different in terms of habitat, hunter demographics, etc. I realize that there are states with similarities but guess what? Some of them are anxiously watching for Pa's results.

Oh and yes, who among these biologists and state agencies that manage their deer in a manner more to your liking have condemned Alts plan?
Names???? Credentials???

According to Webster--anxious (ly) adv. full of anxiety or worry due to apprehension or anticipation of danger or misfortune. Synonyms: concerned, disturbed, apprehensive, fearful, uneasy.

So according to you BT, they are apprehensively, fearfully, uneasily, etc. watching Pa, at last we agree.

BT, I'm sure they are watching Pa closely, they want to see if Alt can prove their most recent, and most comprehensive, findings wrong. I'm sure they are watching closely to see if Pa produces different results than most states are realising they get, in reality, from this type of program. I'm sure they do hope it succeeds in Pa, because up to this point, what was previously considered an unproven philosophy (AR), is being shown to produce troubling results in many places. Up to this point, the results are very mixed, with some troubling findings in the area of Antler Restrictions. So, I'm sure they are watching closely, and hoping for something positive to contradict what they have recently learned the truth of AR to be in some places: a failure.

There was volumes of information put forth at the most recent meeting of the Southeast Deer Study Group, which consists of approximately 350 wildlife biologists and professional deer managers, that indicated AR's don't always do what is promised. Here is one example taken from that study group....
The fact is that there are plenty of respected professionals out there that have found AR's don't do what is promised. Do some research on why antler restrictions were discontinued in western states years ago after, in some cases, decades of trying them.

Here is another article stating it's still an unproven technique.

http://georgiawildlife.dnr.state.ga....=262&txtPage=2

As I've said here before, AR can be a very good thing, when done in a controlled area. But done on a statewide level, in areas that experience moderate to heavy hunting pressure, recent data shows many problems and failures. Yes, they do work sometimes, but just as often, in fact, in situations similar to Pa, MORE often than not, they fail. You just can't seem to admit that there are to sides to this issue. Are you really that easily misled?

How about the whole story next time!

[quote]anx·ious ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ngkshs, ngshs)
adj.
1. Uneasy and apprehensive about an uncertain event or matter; worried.
2. Attended with, showing, or causing anxiety: spent an anxious night waiting for the test results.
3. Usage Problem. Eagerly or earnestly desirous.


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[From Latin nxius, from angere, to torment. See angh- in Indo-European Roots.]
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anxious·ly adv.
anxious·ness n.
Usage Note: Anxious has a long history of use roughly as a synonym for eager, but many prefer that anxious be used only when its subject is worried or uneasy about the anticipated event. In the traditional view, one may say We are anxious to see the strike settled soon but not We are anxious to see the new show of British sculpture at the museum. Fifty-two percent of the Usage Panel rejects anxious in the latter sentence. But general adoption of anxious to mean “eager” is understandable, at least in colloquial discourse, since it provides a means of adding emotional urgency to an assertion. It implies that the subject so strongly desires a certain outcome that frustration of that desire will lead to unhappiness. In this way, it resembles the informal adjective dying in sentences such as I'm dying to see your new baby.[/quote]

Since we're suddenly comparing to Miss. again, I'd like to point out that the 4 point restrinction in Miss. is 4 total pionts....yes, "Y" bucks, forkies, etc. It is quite normal for a 1.5 year old buck to sport Y's. Maybe not as typical as spikes, but certainly not unusual. All that means is they, in Miss., aren't really protecting much more than spikes.

I would like to point out that although Miss. only protects bucks withe less than 4 points, the Miss. AR plan protects a higher percentage of 1.5 buck than any other AR plan. In Miss. 1.5 buck comprise 13% of the buck harvet compared to 57% in PA. In Miss. they harvest less than 50% of their 2.5 buck ,while we harvested around 80% of our 2.5+ buck.

Miss. has the most effective AR program of any state and they still have a problem with high grading. Our high grading problem will be worse ,since we are so effective at harvesting 2.5 + buck. Even the bad weater didn't reduce the 2.5+ buck harvest, although some claim it had a big effect on the 1.5 buck harvest.