Does a Pa WCO
 

have the right to enter my private property without probable cause? an if so must he produce to me the verifable probable cause if I request it when I stop them on my property?
ie, if I'm driving my old truck around on my farm and a WCO shows up..1. must he walk in only 2. when I ask him just what the lleh he's doing there must he produce to me proof that he had cause to enter my property without my permission prior to going any further?

The specifics may vary across states, but the state regulations generally state something to the effect that game wardens are empowered to enter all lands in the course of their duties. The standard for probable cause is generally pretty low: suspicion that hunting is occurring, hearing a gunshot, getting reports of illegal activity in the general area. Would assume that is pretty much the situation in PA since there have been recent moves in the state to restrict the powers of GW's.

My understanding that a warden can in the course of his duty enter all lands except a curtilage (the enclosed area immediately surrounding a house or dwelling) without a warrant. No government agent has the right to enter a curtilage without a warrant or probable cause.

That's probably why the WCO is snooping around your place...you gave him probable cause!!!! LOL In all seriousness, they DO patrol the internet, specifically looking for guys bragging about poaching and stupid stuff...I heard that they can also get your personal imformation from your profile and use it to verify the legality of any photos you post online of game, or claims to have filled tags. IE, I posted pics of my gobbler last spring...in theory they could request access to my personal info, to verify it was legal, and my harvest reported. Dunno how much truth in that...but they are HERE online frequently...and not just to debate the deer program!

I assumed they could wiggle in with the slightest suspect or made up allegation but do they have any right to drive unto my property?...provided of course they aren't chasing someone.

I've no doubt some wannabe like a dep or bored WCO might prowl the net but if they have the time to do that makes me wonder who's in the field checking for scofflaws

If they can walk on the property, they can generally drive on it as well.

guess I'll need to pull the gate shut an lock it at the end of the lane..it's nearly 1/2 mile back to my place and I doubt they'll walk that far for fear the birds will eat their crumb trail and get lost

this is true, and i believe it is the eves of the house they cant go past w/o a warrant..unless they have probable cause....if they ask if you have meat in the freezer, and you say yes..thats probable cause... game wardens have the largest jurisdiction in the state, even more than Texas Rangers in Texas.

If i recall correctly this general topic came up a while back. A police officer chimed in and said that there are actually a number of circumstances where officers can enter a yard and even a house without a search warrant.

^^ If there is immediate danger, ya they can enter. Say you hear someone screaming for help. They are allowed to go in. Several reasons that they could go in. But thats a pretty easy example.
-Jake

I was told by someone long before internet fourms that a WCO is the only lawenforcement agencey that can enter your home with out a warrant. Is it true or was it ever the case at one time?

:lolabove:
LMAO! That's how they collect resources for shows like,Worlds most Stupid Criminals.

R.W.J can give a definite answer on this. But I'll share how it worked for someone I turned in. I called the southwest office about a fellow who shot deer without a license during and after the season. Two officers showed up at his house. Right away the noticed deer hair in his truck and scattered along his driveway to the basement entrance in back of his house. They then knocked on his door and told him why they where their. They asked to look in his basement. He said,I don't have any deer and your not coming in without a warrant. They said no problem. One of the officers got on the phone and less then an hour,two more officers showed up with a warrant. He was convicted with possession of nine illegal deer.

That sounds like by the book law enforcement to me. They received a credible complaint, did an unobtrusive search that revealed physical evidence, and then were able to obtain a search warrant. Things would probably turn out much differently, if they simply randomly knocked on doors and asked people if they had game in their freezers and then demanded to search them.

blkpwdr good for you for reporting illegal activity but I wonder just how minute the % is of game law violators EVER get caught...most get out of sight from a road an go about their biz .
My main question is whether or not a WCO may drive onto my property or must they put their doughnuts & coffee down and walk in if univited an not chasing someone. And "if" they are allowed to drive their Jeep onto my field is the State responsible for any damage they may cause. Or am I expected to weather the cost for their stupidity?

I had never heard of it before, but it turns out that there are lawyers that specialize in Fish and Game laws. I found information on such lawyers in Colorado, Alaska, and Utah. Dunno if there are such folks in PA, but if you are that concerned about this issue, it might be best to locate one of them and get a consulation on what your specific rights are.

Heck, why go out in the field looking for scofflaws when they can be found right here..............



Looks like someone just gave the WCO's some probable cause:busted:

Dunno how much truth there is to it, but i was told that this year in Illinois, the GW's were very limited in how much vehicle patrolling they could do because of budget cuts. So, wouldnt be surprising if more of them end up surfing the net for lawbreakers.

A wco cannot walk into your house without a search warrant and they can't just go walking accross your property unless it's in the course of their duties.For instance,if there's primam facia eveidence that you are hunting(walking with weapon,hearing a shot etc.)they can enter your property on foot or in a vehicle to investigate.

Doug,

That is roughly my understanding. However, hearing a shot can be used as just cause for searching hundreds of acres in the general area of where the shot originated. Also, I think that GW's can also make the case that just seeing people moving in an area can be just cause for assuming they may be hunting and then checking them out.

There was recently a case in Ohio that seemed to indicate that courts may look less favorably on GW's who enter property without being able to demonstrate that they knew that hunting was going on. But i havent heard any updates on it.

Every state may be different.In Pa they have to have a reason to come on your property.If they have reasonable suspician that you're hunting,they can come on and check you out.

The one common feature across states is that the standards for probable cause for entering private property are very low as well as very vague. I've never heard of an instance where a GW was required to prove that he heard a shot from a specific area before he went there to investigate.

I was simply using that as an example.You misunderstood or I wasn't clear.Just seeing a person that apears to be hunting is probable cause to come on the property and check him out.They don't have to fire a shot.

