The PGC has studied 'collecting data' methods many times. No other state gets any more accurate data with check stations than by the statistical methods used today. It is explained on the PGC web site.

They sent out 30 teams of trained folks (not volunteers manning check stations) to gather data from hunter in the field, processors, road kills, and combined with data collected by the hundred plus WCO's they get all the data they need.

Do they publish that data? No.

The PGC is notorious for treating sportsman like mushrooms. If we were in Michigan there would be spreadsheets and graphs and reports but in Pa people are looking at farcical Field and Stream articles like they are true data. [:'(] They are meant ot sell magazines........ Duh.

That was not directed at you NJhunter, and I do not mean any disrespect to your state using checkstations, but I am merely pointing out that Dr. Alt has looked at check stations and said they would provide him nothing in data that he doesn't already have.

They collect the data now, but do not want to advertise the information because it is not always condusive to thier message. As dead deer pointed out with the emphasis on high antlerless harvests in pa we will and always have harvested 25% of that number as button bucks. Doesn't make thier "more and bigger buck" statement look very credible when you consider the increased emphasis on doe harvest means less deer overall and with it less buck harvest. ( as witnessed by our last three seasons dropping buck harvest.)

Man, if you are hoping that studying AL deer in the woods and to determine if its a BB will save the Pa deer situation, then you are grasping at straws! You will either end up not taking does at the rate Dr. Alt wants, thus not reaching reductions goals because you let too many walk, or you'll whack a BB just like we always have for millenia.
Sorry but you can't have it both ways. Reductions mean less buck, and stressing over a few BB will just give you......well stress.

Check stations are another attempt to grasp at straws. It is not the answer to any question in Pa.

chickory, we disagree on the check station issue, but I agree with everything else you posted. My point being, if Alt really believes that the doe to buck ratio was 14 to 1 in 2001, whatever method he used was really screwed up. And he should be smart enough to know those numbers are bogus. If not, then you guys in Pa are REALLY in trouble.

While the numbers may reflect the actual ratio of deer trapped during the study, it shows how misleading the results from a study with a small size may be. I have the official PGC stats for Jan. 2001 when there were 55K adult buck and 412K adult females. for a ratio of 1:7.4.
Since the state wide herd has been increasing not decreasing, adding the 38K buck saved by AR could not come close to reducing the over wintering adult B/D to 1:2 as the study indicated.

Also,note that before AR we carried over 55K adult buck in 2001 and with AR in 2002 we carried over 80K, which would be an increase of 25K ,not the 38K Alt claimed AR saved in 2002.

The truth is,in many area where the herd is still increasing or at least remaining stable,more bigger bucks are bound to survive.Unfortunately,many fail to realize how low the dd goals are.Once this these goals are realized,there will be fewer bucks and fewer bigger bucks then ever before.I live in the one area where these goals have been met and I can attest to that.I'm in the woods and fields glassing constantly and the last two years where the worst I've ever seen in my entire life.I've only seen a couple bucks so far this year and neither of them where even legal.It would be interesting and more realistic if they did a buck study in this area.That would be the only way to paint o a picture of the future since we're the only area at Alt's goals.Some areas will be better hunting for the next few years.Just don't lose sight of the fact that things will drastically change for the worse once those areas get below 15 dpsm.

I would concur with Douge's comment on the reduced areas. I do not think that some hunters even know what you mean Doug. They can still go out in thier area and see 2 or three deer in one day. No worries. But when the herd gets down to what I have seen (5 to 10dpsm) and then there are a million doe tags available, your sightings drop off quicky. In the 2003 season several hunters went days without seeing deer and I think that will continue in our area for 2004. When more hunters experience that hunting then you will hear a lot more discussions about HR.

We are not seeing many deer in the supposed good area this summer either. Supposedly southern counties are supposed to be way over populated, but while groundhog hunting and scouting or spotlighting we are not seeing any bucks and few doe. I'm holding out until closer to fall to see if i have to move again, but its not real peachy so far. And yet there is food everywhere. The rain is really making stuff grow. Can't say they moved to find food.

Deaddeer, your insight on the buck situation is something I wish more guys had access to read. What I mean is that I was once as optomistic as anyone about all the buck that AR would produce. But time has not born that reality out. We may have a few more 2.5 's around, but with declining numbers of deer overall, it is a wash. I know it has not nearly met the expectation of guys I am talking to. You seem to have a good read on the Pa situation, If I had logged on here a long time ago I probably would not have had unrealistic expectations that AR with HR would produce "more" and bigger bucks as is printed in much of the PGC propoganda.

I hunt primarily in Wyoming county and Clearfield county.For the most part, deer sightings and sign are way down in northern Clearfield county except for a few places with limited access.I haven't been to Wyoming county since last winter but my brother claims to be seeing a ton of deer and some decent bucks.This area of southern 3c is over double the dd goal that Alt has set.What's strange is that 3c has a decrease of about 3000 antlerless tags this year.This makes no sense when you lokk at 2g.This is the only unit in the state that is below the dd goals yet,we'll see more antlerless tags this year.

I have a simple question for you??

Why do ya'll shoot button bucks? Why dont you just shoot does and atleast give the bucks a year before they get blasted?? Just wondering.

I have no problem with someone shooting them in an area that drastically needs herd reductions.In a case like that,and there are some areas that have way too many deer,shoot any deer you can.However,I personally wouldn't shoot one.I like having bucks around and I can't see taking the time to cut a deer up and get 15 lbs of lean boned meat.I certainly wouldn't pay someone $50 to cut one up either.

Chicory did make one very good point. The PGC is lousy at diseminating information but after seeing some of the number crunching here it's not hard to understand why. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Taking the number crunching that old DD does here is kinda like letting the family veterinarian perform brain surgery on you!

Besides, no one has yet come up with a rebuttal to the fact that the vast majority of game biologists, managers and other professionals in this field have continued to be supportive of Alts plans. The vast majority of Alts critics are self appointed experts that do something else to make a living.



Oh and one more question about the bb's you killed DD. Did you guys work at killing buck fawns intentionally or do you just not care enough to avoid shooting them?

I know this may be hard for you to believe, but many PA hunters only get one ethical shot at a legal deer during the entire season. When that opportunity occurs they often only have a few seconds to decide if the deer is legal and to shoot or pass.


Furthermore, since the goal is to reduce the herd by 50%, the only way that can happen is if we harvest a whole lot of fawns ,since they are the easiest deer to harvest. If we pass on alll fawns in order to save BB,we will never come close to reaching the statewide goal of 13 DPSM. Even with 1 M anterless tags and a 2 week anterless season we have more deer than we have ever had in the state and alt's herd reduction plan is a miserable failure,except in 2 G where the herd is at 12 DPSM which makes hunting lousey.