Attn DE Deer Hunters
02-25-2004, 07:29 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wilmington Delaware USA
Posts: 699
Attn DE Deer Hunters
Below are links to 2 stories that appeared in todays News Journal. It appears DE Fish and Wildlife is going ahead on their plan to institute Shotgun Hunting Days over the weekends in October to 'control' the 'swelling' whitetail population. If you are a gun hunter, you'll probably love it. If you are an Archer, your quality hunting days in October are numbered. If your are deer hunter of any kind, you should question Fish and Wildlifes reasonings and motives and the future of the herd. I have almost finished my letter to Mr. Moore in opposition to these seasons and my reasons for the opposition. Once sent, I'll post it to this thread. It'll explain my views. I look forward to hearing other DE Hunter opinions. This will be updated tomorrow. Thanks.
http://www.delawareonline.com/newsjo...espondsto.html
http://www.delawareonline.com/newsjo...gtrophybu.html
http://www.delawareonline.com/newsjo...espondsto.html
http://www.delawareonline.com/newsjo...gtrophybu.html
02-26-2004, 11:42 AM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Slower Lower Delaware 1st State
Posts: 1,776
RE: Attn DE Deer Hunters
I have a reasonable amount of faith in our F&W division in Delaware. IMO the seasons could be adjusted without any long term detriment to total herd and buck/doe ratio.
The Jan season is almost a total panty waste. Very few hunters and few animals taken in Jan. Bottom line is far to many hunters go after the old buck and truth be told most never see one (within gun range). In the mean time Delaware buck/doe ratio is out of whack in many areas.
Plain and simple hunters need to take more does. Farmers need to allow more hunting from a selective group of hunters. F&W needs to adjust seasons as they have suggested and have a better tracking system for kills.
Reading between the lines in the Journal article, it appears F&W might reinstate the deer ck in stations or similar accurate tracking system.
Time will Tell
The Jan season is almost a total panty waste. Very few hunters and few animals taken in Jan. Bottom line is far to many hunters go after the old buck and truth be told most never see one (within gun range). In the mean time Delaware buck/doe ratio is out of whack in many areas.
Plain and simple hunters need to take more does. Farmers need to allow more hunting from a selective group of hunters. F&W needs to adjust seasons as they have suggested and have a better tracking system for kills.
Reading between the lines in the Journal article, it appears F&W might reinstate the deer ck in stations or similar accurate tracking system.
Time will Tell
02-26-2004, 04:08 PM
#3
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wilmington Delaware USA
Posts: 699
RE: Attn DE Deer Hunters
I agree AJ. We need to take more Does. As for trusting Fish & Game, I'm not so sure.
Below is a Letter I Emailed Mr. Moore and I will be snail mailing the Director something similar tomorrow. I apologize for the long read, but when it comes to deer, you cant shut me up!
. I look forward to other Ideas and opinions, Pro or Con. Thanks!
This morning I was greatly disturbed when I read of the proposed 2004 -
2005 Deer Season changes in the articles 'State Responds to Deer Problems' by Molly Murray and 'Killing trophy bucks does little good' by J.L. Miller in the February 25th edition of The News Journal.
I simply cannot believe that the division would consider placing short
three day shotgun seasons around the October weekends to increase the deer harvest based on so little facts. The division admits in the articles that there is little data on the size of the herd but estimates 'there are
30,000 - 50,000 deer'. That's a pretty large margin of error. I'm sure if
the division is not sure the size of the total herd, it cant be sure of
herd sizes within specific hunting zones. Aggressive herd thinning that
would be acceptable in one zone, could wipe the deer out in another.
The reasons that the articles state for thinning the herd are also vague.
They are as follows:
"Dozen of complaints from farmers each year about crop losses" "Its a hugh loss" : How much of a loss is it? What's the $$ Cost? How much has it increased year over year the past 5 years? These questions have not been answered.
"Deer Ticks carry Lyme disease" : This is true, but I've been bow hunting
in September the last 4 years and have never pulled a Tick off me. How
much has the disease increased the last 5 years?
