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Did ARs Really Produce bigger 2.5+ Buck?
How can you raise odds for one group at the expense of another group, when they are all hunting for bucks? Are we not all out in the same woods? Are you claiming that dink shooters will not shoot a nice buck when they see it? Would you? Not only has our group killed more buck since AR, but they are in fact BIGGER as well. That is MORE and BIGGER where I come from Protecting 50% of the 1.5 buck reduces the odds that the average hunter who is satisfied with a spike will see a legal buck, while increasing the odds that a rack hunter will see a buck that meets his standards. It's just that simple. |
I'm sure the truth and data is out there somewhere. But for me, I ran into more bucks that I would judge as being 2.5+ years of age before ARs were implemented. 2001 was one year that I'll never forget. Healthy, nice racked bucks everywhere.
Myself, I don't believe, from my observations, that a 2009 2.5 year old buck is any bigger or healthier than a 2.5 year old buck prior to AR. There may be slight exceptions either on plus side or minus side depending on variables such as previous winter conditions, food availability etc. But I don't think it's significant. |
Alt was a liar.I'll be the first one to admit it.However,he or no one else ever claimed the average size of 2.5 years old bucks would increase.
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I ain't got the time to dig it up right now. But he did say "healthier and bigger bucks and more of them". Whether or not he was talking about bigger and healthier 2.5 year old bucks is anybodies guess, but the main focus was moving more 1.5s into the 2.5 class. The more of them part was BS. And from the amount of body fat that I see on bucks that are harvested during rifle season, the healthier part was bogus to IMHO.
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The only way we could have "more and larger buck than ever before" is if the 2.5+ bucks produced by ARs would be larger than the 2.5+ buck pre-AR. Furthermore, the guys from KQDC are claiming their 2.5+ buck are bigger now than in 2002.
Alt also said ARs would double the number of 8 pt. buck and the only way that could happen is if more 2.5+ buck produced more points than 2.%+ buck priorr to ARs. |
That's pure nonsense.The guy said we'd have more and bigger bucks.That was a stupid comment because it's impossible to have more bucks when you plan to reduce the herd by 50%.He did not however claim we'd have bigger 2.5 year olds.That's a flat out lie bb and you know it.
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We shoot more bucks, and they are bigger (racked) than what we used to shoot.
Can't get any more plain than that. Sorry if this offends you. I don't claim to speak for everyone. |
Originally Posted by livbucks
(Post 3452536)
We shoot more bucks, and they are bigger (racked) than what we used to shoot.
Can't get any more plain than that. Sorry if this offends you. I don't claim to speak for everyone. |
2f .
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He did not however claim we'd have bigger 2.5 year olds.That's a flat out lie bb and you know it. Alt did not just say hunters would see more big buck than ever before, he said those bucks would also be bigger than ever before. That is a fact and the only way you can deny it is to lie. |
Originally Posted by livbucks
(Post 3452536)
We shoot more bucks, and they are bigger (racked) than what we used to shoot.
Can't get any more plain than that. Sorry if this offends you. I don't claim to speak for everyone. The fact that a small group of hunters are harvesting bigger buck than before ARs is not a big surprise. ARs prevent you from shooting the spikes and ys,so obviously the bucks you harvest will have larger racks. But, the question remains as to whether the average 2.5+ buck is larger or smaller than the average 2.5+ buck pre-ARs. |
Originally Posted by livbucks
(Post 3452551)
2f .
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Here is what Alt said.
Of all the things that could improve our deer breeding ecology and increase the size of bucks in the herd, nothing would do it as quickly and dramatically—and be ac- cepted by hunters—as changing our ant- ler restrictions. This was the message that Dr. Gary Alt, Pennsylvania Game Commission Deer Management Section supervisor, carried throughout the Commonwealth prior to antler restrictions being placed into effect for the 2002-03 license year. “Our traditional antler restriction before implementing the change in 2002 required bucks to have two or more points on one antler, or a spike three or more inches in length,” Alt said. “By increasing the number of points required to be legal, we will pro- tect a significant percentage of younger bucks by allowing them to live longer. This should increase the number of bucks living at least one more year and, in the long term, hunters will likely see more and larger bucks than they have ever seen before. |
This should increase the number of bucks living at least one more year and, in the long term, hunters will likely see more and larger bucks than they have ever seen before. |
Originally Posted by bluebird2
(Post 3452566)
No, you are the one that is lying, because it would be impossible to have, "Larger buck than ever seen before" if the size of the 2.5+ buck didn't increase due to ARs.
