Actually ,you are standing out in the rain and are all wet. The PGC manages the herd and individual hunters can do nothing to prevent the PGC from accomplishing their goal since the majority of hunters let the PGC decide how many deer should be harvested.

In your case I'm quite sure you are right, with the condescending attitude and the close mindedness you show daily I'm betting your neighbors would certainly treasure an invite from the local Jo-Ho's to dinner than have a chat with you.:eek2:

"So I was wrong about nothing, I was correct in stating that a few a few vocal members of small % of malcontents will not ever have a say in how a democratic form of government sets directives to control how our society rules it populace."

Unless that small % of malcontents are the ones running the show. Then they do exactly as they please no matter how it effects the majority. No checks + no balances = bad business.

"And I am righter than rain about how like minded neighbors will have far more success in obtaining hunt able populations of deer within parameters that all can live with."

On a very limited and small scale, youd be right jim. Thats simply a pipedream when speaking of statewide or majority of the state. You simply arent gonna get "the weird guy" down the road who doesnt even talk to people + the guy who shoots every deer that walks + the guy that trophy only hunts + the farmer wanting less deer + the average joe + the guy with a poster on every tree, + the guy who owns 100 acres and allows anyone and everyone to hunt + old widow Smith who wont even answer the front door etc. etc. to sit down and manage the the deer herd statewide themselves nor should they be expected to. And as for hunters, the majority of the 900,000 arent landowners. And in most cases dont hunt "managed" land either. Only management most lands receive is that which is provided by pgc on gamelands and all private hunted land that isnt managed and as the case with stateforests, dcnr.

I have had a helluva lot more success talking to my neighbors than I've ever gotten from a politician.
As far as doe tags in 2F or 2G that number concerns me on the same level as the G.N.P. of Guatemala I have no desire to hunt either place.
A very limited small scale is all I can hope to be influential in when concerning deer numbers.

As a landowner, you have that option Jim. Id agree landowners should use their discretion and do whatever it takes if they are so inclined.

But that in no way minimizes the need for proper statewide management.

Some striking paralells seem to keep emerging here.....


Just as there are some who expect no one to make them a living, take care of their family, provide their healthcare and solve their lifes problems so are there deer hunters who make their own situation with their efforts and ingenuity. They blame no one but themselves for their failure and credit no one else with their successes.

And just as there are folks who expect the government to provide them with a living, healthcare and solve their lifes problems. They are even willing to give up some rights and quality of life to get that "help" And so are there deer hunters who believe the quality of their hunting is the job of the government. This group also is willing to give up some quality so long as the government provides for their right to a deer.

I think I prefer to make things happen rather than wait for them to happen


PS: Jim, if you DO ever get an urge to come over and hunt 2F, don't worry, we've got plenty of very good deer hunting over here.... of course, it's better for those of us who do our "homework" but I'll be happy to let ya "copy" a little:wave:

IMHO, you choose to only care about the quality of your own hunting and care nothing about the quality of hunting for your fellow hunters or for the future of deer hunting in PA. You apparently don't care how many hunters quit or if there will be enough hunters to control the herd in the future. Just like DougE and BWJ it is all about you and the rest of the hunters in the state can go watch the leaves fall.

Your complaints about your lack of success and your overall dissatifaction with your own deer hunting is well documented all over these threads. That is obviously your motivation. You've also stated that you shouldnt have to try a new place and that any extra effort on your part like scouting a bit is unneccessary. Your claim that some of us dont care about other hunters rings quite hollow.

You've said you want MSY management. Thats just plain greed. You have no consideration for the landowners or people who make their livng from that land. If you want to hunt land managed that way, buy some and have at it. But dont expect the PGC to manage the herd that way just to make a miniscule group of lazy hunters like you happy.

without getting into all that i gotta prove it so you all believe me crap, and i'm not going to get some lame paper stats that i can copy and past for everyones amazment, i will tell you plain and simple.
Yes without a doubt i'm seeing bigger bucks since AR was put into place here in NY state dmp 3j.

That simply is not true. I specifically stated landowners should have unlimited DMAP tags if they are suffering from deer damage, and they already had the option of killing deer for crop damage or getting reed tag permits.
Do you really want the statewide herd managed based on the desires of the non-hunting stakeholders? How many fatalities from deer collisions are acceptable? How much property damage from deer collisions is acceptable? If the herd is reduced to 5 DPSM on land open to hunting,there will still be a significant number of roadkills in areas that aren't open to hunting,so how much should we reduce the herd to avoid radkills?? If a truck farmer is suffering crop damage ,should the herd on adjoining properties be reduced until there is zero crop damage? If a landowner timbers 10 acres and the deer prevent regeneration,should the herd be reduced within a mile radius of those 10 acres to insure regeneration?

"Just as there are some who expect no one to make them a living, take care of their family, provide their healthcare and solve their lifes problems so are there deer hunters who make their own situation with their efforts and ingenuity."

