I really dont like the PA game commission
 

shouldnt have antler restrictions, i dont get whats the big deal about what you get. i know the stupid game commission is trying to make more mature deer. im goin by what my dad says, he's been hunting the same woods for 40 years and the last 8 or whatever with the AR has been the same except for the number of deer. same small baskets and a couple big ones run around. he doesnt have fun hunting any more because of the AR, my dad doesnt find it enjoyable not even having a chance because its so hard to count the points(has to be 4pts on a side where we hunt) maybe unless its a big rack and and he takes a chance it has enough points. we saw 4 buck and all were baskets.1 big 8 was the only nice buck seen and shot all day and its a pretty big area. its my last year as a junior and i got a 6pt. but if i was 17 i would have never taken a shot at that deer, wouldnt of been able to count points. i think the AR is dumb. also having the doe and buck season together AND giving out a billion doe tags. PA game commission needs a new president or something. it should for sure be changed

Uh oh, now you did it:biggrin:

:popcorn:

It seems most hunters in my area generally support antler restrictions. Some dont. But you'll find VERY few who are happy about hr, the bazillion doe tags, and the game commissions slaughter the herd for the welfare of the wildflowers etc campaign.

in my area we cannot shoot doe till saturday. Unless you have dmaps
I think ARs have done good in my area , butours is only 3pt

Waaa waaa waaa
I didn't get a buck!
waaa waaa waaa

Then perhaps you shouldve hunted longer and harder rybo.

As with most years, I got mine archery season. Though going against your logic (or lack thereof) I still dont approve of mismanagement & a failed deer program & excessive ridiculous reduction implemented by the "greenies" at the trillium & hobblebush commission. lmao.

It is "surprising" to hear some irrational nonsense though. We generally get a break from it when btb is at camp or out of state.:happy0157:

Pgc
 

I can see most of your points and views about the antler restrictions and most are valid. I live and hunt in southwestern, Pennsylvania and we don't have a problem with the 4-point to a side restriction rule. In other parts of the state where deer herds are down (mainly due to the slaughtering of does, poaching, EHD and whatever else) I can see your point(s). The thing I hate most about Pennsylvania's game commission laws/rules is two things.

1.) Why do they take archery (bow season) out when the rut starts to kick in and then you can hunt until gun season?

2.) You should be able to harvest a buck with a bow and also with a gun.

I also would like to add that I also hunt in neighboring West Virginia and this is one place without an antler restriction and they (WVDNR) have ruined the hunting there by the slaughtering of does and the selling of extra tags.
In West Virginia it's legal to take up to something like 13 deer in 1 season. I'm NOT saying we in Pennsylvania should be able to do that but we should be able to harvest (1) buck with a bow, (1) buck with a rifle/muzzleloader.

WV is comparable in size to Pa, has higher deer densities for the most part in many areas and has Under three hundred thousand hunters.

By comparison Pa has around 900,000.

As for 2 buck, like the concept, but I dont see it as ever gonna happen unless hunter rate of decline went off the charts. Too many guys not getting one already for some of us to take 2. We are already splitting a paltry 109-120,000 buck harvest among 900,000 hunters. Quality would also degrade at least somewhat. Something we dont have a ton of to begin with. These things imho outweigh need for more opportunity in the way of a 2 buck harvest, though your opinion may differ and i have no problem with that.:happy0001:

I agree about archery season. No reason for it to end so early. They said it wasnt a biological issue with adding xbows, so there should be no problem with adding a couple weeks like other states have. Archery harvest is comparatively small, and doe tags could be adjusted if needed.

i wish we had antler restrictions in connecticut. way to many yearling bucks get shot it is a shame.

i like the 1 week buck, then one week both maybe even less for doe like the way it was before 3 days. just even for a couple years to get the numbers up a little more then go 1 week buck and 1 week both, not as many doe will be killed. also i think if they have to do this stupid AR, for the 4pt side of it, atleast make it fair and make it all 3 on a side. i dont get why its 4pt 1/3 of the state then the rest 3.

also not issue a billion doe tags like they do.