Alt did not just say hunters would see more big buck than ever before, he said those bucks would also be bigger than ever before. That is a fact and the only way you can deny it is to lie. |
We harvested 109,200 in 2007 and 122,000 in 2008. the interesting thing is the vast majority of that increase was due to the 10,000 additional 2.5+ buck that were harvested, rather than a large increase in 1.5 buck. Therefore, the harvest does not indicate the herd is increasing, it just shows that the 2007 was reduced due to the bad weather conditions the first two days.
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The fact that a small group of hunters are harvesting bigger buck than before ARs is not a big surprise. It really isn't an exclusive club. I will say that we almost always score on the second day, not the opener, since AR started. You figure THAT ONE out, because I can't. But I aint spending alot of time wondering either, if you get my drift. At home in 2B has not really changed since AR. It's hit or miss on small woodlots. too much human activity that alters deer movement, so it's a crap shoot. Big bucks? you bet. but they are nocturnal in nature at home. |
Here we go again with another classic Bluebird flimflam designed to confuse the issue.
I know of no one on this board who took ALts words (Ill chosen as the were) and interpereted iy to mean that ANY age class of bucks would get bigger be it 1.5, 2.5, 3.5, 4.5 or whatever. NO CLAIM WAS EVER MADE that 2.5 bucks would get bigger within their age class. The claim was that the average age would get older and therefore the average antler size would increase, because the AVERAGE BUCK would be OLDER. That has happened. |
Originally Posted by livbucks
(Post 3452616)
Why are we in that group (most) every year? Why are you not in that group at least sometimes? I can't figure that one out because we hunt public owned lands.
It really isn't an exclusive club. I will say that we almost always score on the second day, not the opener, since AR started. You figure THAT ONE out, because I can't. But I aint spending alot of time wondering either, if you get my drift. At home in 2B has not really changed since AR. It's hit or miss on small woodlots. too much human activity that alters deer movement, so it's a crap shoot. Big bucks? you bet. but they are nocturnal in nature at home. Thats the experience in my part of 2F as well Greg. |
As my Pappy says "the bucks are where you find 'em" LOL.
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NO CLAIM WAS EVER MADE that 2.5 bucks would get bigger within their age class It's the big rack that makes my heart go a flutter...not the fat ass. Hehe |
Why are we in that group (most) every year? Why are you not in that group at least sometimes? I can't figure that one out because we hunt public owned lands. At home in 2B has not really changed since AR. It's hit or miss on small woodlots. too much human activity that alters deer movement, so it's a crap shoot. Big bucks? you bet. but they are nocturnal in nature at hom |
Originally Posted by livbucks
(Post 3452642)
As my Pappy says "the bucks are where you find 'em" LOL.
We now have deer hunting season instead of deer shooting season. Some of the fainter of heart have quit. Others spend time at the puter whining about things instead of in the woods...... I kinda like it! |
I know of no one on this board who took ALts words (Ill chosen as the were) and interpereted iy to mean that ANY age class of bucks would get bigger be it 1.5, 2.5, 3.5, 4.5 or whatever. Why did Alt emphasize that the older superior buck would be doing the breeding? He said it to convince hunters that ARs would produce bigger 1.5,2.5 and 3.5+ buck. He also used the flawed computer models from Miss. to assure us that ARs wouldn't result in a decrease in the rack sizes of 2.5+ buck. |
Originally Posted by bluebird2
(Post 3452676)
Obviously you don't understand the English language ,which may explains why you don't understand the deer management plan. There is a difference between saying more and larger buck versus just saying more big buck, but I wouldn't expect you to understand since you are so ignorant that you think hunters only killed 20% of the doe that died in 2G each year.
Why did Alt emphasize that the older superior buck would be doing the breeding? He said it to convince hunters that ARs would produce bigger 1.5,2.5 and 3.5+ buck. He also used the flawed computer models from Miss. to assure us that ARs wouldn't result in a decrease in the rack sizes of 2.5+ buck. NO one here but you has been stupid enough to claim that Alt said that our 2.5 bucks would be bigger. Kinda speaks volumes as to who doesnt understand english! |
I understand the English language much better than yo, but just to make sure I was right I had an English teacher analyze the meaning of ," more and larger buck than ever before" and she agreed with me. So it is up to you to explain why the bucks Alt said we would see would be larger than ever before,since we always had 2.5+ buck in the harvest.