"Deer can pose road hazards" : From 2000 - 2003 there have been 3 people killed in accidents involving deer. That's an average of less than 1 a year. All deaths are tragic, but if I looked, I bet I could find more
deaths by auto caused by people swerving to miss other wildlife (Dogs,
Cats, Foxes, Opossums, etc) Unless we kill all the deer, people are still
going to hit one every once in a while.
"Heavy Deer foraging is threatening native plants" : The examples given in the article where this is taking place are State Parks where normal hunting seasons do not apply and are therefore misleading. You stated that there are "200 deer per square mile in White Clay State Park" I doubt these kind of numbers exsist in most hunting areas.
What it sounds like to me is there are a few groups, that have alot of
political clout or alot of money who are putting pressure on the division
to decrease the herd numbers. They being:
1) Farmers: Who with no question are losing some crop money to the deer. But are these Farmers opening up their lands to hunters who would gladly take a few deer off their property? I wonder?
2) Suburbanites: Who are buying homes that have been recently built on
old deer habitat that are now upset their flowers and trees are being
grazed on. That's a consequence of habitat destruction. If all the deer
habitat wasn't destroyed, the deer wouldn't be in peoples back yards.
These people are probably the ones most worried about being bitten by deer Ticks. Something must be done to slow down sprawl. The answer isn't to kill more deer.
3) Insurance Companies: Who don't like paying claims on death or property damage caused by deer. These folks don't care about the welfare of the outdoors. They only care about their Balance Sheets. They should be the last people the division listens too when making deer season decisions.
Now there are also many issues that will affect hunters, like myself, if
these seasons are implemented. But they should be addressed at another
time. The articles stated that there would be public workshops open to
discuss all the issues. I hope the public will be informed in a timely
manner as to when and where these workshops will take place. I would like to attend these meetings to hear the 'facts' behind the proposed season changes.
The bottom line is there doesn't seem to be enough information on the size and health of the herd or the amount of real damaged being caused to take aggressive steps to change the seasons. There maybe some less drastic solutions to increase the harvest on a smaller scale. The articles stated there would be two more doe permits included with the 04-05 license. That's a good start. How about making Sunday Hunting legal ONLY during the current Shotgun and Muzzleloader Seasons to give the average working hunter both weekend days to hunt? Maybe some money could be found to pay Farmers who open their lands to public hunting during the deer seasons?
Until I hear some concrete facts that would justify introducing Shotgun
Seasons in October, I will not support them. It might not do much good,
but I will write my Congressmen, Senators and the Governor asking they use their influence to keep the Seasons Status Quo until more research is done. If the seasons are implemented without further study, I will protest by not hunting during them (bow or gun) and I will encourage everyone I can reach, whether they be in earshot, by telephone or across the state via the Internet to do the same.
This is the time to do research, not jump in head first. To do the latter
is negligent and disrespectful to the deer. You can not allow this to
happen.
Thanks for your time and attention.
Below is a Letter I Emailed Mr. Moore and I will be snail mailing the Director something similar tomorrow. I apologize for the long read, but when it comes to deer, you cant shut me up!
. I look forward to other Ideas and opinions, Pro or Con. Thanks!This morning I was greatly disturbed when I read of the proposed 2004 -
2005 Deer Season changes in the articles 'State Responds to Deer Problems' by Molly Murray and 'Killing trophy bucks does little good' by J.L. Miller in the February 25th edition of The News Journal.
I simply cannot believe that the division would consider placing short
three day shotgun seasons around the October weekends to increase the deer harvest based on so little facts. The division admits in the articles that there is little data on the size of the herd but estimates 'there are
30,000 - 50,000 deer'. That's a pretty large margin of error. I'm sure if
the division is not sure the size of the total herd, it cant be sure of
herd sizes within specific hunting zones. Aggressive herd thinning that
would be acceptable in one zone, could wipe the deer out in another.
The reasons that the articles state for thinning the herd are also vague.
They are as follows:
"Dozen of complaints from farmers each year about crop losses" "Its a hugh loss" : How much of a loss is it? What's the $$ Cost? How much has it increased year over year the past 5 years? These questions have not been answered.