PA Hunting Stats
 

The Top States Issuing Hunting Lics.
1.) Pennsylvania
2.) Texas
3.) Michigan
4.) Wisconsin

Pennsylvania ranks 33rd. in the country with 44,817 sq. miles of land. West Virginia ranks 41st. with 24,078 sq. miles of land.

ARTICLE

Pgc is full of it
 

Funny thing is, even though pa has more tags than the other 3 states listed, we also have a smaller deer herd.

Wisconsin, Texas and Michigan all have MORE deer, even more than we had BEFORE reduction. Texas over 2 mil. Wisconsin at 1.8 mil. Michigan up there as well... All more than we EVER had. Now we have far fewer than we did previously. And we have many more tags than much larger states with much larger deer herds... Yeah...thats appropriate. lmao.:hit:

>WV is comparable in size to Pa, has higher deer densities for the most part in many areas and has Under three hundred thousand hunters.

Sorry corny WV is half half the size of PA. 46K square miles vs 24k square mile

As far as the number of hunters in WV nobody knows how many hunters there are in WV. There may be 300k licensed hunters but there are lots more total hunters than that.

Hunters 65 and older in WV don't need a license to hunt.
Hunters 15 and under in WV don't need a license to hunt.(think 15 is correct)
Hunters on their own land don't need to buy a license.
Hunters on their parents land don't need to buy a license.
Hunters on their kids land don;t need a to buy a license.


The hunting pressure in WV is probably on par with PA.

WV Gino

Thanks for clarifying the land mass comparison. Ive seen the square mileage for quite a few states and WV is one, but didnt remember the difference being that much. Though it in itself doesnt mean alot in regards to the debate. Being a bit greater than half in size doesnt equal out with less than one third the license sales not to mention other variables involved.

>"As far as the number of hunters in WV nobody knows how many hunters there are in WV. There may be 300k licensed hunters but there are lots more total hunters than that."

Same could be said of Pa. Mentored youth numbers are completely unknown. And with 900,000 license buyers + Pas huge population compared to wv's very meager population comparatively, id imagine those youth hunters numbers to be MUCH higher than the youth in WV. Also Pa has hunters who dont buy licenses because they hold lifetime licenses. You also arent considering the Farmers and appointed friends + family who "hunt" year round for crop damage and dont need a license either.

Point is West Virginia in no way shape or form compares hunter numberswise no matter how you look at it. Though I would bet more Pennsylvanians head for WV to hunt than the other way around.

>"The hunting pressure in WV is probably on par with PA."

Having hunted there for several years in the past, In areas its in the neighborhood, no doubt. OVerall, not as high an average density. Not with over half the land mass and less than one third the license sales. Also considering the huge population difference betweeen Pa & WV I dont buy it that non-license buyers make up much of the difference.

Also, deer densities spoken of in recent years have been spoken of in areas of northern wv at over 80 dpsm according to the link a little while back that Id posted while in discussion with you. Id say they NEED some reduction. Pa with the best ow deer densities for a wmu below 25 owdpsm (not overly impressive, yet probably inflated to boot) and some as low as 10 dpsm.....

The allocation makes even less sense when our goals are SUPPOSED to be stabilization and have been that stated goal for years now. Yet according to pgc annual reports deer density change charts, the majority of wmus have experienced significant decline during these last 4 -5 years....

Also consider lowest buck harvests in decades, also coming last few years only highlighting the decline.

Its also unfathomable how we sell more doe tags than states with so many more deer than us, and they are many... yet they too have "science" and "biologists" who seem to see things a bit differently. They dont put such a high price tag on excess stockpilings of trillium and hobblebush.:confused2:

There's that word again. I am seriously considering giving up spring gobbler hunting just because the sight of trillium makes me want to puke.:mad1:

I agree. Audubon & the econut clown crew covet that crap and demonize the deer for eating it so much that I almost wish some exotic blight would come from china and wipe it all the hell out.

Ive been to several areas within what is supposed to be the highest deer density areas of the state and the friggin hillsides are covered with the crap. Not sure how the hell much more they are expecting.