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"As my Pappy says "the bucks are where you find 'em" LOL"
If all of Pa's hunters could squeeze treestands into one area....the area made up of "few and far between" Theyd all kill big bucks because thats where they're at. lmao. |
Quote: Originally Posted by livbucks As my Pappy says "the bucks are where you find 'em" LOL. Truer words have never been spoken here |
Originally Posted by bluebird2
(Post 3452714)
I understand the English language much better than yo, but just to make sure I was right I had an English teacher analyze the meaning of ," more and larger buck than ever before" and she agreed with me. So it is up to you to explain why the bucks Alt said we would see would be larger than ever before,since we always had 2.5+ buck in the harvest.
Are you really that stupid? No one on this board has admitted to arriving at the same conclusion you did. No one. So Alt used the wrong grammar. So what? No one with two working brain cells would have been so foolish as to believe that the average size within the same age class would chnage simply because more were allowed to live that long. |
So Alt used the wrong grammar. So what? No one with two working brain cells would have been so foolish as to believe that the average size within the same age class would chnage simply because more were allowed to live that long. |
Originally Posted by bluebird2
(Post 3452850)
Alt did not use the wrong grammar as you claim. If he did the PGC would have corrected his grammar in the Hunting Digest which included that quote from 2002 to 2008. The basic reason for implementing ARs was to improve the genetics of the herd as a result of dominant breeding by superior 2.5+ buck. If that was not the case, then there was no reason to implement ARs other than to get hunters to shoot more doe.
And I'll say it again. NO ONE else drew the conclusion you did. Except for your "english teacher" (if she exists) LOL!! You dismiss the research of wildlife professionals like Kroll and ask your english teacher to help interperet a statement about deer management.... Priceless!! |
And I will say this once again. Only a buffoon like you would claim to know that no one drew the same conclusion that I drew from Alt's statement. Words have meaning and when they are printed in the Digest year after year it is not a grammatical error. It is a claim that is supported by the PGC.
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Originally Posted by bluebird2
(Post 3452870)
And I will say this once again. Only a buffoon like you would claim to know that no one drew the same conclusion that I drew from Alt's statement. Words have meaning and when they are printed in the Digest year after year it is not a grammatical error. It is a claim that is supported by the PGC.
Therein lies your problem. You dwell on the miniscule meaningless minutia of some technical point that makes zero practical sense. You had to consult an english teacher for cryin out loud! You know thats not what was meant or said. Once again its the old Bluebird twist at its finest. |
Lmao. Tell me you didnt just say "minutia". :D
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Originally Posted by Cornelius08
(Post 3452895)
Lmao. Tell me you didnt just say "minutia". :D
Whatsa matter? Too big a word for ya? |
Therein lies your problem. You dwell on the miniscule meaningless minutia of some technical point that makes zero practical sense. You had to consult an english teacher for cryin out loud! You know thats not what was meant or said. Once again its the old Bluebird twist at its finest. |
You cultured enough to say words like minutia?
'Cordin' to Pensyltucky game comision We hunters jus' be ignernt rednecks 'round 'ere. Yer 2 smart. You haint one dem greeny autobahn sob's r ya?:s12: Lmao.:D |
Originally Posted by bluebird2
(Post 3452907)
Wrong again. Alt lied when he said hunters would see more buck than ever before and he lied when he said those buck would be bigger than ever before and you are lying when you are denying that he said what he said and which the PGC repeated over again and which is still posted on the PGC website.
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Originally Posted by Cornelius08
(Post 3452917)
You cultured enough to say words like minutia?
'Cordin' to Pensyltucky game comision We hunters jus' be ignernt rednecks 'round 'ere. Yer 2 smart. You haint one dem greeny autobahn sob's r ya?:s12: Lmao.:D |
And , as I said before, that means you don't understand the English language ,even though you admitted Alt didn't use the proper grammar. BTW, how do you know whether Alt was lying or if he just lied in the first part of his statement and used improper grammar in the second part?
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