"Deer Ticks carry Lyme disease" : This is true, but I've been bow hunting
in September the last 4 years and have never pulled a Tick off me. How
much has the disease increased the last 5 years?
"Deer can pose road hazards" : From 2000 - 2003 there have been 3 people killed in accidents involving deer. That's an average of less than 1 a year. All deaths are tragic, but if I looked, I bet I could find more
deaths by auto caused by people swerving to miss other wildlife (Dogs,
Cats, Foxes, Opossums, etc) Unless we kill all the deer, people are still
going to hit one every once in a while.
"Heavy Deer foraging is threatening native plants" : The examples given in the article where this is taking place are State Parks where normal hunting seasons do not apply and are therefore misleading. You stated that there are "200 deer per square mile in White Clay State Park" I doubt these kind of numbers exsist in most hunting areas.
What it sounds like to me is there are a few groups, that have alot of
political clout or alot of money who are putting pressure on the division
to decrease the herd numbers. They being:
1) Farmers: Who with no question are losing some crop money to the deer. But are these Farmers opening up their lands to hunters who would gladly take a few deer off their property? I wonder?
2) Suburbanites: Who are buying homes that have been recently built on
old deer habitat that are now upset their flowers and trees are being
grazed on. That's a consequence of habitat destruction. If all the deer
habitat wasn't destroyed, the deer wouldn't be in peoples back yards.
These people are probably the ones most worried about being bitten by deer Ticks. Something must be done to slow down sprawl. The answer isn't to kill more deer.
3) Insurance Companies: Who don't like paying claims on death or property damage caused by deer. These folks don't care about the welfare of the outdoors. They only care about their Balance Sheets. They should be the last people the division listens too when making deer season decisions.
Now there are also many issues that will affect hunters, like myself, if
these seasons are implemented. But they should be addressed at another
time. The articles stated that there would be public workshops open to
discuss all the issues. I hope the public will be informed in a timely
manner as to when and where these workshops will take place. I would like to attend these meetings to hear the 'facts' behind the proposed season changes.
The bottom line is there doesn't seem to be enough information on the size and health of the herd or the amount of real damaged being caused to take aggressive steps to change the seasons. There maybe some less drastic solutions to increase the harvest on a smaller scale. The articles stated there would be two more doe permits included with the 04-05 license. That's a good start. How about making Sunday Hunting legal ONLY during the current Shotgun and Muzzleloader Seasons to give the average working hunter both weekend days to hunt? Maybe some money could be found to pay Farmers who open their lands to public hunting during the deer seasons?
Until I hear some concrete facts that would justify introducing Shotgun
Seasons in October, I will not support them. It might not do much good,
but I will write my Congressmen, Senators and the Governor asking they use their influence to keep the Seasons Status Quo until more research is done. If the seasons are implemented without further study, I will protest by not hunting during them (bow or gun) and I will encourage everyone I can reach, whether they be in earshot, by telephone or across the state via the Internet to do the same.
This is the time to do research, not jump in head first. To do the latter
is negligent and disrespectful to the deer. You can not allow this to
happen.
Thanks for your time and attention.
03-05-2004, 07:14 AM
#4
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Newark, DE
Posts: 82
RE: Attn DE Deer Hunters
Duck,
I have mixed feelings about the article's. I'm an average joe who jumps at every chance to go deer hunting so on one hand, while the earlier and more frequent oppertunity to gun hunt would be cool I can't help but think thatwe would be pushing the deer to the safe haven of NO HUNTING property earlier. I live and do 90% of my hunting in New Castle county. We have very little public hunting property. Basically two state parks and the C&D canal area. And whats worse is, as you mentioned, the State parks have their own rules and seasons. Hey I'm not complaining...well I guess I am. I love hunting at White Clay Creek State park. I live and work less than 10 min from the park. I drive through the park on my way to work and on my way home. It's a great park, however the hunting is very, very restricted. Some of the problems as I see them: Hunting is restricted to a twenty yard perimiter of a designated stand site. This limits a hunter ability to hunt. It's more like pot luck. You can't set up based on food or bedding areas etc. Another problem is that many of these stand sites are in plain view (Close) to main walking trails. Boy, the anit hunting public loves that! I can understand having tighter restrictions during gun season but the above mentioned restrictions are in place for bow season.