Wow. I spent the night cruising Wisconsin and Minnesota boards. It sounds like the folks in those states are going through the same thing we are going through here in Pennsylvania.:(

http://http://www.channel3000.com/ne...04/detail.html

For how many years now, have the fellas from other states listened to us b%tch and moan and told us to stop complaining about our deer mgt?......Not pointing any fingers at Wisconsin necessarily, but we told them all to be vigilant, as the same econut lobby is working in nearly every state to some degree to acomplish their goals. My condolences to WI hunters, as they appear to be the latest victims. Somewhere there must exist a happy medium between extreme wildlife and habitat diversity and good deer hunting....Hunter satisfaction just always seems to be the expendable factor in the equation. Of course, if you judge things by the maybe 100 happy, smiling hunters on the PGC trophy page each year, (as you well should, and if you don't SHAME on you), these are the golden ages and it's never been better. My family in southern 4D has hunted every day since the opener, with ZERO deer sightings...and this is on private land. Very few shots fired, and fewer deer killed in the area. Poaching seemed to be up this year, and they are blaming that, and a certain neighbor who likes to assemble a gang of guys to drive the whole damn ridge off in in-line season, property lines don't exist to him. Doesn't help when we try to reign in the doe kill there, and then his gng drops ten of them in October ML season.

There is a gang over on the gamelands by me driving it every single day so far. They just won't let the place alone until every single deer is shot. The owner of the place were I hunt kicked a guy off several years ago because he wouldn't stop until he killed every last doe that hung around there. Its hard to practice good deer management when you got pigs out there that need to kill every deer they see.

The last 20 years in PA WMU3D.
The forest health could not support the large doe herds of the 80's-90's. Clear cutting throughout 80-90s created black birch habitat. Deer ate everything on the ground and 5ft up the tree. Deer fencing came in 2004, AR 2003, concurrent seasons since 01. I am for the restrictions, and would like to return to the doe bonus only days, limit individual doe permits, and keep AR. I hated seeing 3pts, bbs, spikes, and 4pts slaughtered. Our children's grandchildren's, grandchildren may see improvements in the forest health but that will take selective harvesting, and deer fencing for the next 100 years.

Gotcha, Pats. There are places I'll kill a doe, and places I won't. I NEVER take more than one from the same area/ year, regardless of how many I may see. I'd love to see folks limited to one per WMU atleast. I have one area in 5A where I will usually take a doe...took one this year, next year who knows? I'll make that decision next year- after scouting, hunting, and observation. I wish more guys took that time and actually thought about it before pulling the trigger. If I hunted an area were I only saw a couple of deer all through archery, I would NOT be shooting a doe there in rifle. Period. I also think that lower deer numbers have more guys shooting fawns than ever before. They are hellbent on getting a deer, aren't seeing many to begin with, so they shoot the first one they see. Especially on public land.That practice sure as heck isn't letting them rebound any quicker.

According to the PGC, we have already seen significant increases in forest health in many areas. Check the annual wildlife reports. What we haven't seen is appreciable increases in herd health, some facets actually decreased in the wake of HR, and now we are seeing lowest buck harvests in decades with no sign of the PGC allowing herd increase in the foreseeable future.

I am an Ohio guy, is Sunday Hunting allowed in PA for deer.

Well PA I would like to say I am on your side. But I am not. And if you father has trouble counting points, then he may need better glasses or may just have to give it up. I know that's harsh but just the way it is. Sounds to me like you and your father are a meat hunters and just want to kill a deer. Nothing wrong with that either. Just buy an anterless tag and shoot a doe.
The fact is that bigger racked bucks are being harvested statewide and there are a lot more happy hunters. The 1 1/2 year old 'dumb' bucks that got shot every year prior to the AR have gotten a bit warier and therefore harder to find.

I defy anyone on this board, any other board, the PGC or the DCNR to take me to any uncut hardwood ridge in the Tioga State Forest and show me an oak seedling or sapling, or any other plant other than trillium, that has sprouted up anywhere where the sun isn't getting through since 2002. It just ain't happening. Where there's sun, there's lush growth. Where there isn't sun, which encompasses about 90% of the forest, there's nothing. Our herd needed to be reduced because of this, I realize that. But our herd didn't need to be cut back as far as it has been. The deer are getting the blame for 100+ years of poor forestry practices plain and simple.