More like the tiny minority of hunters who seem to think the reasons for herd management equate to a blank check as far as the deer herd is concerned.

"They blame no one but themselves for their failure and credit no one else with their successes."

Because if they arent effected at all by the deerless plan, they only have themselves to blame or credit for management. Thats fine, but that being the case they have absolutely no business arguing on issues that dont effect them, or that they know nothing about.

Guys like you who are happy "buying" their buck simpy wouldnt and couldnt understand.

LMFAOROTF!!

You really have no clue! Apparently your definition of buying a buck is when one expends effort towards improving his hunting.


Based on that, the only difference is that you obviously expect to sit back and have someone "buy" your buck for you:busted:

LOL

You just keep a rockin on the porch while the real hunters go out and earn their buck. Maybe a stupid one'll walk by in range.

I'll be a 'rockin' in that chair before bow season is over, because I'll be tagless like pretty much every other year.:rock:

Almost forgot, heres a little somethin' for ya to dream about till first day:

Neighbor kid beat ya up and take your tag again?:confused0024:

Whatsa matter? Price of lulu bell a bit high?....Wait till post-rut, I hear prices go down substantially.:poke:

:pcwhack: im lookin so hang on a sec

Here is more proof that Alt was claiming the 2.5+ buck would be bigger.

If he was just referring to the effects of bucks living one year longer due to ARs ,he wouldn't have said the bucks would likely be larger, "in the long term." Instead, the more and larger buck would be seen in the second year of ARs.

I think its pretty well established and common knowledge that Alt & Pgc are/were liars. Most of the few who support pgc here say right out that Alt was a liar. Funny thing is, Alt left, but not much else has changed, other than we have even fewer deer now, then when he left. Same bs. lies are being told.... So why would ANYONE support pgc???....Other than being close friends or family members of pgc staff etc. Only thing I can think of. Otherwise Its baffling.

Of course you've left out something very important.....CONTEXT

Gary Alt definitely overstepped his bounds with his speeches at times but in the meetings I attended, the "long term" was explained as uncharted territory. Alt flat out admitted that we wouldnt know all the long term effects till time showed us. He did talk about the possibilities for a buck who learned to survive one year being better able to survive past 2.5. The number of 3.5+ bucks has not changed as much as we all hoped and as much as Alt either believed or wanted us to believe. That does not translate to a claim that the average buck of any given age class would be bigger.

Thats how the "more and bigger bucks" was explained in the meetings I attended. No, it hasnt lived up to our highest hopes but I notice that you avoid the fact that that Alt said hundreds of times that this was uncharted territory and that mistakes would undoubtedly be made. Whats not a mistake is that there was never a promise that bucks of the same age class would be bigger after AR and that whole thing is nothing more than a lie and distortion.

As an example of mistakes Alt even cited some big mistakes that had already been made IE: the one year (around 2000/2001) that doe season opened on the last Saturday of the traditional "buck" season and resulted in more than doubling the traditional buck kill on that day.

Personally, I'm glad he's gone, but thats the CONTEXT of the "more and bigger bucks" statement in the meetings I attended

Yep, anyone with a different viewpoint is a liar or a PGC employee.

Have you ever told your shrink about these paranoid delusions?
No matter, you'd just yell liar liar at him too! LOL

"Yep, anyone with a different viewpoint is a liar"

No. You just dont like it pointed out when you lie.

"or a PGC employee."

No. I never said anyone with a different viewpoint was. I spoke of a PARTICULAR viewpoint on particular issue. I also didnt say anyone in particular was. Just trying to make sense where none exists.

"No matter, you'd just yell liar liar at him too! LOL "

No. I dont use the term loosely and just throw it around. I and others here usually reserve that for YOU since YOU are usually the one guilty of it.:busted:

"Personally, I'm glad he's gone,"

Why?

That was not a mistake and had no effect on the 2002 buck harvest . If ARs hadn't been implemented the 2002 buck harvest would have been over 200K just like in 2000 and 2001.


[QUOTE]Thats how the "more and bigger bucks" was explained in the meetings I attended. No, it hasnt lived up to our highest hopes but I notice that you avoid the fact that that Alt said hundreds of times that this was uncharted territory and that mistakes would undoubtedly be made. Whats not a mistake is that there was never a promise that bucks of the same age class would be bigger after AR and that whole thing is nothing more than a lie and distortion/QUOTE]

That is your very biased opinion based on your selective memory. The written word tells the real story and that is Alt claimed our 2.5+ buck would be bigger due to dominant breeding and an improved breeding ecology.

Yes you did say exactly that on this page!