A WCO only needs a tip or reasonable suspicion to enter posted land. Searches of houses and curtiledge require a warrant except in a very few instances. He does not have to inform you of his purpose other than to say he is conducting an investigation, However I would try to enlighten the landowner as much as I could without compromising the investigation. If there were established roads I may drive in, if there isn’t WCO’s aren’t going to make their own trail. I prefer being dropped off and walking in.
If you google "Open Fields Doctrine" It will explain

Not arguing with you, was just expanding somewhat on the issue of probable cause and entry onto private property. I'm very interested in the issue from a matter of legal policy, so am always keeping an eye out for situations where GW's get in trouble for unreasonable searches. havent found any yet, although i am sure that it happens.

I as well as the other WCO's on the board donate my time to answer questions.

I'm very interested in everything you have to say on the issue.

Not sure why you feel the need to take little jabs like that at WCO's. I guess it's easy when you can throw insuts from behind a computer in anonmity.
I dont eat doughnuts ( I do drink coffee) and I can shure as heck cover alot of ground on foot without a bag of bread crumbs.

Brother, you said a mouthful there! lol

I've got a question about the Open Field Doctrine. If entering an open area like that does not constitute a search, then why does there need to be any kind of tip or reasonable suspicion? Couldn't GW's simply go out and do foot patrols on private property in much the same manner as a beat cop walks the streets without having to articulate any reason to do so?

not all of us are gonna agree on everything but I do try to respect everyone and thier opinon. Had a plumber once that padded the bill on me, but doesnt make me think all plumbers are crooks and I sure as heck am not gonna run them all down because of thier profession.

Every one likes to bust on the WCOs about game laws. Does anybody thank them when they increase hunting opportunities by convincing private land owners to open or keep open their land for public hunting.

Good point pats. If im not mistaken, i believe they are responsible for signing up many if not most (maybe all?) of the co-op lands. Great program!

Most Land Management groups have a Farm Game Manager, he is responsible for signing up and keeping the farmers happy He concentrates on blocks of farms.. The WCO signs up people in that dont fit into a block of other farms. I had two signs ups this year, and working with a Township now that borders SGL 232. The WCO is responsible for patrolling all enrolled properties and addressing landowner concers over illegal activity.

From what I see, not nearly enough!:wave:

We should all think about what RWJ said about donating his time. How many of us would come home from work, turn on the computer and offer to "talk shop" where more often than not, offering your help just gets you an argument or an insult?

This thread started out with a ,more or less, loaded question just itching for a dispute. The personal shots were unnecessary unless the original purpose was really just a flame war.

Do the wooded tracts fall in this category?

RWJ : My main purpose of posing the question was so I had some sort of idea what I must tolerate in the future.
Twice now I had my grain field (s) driven over by a WCO and his Dep. while patroling for late night shooting in the area of my farm, soy bean field sustain loads of damage when wet and driven on or when the plants are green and wet.
In one case I confronted the DWCO face to face an asked who gave him permission to drive in the field ( there is a 2 track tractor path 1/2 way around the field). His reply was he had wanted to hide the truck and wait along the edge of the field in the woods for late spotlighters. To which I replied well who's going to pay for the lost beans an ruts in the field...he shrugged and walked off to meet his partner parked in my woods and hiding next to the 2 track where it entered the field thru the woods.
The other case was when the same WCO with a trainee in his Dodge truck was stuck in another wet silage cut corn field. when he knocked on my door to ask if I could pull him out with my tractor he explained he was parked there so he could watch with binos for illegal turkey hunters on the nearby Gamelands. He had ruts 8" deep for 100 yds back to where he was stuck. Never did he offer to repair any damage but did thank me for pulling him out.
In neither case did the WCO or the Dep. have any reason to trespass on my land in hopes that an infraction might take place. An the crumb comment comes from them not wanting to walk a few hundred yards or wait in the rain.

I would never set up for night patrol on anyones property without asking. If things happend just the way you said you should contact your Regional Office and talk with the L.E. Supervisor. I can understand why you would be upset with the situation.

The PGC must like to drive in farmer's fields.


Several years ago during dove season a buddy of mine was hunting with a few of his buddies. They were parked in a field. In the middle of the field was a large, old oak tree. They were sitting in the shade of the tree when a GW came down the long lane/driveway.

He immediately drove through the field up to the oak tree. He jumped out shouting, "I want to see everyone's license right now!"

He check everyone's license and the shell capacity of each gun. He then went on a rant about parking the vehicle in the field below. He wanted to know who's vehile it was and said they would be getting a fine.

My buddy with the vehicle started to chuckle. The GW wasn't too happy when he did that and became more irrate. The GW started to write him up. In a very confrontational attitude, the GW wanted to know why he parked in the field. My buddy just shrugged his shoulders and said "I don't know, I just did!"

When the GW ask where he was from, my buddy pointed to the house at the end of the lane. The GW had a shocked look on his face and then ask, "Do you own this property?"

My buddy nodded his head and said, "Yes, I do!"

The GW started to apologize. My buddy started to chew him out for driving through the field. Aking why he just couldn't have rolled down the window and ask about who's vehicle was there and if they had permission, rather than drive through the field.

The GW had a real change of attitude and kept saying he was sorry.

I don't know, maybe the PGC like to test out the 4WD on their vehicles by driving through farmer's fields.

The issue of GW's driving onto private land like that seems fairly common. I have never heard of it happening in the part of Illinois where I live. I think that in most instances GW's with any sense are not going to park their vehicle and walk in unless absolutely necessary, largely because they know that they are leaving their vehicle all alone while they are off doing stuff that is likely to irritate the locals. To my knowledge, the GW's in my area do only roads patrols and do safety/license checks on people entering and leaving the woods. Never heard of a GW actually walking on to property unless responding to a complaint.