Do you have some kind of a link to a survey or some info to back up that statement about hunter satisfaction? I'm real curious about that. As for killing big racked bucks, we've been killing big racked bucks in Tioga County for the last 30 years. That's nothing new.

Check out WMU3D Monroe and Pike Counties.
23 years hunting eastern pa....long gone are the days of seeing packs of 8 doe. I've seen immature buck, small yearling doe this season all daylong, and mature monsters 30 mins post shooting time. .
I know the booner bucks and mature does are there, but I also know that they are 100% nocturnal. Long gone are the heydays at Manzenedo, Hiawatha, Mt. Allen, Porters Lake, ect. ect. Back in the 80-90's, 100's of club members would line up roadside, and perform deer drives. Now ZERO!!!

Hunters numbers are way down, and the sorry few out there pack it in by 3:30pm.:confused:

I hunted Ressica, Five Mile Meadow Road, Pine Flats, Mink Pond and Bruce Lake during the 80s and 90s during opening week for quite a few years. I sure as he11 don't remember 100s of members driving deer. Not saying it didn't happen but it sure didn't happen in the areas that I hunted in.

shed hunter...no, sunday hunting for deer is not allowed

I won,t take a doe were I hunt my bucks. They are more useful to me alive. Like I said before, the bucks won't come through my area looking for them to breed if they are allready dead. Try to explain that to some people, its in one ear and out the other.

[quote=bronko22000;3519491]Well PA I would like to say I am on your side. But I am not. And if you father has trouble counting points, then he may need better glasses or may just have to give it up. I know that's harsh but just the way it is. Sounds to me like you and your father are a meat hunters and just want to kill a deer. Nothing wrong with that either. Just buy an anterless tag and shoot a doe.

First my dad doesnt need glasses and i think he gave up after all the 40 years he deer hunted, its sad he just likes to go out with me, and in rifle season usually you see deer running right? there not just gonna stop and let you count the points. its not easy. and another thing, you said just shoot a doe, another reason why the herd is down so much. its hard for guys to count points and dont wanna risk anything and just shoot does, and get multiple tags. with the two week combined..does are just getting slaughtered.

You can't fire on running does either...gotta scope the head for buttons, and more likely than not it's a small spike alone, or doe in pairs. AR made the game more challenging, safer, less brown it's downers, less shots on running deer, less fathers killing their own sons. What more could we want? I jumped a half racked something huge the other day. You know one jump, two jump, and poof gone. One less idiot peppering the woods with lead the better.

wait did you just call my dad an idiot? i didnt mean hauling the mail dumba$$, even if there just trotting its tough to count points. yea what more could we want, the AR made the game so much more challenging, it just made guys shoot more does, which in the long run, made the popluation plunge almost to nothing. and if you really did call my dad an idiot, FAH Q

You need to get your facts straight before making claims like that. It is illegal to hunt deer with more than 25 hunters in a group. Further, the clubs still make drives for deer and bear.
No, you do not have to check for buttons!!

In 2008 13 % of our 926K hunters harvested a buck and only 3% of those 926K hunters harvested a 2.5+buck that was the result of ARs. Since over half of those 2.5+ bucks had 7 points or less, only around 1.5% of PA hunters harvested a buck 2.5+ buck with 8 or more points in 2008.

Its really hard to feel sorry for these people when they don't see deer.

That is only true if you are a self centered ,selfish individual that has no concern for the future of hunting in PA.

If you are one of the few that believe the PGC propaganda, the PA hunters are harvesting all the deer that are available on a sustainable basis. Therefore, if those hunters that aren't seeing deer ,hunted harder and harvested more deer ,they would reduce the herd even more and we would have fewer successful hunters in the future. Is that what you want?

Amen Manyspurs, and in Potter County. Remember the days of the Potter Enterprise Big Buck Contest at Goodenough's? One time I entered a 10 point, 16" spread, with long tines just for kicks (3.5 year old), and it was a midget compared to the winner. It was taken from the southern part of the county where there were no farms.

A year later I passed on a questionable shot at a 10 pointer with a 20"+ spread. We spotted him at night before the season. They were there, you just had to find them. But if you wanted to take a smaller deer, the opportunity was there.