[quote=bluebird2;3455800]That was not a mistake and had no effect on the 2002 buck harvest . If ARs hadn't been implemented the 2002 buck harvest would have been over 200K just like in 2000 and 2001.
[QUOTE] You may not think so but Gary Alt most definitely called that a mistake

Please provide a link to the "written word" where Alt says specifically that any bucks would increase in size within an age class. Not your 4th grade english teacher opinion, not your interperetation, but a specific claim.

It's put up or shut up time..................

"Yes you did say exactly that on this page!"

See, there you go, lying again. I did none of the such. I pondered the possibility of many of those who SUPPORT THE DEER PROGRAM DESPITE ALL THE FACTs. I even went as far as to ASK IT AS A QUESTION.

That doesnt equate to calling anyone who disagrees with me on any issue as pgc employee or family member. You are attempting to distort my statement to make it irrational, when all it does is rationalize about something that would make perfect sense in many cases. I also stated if that wasnt the case with some then im baffled.

you seem to have one helluva hard time interpreting written word. Im trying to be kind in that assessment because Id rather believe that the case than you once again trying to intentionally be deceptive.

I apologize. I am forgetting that third grade grammar is the average skill level in Greene County. I'll let it slide because you probably didnt do it on purpose.

Then I suggest that you shut up , instead of claiming 13 DPSM die from non-hunting mortality in 2G.

Tell me he didnt say something so ridiculous bb?? lol.

Pretty lame dodge, now where's that link?

"I apologize. I am forgetting that third grade grammar is the average skill level in Greene County. I'll let it slide because you probably didnt do it on purpose."

Which loosely translates as: I (btb) lied but tried to weasel out of it using humor and and insult.

No, it specifically translates to "you dont understand plain english"

Whoops! You're yelling again! Better take a chill pill! Or maybe a pull on that jug of Greene County Koolaid. LOL

Btw you didnt answer the question in regard to your statement about alt. You said:

"Personally, I'm glad he's gone,"

I asked: Why?

"No, it specifically translates to "you dont understand plain english"

Like I said, trying to take attention off yourself for making asnine claims as usual.

"Whoops! You're yelling again! Better take a chill pill! Or maybe a pull on that jug of Greene County Koolaid. LOL"

Bold isnt yelling. All caps is. I use the bold to separate my text from yours in quotes. Course you know that. Ive told you many many times. Yet you made the statement anyway. Know what thats called? Thats called a lie. And gee, it had nothing to do with you disagreeing with me on deer management and everything to do with the fact you dont discriminate, you lie about anything and everything. lmao.:busted:

Because he obviously didnt have the stomach to finish the job. If he wasnt up to it he never should have started. I really have no idea where deer management would be right now if he were here. No matter whether you agree or disagree in retrospect with what Alt did, he did seem to weild enough clout to get the PGC to move quickly and decisively. Something that was a new concept for the BOC then and seems to have faded away since he left. (except for the rush to include the xbow but that was an isolated lame duck travesty)

His stated reason for leaving was a cop out. He shot his credibility right then right there. He knew what he signed on for and he should have either not taken the job or he should have seen it through.

By now, you could have and should have learned to use the quote feature like everyone else. You're clever enough to screw up poll results so dont try to tell us you dont know how to use the quote feature. The bold type is simply your unique "in your face" way of being the loudmouth. You've been told about it by many. Your refusal to use common internet courtesy is obvious. Kind of like your juvenile liar liar routine.
You tend to do both when you have no real response or when you're painted into a corner.


Here it comes...... knock yourself out! I'm hitting the sheets. Yell all you want. Gnite

"By now, you could have and should have learned to use the quote feature like everyone else."

I do off and on. WHenever I so choose to do so.

"You're clever enough to screw up poll results so dont try to tell us you dont know how to use the quote feature"

Back to the ol' lying again eh? Still sore over getting caught voting mulitple times with multiple ids on polls? lmao. I think youd be the last guy to want to bring that up?:busted:.

"The bold type is simply your unique "in your face" way of being the loudmouth."

God forbid anyone take that title from YOU.

"You've been told about it by many."

Its been mentioned by one or two people three tops since Ive been a member, and it always started with you, and you being one of them. Kinda shows you what I think of your suggestions?:birthday:

"Your refusal to use common internet courtesy is obvious. Kind of like your juvenile liar liar routine."

No, your lying about 25 times in the last two threads you have been posting to is why your lies are pointed out. No other reason. Quit lying and i wont accuse you of it. It really is that simple. I see noone else crying about being told they lie constantly on here, just poor old misunderstood you i guess. I like how the biggest troll on these boards constantly cries victim.

Waa waa, the bad man is using a quote method i dont approve of... Waaa waaa, when i dont tell the truth he points it out.... waaaaa! Whats up with that?

"Here it comes...... knock yourself out! I'm hitting the sheets. Yell all you want. Gnite "

Gee, you lie and insult people etc etc. on every post then you predict a less than agreeable response? You must be a fortune teller, course a fortune teller would know I wouldnt need to yell when Im laughing at you! lmao.