Some suggestions: As is currently, keep hunting restricted to certin parcels of property, determin an acceptle number of hunters per day for that area and then let the hunter hunt. Ask any of the regular hunters and they will tell you after one or two years the deer know to avoid the designated stand sites. As for the states concern on safety I would also recommend that all hunters be requirered to pass some sort of profeciency test, both shooting and a demonstration of how to use the hunters tree stand safely. This should keep the state rangers from having to keep every one in binocular range as they do now.
With the exception of opening day there are very few bow hunters at WCC. I believe much of the reason for this is because of the short bow season 3-4 weks and all the restrictions. If the state wants to decrease the population of deer in the parks then they will need to loosen up!
Sorry for being long winded and all the spelling mistakes but much like you I can talk hunting all day. I didnt even talk about all the state owned land that is not open to hunting. After a couple of day at the counties land use department I was blown away by learning about all the state owned land in NCC. When I called to aquire about access I was informed that all state owned land was considered animal sanctuary and not huntable. Dosen't sound like the state really wants to reduce the deer population to me!
I have mixed feelings about the article's. I'm an average joe who jumps at every chance to go deer hunting so on one hand, while the earlier and more frequent oppertunity to gun hunt would be cool I can't help but think thatwe would be pushing the deer to the safe haven of NO HUNTING property earlier. I live and do 90% of my hunting in New Castle county. We have very little public hunting property. Basically two state parks and the C&D canal area. And whats worse is, as you mentioned, the State parks have their own rules and seasons. Hey I'm not complaining...well I guess I am. I love hunting at White Clay Creek State park. I live and work less than 10 min from the park. I drive through the park on my way to work and on my way home. It's a great park, however the hunting is very, very restricted. Some of the problems as I see them: Hunting is restricted to a twenty yard perimiter of a designated stand site. This limits a hunter ability to hunt. It's more like pot luck. You can't set up based on food or bedding areas etc. Another problem is that many of these stand sites are in plain view (Close) to main walking trails. Boy, the anit hunting public loves that! I can understand having tighter restrictions during gun season but the above mentioned restrictions are in place for bow season.
Some suggestions: As is currently, keep hunting restricted to certin parcels of property, determin an acceptle number of hunters per day for that area and then let the hunter hunt. Ask any of the regular hunters and they will tell you after one or two years the deer know to avoid the designated stand sites. As for the states concern on safety I would also recommend that all hunters be requirered to pass some sort of profeciency test, both shooting and a demonstration of how to use the hunters tree stand safely. This should keep the state rangers from having to keep every one in binocular range as they do now.
With the exception of opening day there are very few bow hunters at WCC. I believe much of the reason for this is because of the short bow season 3-4 weks and all the restrictions. If the state wants to decrease the population of deer in the parks then they will need to loosen up!
Sorry for being long winded and all the spelling mistakes but much like you I can talk hunting all day. I didnt even talk about all the state owned land that is not open to hunting. After a couple of day at the counties land use department I was blown away by learning about all the state owned land in NCC. When I called to aquire about access I was informed that all state owned land was considered animal sanctuary and not huntable. Dosen't sound like the state really wants to reduce the deer population to me!
03-05-2004, 05:23 PM
#5
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Townsend, DE US
Posts: 6,429
RE: Attn DE Deer Hunters
DE Hunter I am chairman of the State parks advisory council and I sit on the wildlife committee for the parks, we have a seerios problem at WCC and Lums , and Trap Pond , for the first time this year we might open for deer hunting at Killens. Tell me what you want, keeping in mind that these are public access parks. We sare going to have a meeting sometime soon and give me some ammo for the meeting. I dont hunt there so I am not familiaar, A few years ago I put the kubots on squirrel hunting there, so help me get this info in the meeting... Ron
03-06-2004, 12:42 PM
#6
Fork Horn
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Plattsburgh NY - Living in Felton DE
Posts: 362
RE: Attn DE Deer Hunters
RonM, I am very interested in the chance of opening Killens to hunting. I live on campgroung rd. across the strret of the campsite entrance. I watch herds of 15-20 deer go in and out of Killens every night. I would be great to hunt next door to my house, keep me posted.
03-09-2004, 01:21 PM
#7
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Newark, DE
Posts: 82
RE: Attn DE Deer Hunters
Hello RonM, sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Now that deer season is over I don't check the board very ofter. Let me stary by saying both Duck and the News Journal articals got me a bit fired up and I used my response to his post as a oppertunity to vent. I very much enjoy the oppertunity and privilage to be able to hunt and WCC St park. My family and I are year round visitors. During the hunting season the park staff does an excellent job in assuring the safety of both hunters and the public!
You where not specific as to the serious problems that are occuring at WCC and Lums so I will assume it's overpopulation. I believe that the state could increase both 1. the number of hunters at the parks and 2 the number of deer harvested with a few changes in the current program. (I believe the programs at WCC and Lums are different and I have only hunted at WCC so all my comments are directed at WCC.)
1. Lengthen Bow season.
2. During Bow season eliminate the "must go to X stand site" and hunt within a 20yrd circle rule. Insted the state has already determined that each peice of property, Judge Morris, Possim Hill, etc. can support X number of hunters, let the hunters determine/decide where within that property they want to "set up". This would allow the hunters to hunt insted of "gee I hope a deer walks by"!
3. If the above is not acceptable than I would seggest to shuffle or re-locate the existing stand locations every two to three years. Over the past three years several new Archery only areas have been created/added. The harvest in most of these areas has been very successful. Also this past year a few of the old wood stands where re-located, some only 50 yrds but the sucess level at the new locations was great. This is a great strategy and I wish they would move stands on a regular basis. We hunters will provide the labor!
4. It would be great if the park would sponsor a archery clinic during the off season so kids and wives can enjoy the sport of archery or sponsor a 3D shoot borrowing the targets from Ommelanden range! Again if it where advertised I'm sure you could get hunters to provide all the necessary labor.
5. Allow shotgun hunting from climbing tree stands. make hunters show protective gear.
6. Move all stand sites far from the public view. I personally have been harassed by people riding bikes during hunting season. Even though I was in cammo from head to toe, when some of the stands are less that 20 yrds from a main trail it's hard not to be seen.
A couple things the state could do to help maintain safety and control of the program.
1. Require all archery & gun hunters to pass a proficientcy test before being issued a archery permit and gun permit (Ommelanden). This may seem like a deterent and maby it would be but if the state was willing loosen up the rules, I believe it would fly!
2. Require hunters to carry two way radios and check in at designated times.
I realize I'm not going to make any friends by offering these suggestions but speeking for myself, as a hunter who apperciates the oppertunity to use WCC, I would be willing to do any of these if the rules could be somewhat changed/ relaxed.
And yes there are some FAT squirrels in the park! I would love to have the chance to take a few!
Again sorry for the spelling errors, is there a way to run spell check? -Ken
You where not specific as to the serious problems that are occuring at WCC and Lums so I will assume it's overpopulation. I believe that the state could increase both 1. the number of hunters at the parks and 2 the number of deer harvested with a few changes in the current program. (I believe the programs at WCC and Lums are different and I have only hunted at WCC so all my comments are directed at WCC.)
1. Lengthen Bow season.
2. During Bow season eliminate the "must go to X stand site" and hunt within a 20yrd circle rule. Insted the state has already determined that each peice of property, Judge Morris, Possim Hill, etc. can support X number of hunters, let the hunters determine/decide where within that property they want to "set up". This would allow the hunters to hunt insted of "gee I hope a deer walks by"!
3. If the above is not acceptable than I would seggest to shuffle or re-locate the existing stand locations every two to three years. Over the past three years several new Archery only areas have been created/added. The harvest in most of these areas has been very successful. Also this past year a few of the old wood stands where re-located, some only 50 yrds but the sucess level at the new locations was great. This is a great strategy and I wish they would move stands on a regular basis. We hunters will provide the labor!
4. It would be great if the park would sponsor a archery clinic during the off season so kids and wives can enjoy the sport of archery or sponsor a 3D shoot borrowing the targets from Ommelanden range! Again if it where advertised I'm sure you could get hunters to provide all the necessary labor.
5. Allow shotgun hunting from climbing tree stands. make hunters show protective gear.
6. Move all stand sites far from the public view. I personally have been harassed by people riding bikes during hunting season. Even though I was in cammo from head to toe, when some of the stands are less that 20 yrds from a main trail it's hard not to be seen.
A couple things the state could do to help maintain safety and control of the program.
1. Require all archery & gun hunters to pass a proficientcy test before being issued a archery permit and gun permit (Ommelanden). This may seem like a deterent and maby it would be but if the state was willing loosen up the rules, I believe it would fly!
2. Require hunters to carry two way radios and check in at designated times.
I realize I'm not going to make any friends by offering these suggestions but speeking for myself, as a hunter who apperciates the oppertunity to use WCC, I would be willing to do any of these if the rules could be somewhat changed/ relaxed.
And yes there are some FAT squirrels in the park! I would love to have the chance to take a few!
Again sorry for the spelling errors, is there a way to run spell check? -Ken
03-09-2004, 04:40 PM
#8
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wilmington Delaware USA
Posts: 699
RE: Attn DE Deer Hunters
Fish and Game got back to me today via email about the letter I sent to Mr. Moore. He said he would address my points in more detail in the next couple days. I'll post the response to this thread.
He did say the workshops would be held in April and a public hearing would be held in June before the Regs are posted in July.
Once we find out where and when these meetings are held, we DE Hunters need to attend. I dont mean just to go and raise hell, but to go and hear Fish and Game out. I admit Im a little bias because I feel October Shotgun seasons will greatly affect Archery Hunters quality time afield in a negative way. But, if F&G could truly prove that a thinning of the herd was needed for the sake of the deer, not special interest groups, I'd be more than willing to get out there and blast away. I just dont think there are that many deer out there and I really dont think that weekend shotgun seasons would get the job done long term. Yeah, the first year you'll catch them with their tails down, but after the first few days of shotgun blasts, they'll get smart and adapt. I dont know, guess we'll just have to hear F&G out and see what happens from there.
He did say the workshops would be held in April and a public hearing would be held in June before the Regs are posted in July.
Once we find out where and when these meetings are held, we DE Hunters need to attend. I dont mean just to go and raise hell, but to go and hear Fish and Game out. I admit Im a little bias because I feel October Shotgun seasons will greatly affect Archery Hunters quality time afield in a negative way. But, if F&G could truly prove that a thinning of the herd was needed for the sake of the deer, not special interest groups, I'd be more than willing to get out there and blast away. I just dont think there are that many deer out there and I really dont think that weekend shotgun seasons would get the job done long term. Yeah, the first year you'll catch them with their tails down, but after the first few days of shotgun blasts, they'll get smart and adapt. I dont know, guess we'll just have to hear F&G out and see what happens from there.
03-11-2004, 12:49 AM
#9
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Slower Lower Delaware 1st State
Posts: 1,776
RE: Attn DE Deer Hunters
I would listen to RON M very closely and post your productive comments along with attending any F&W meetings.
I went to a Delaware F&W QDM meeting 2 yrs ago - Very productive and educational. My wife has worked for Delaware state parks for many moons and works down the hall from F&W - I went to school with Moore - A Good Man!
Listen, Attend,Voice your opinions for change! If you don't speak up and attend meetings - shame on you!
Bottom line is F&W wants US to take out more Does in all 3 counties!
My .02
I went to a Delaware F&W QDM meeting 2 yrs ago - Very productive and educational. My wife has worked for Delaware state parks for many moons and works down the hall from F&W - I went to school with Moore - A Good Man!
Listen, Attend,Voice your opinions for change! If you don't speak up and attend meetings - shame on you!
Bottom line is F&W wants US to take out more Does in all 3 counties!
My .02
