Interview with Pa wmu 2A archery shop owner
 

From Herald Standard Article this morning.

Does antler restriction really work?
Kevin Polish Sr. at Kj's Pro Archery in Carmichaels not only asks the question, but also has to field queries on the subject from just about every customer who enters his shop these days.
"The reason I want to know did it really work is that, if it did work and we are going to have bigger deer, where are they," Polish said.
"Naturally we're going to have some bigger deer, but when these deer grow up, we're shooting them anyway- sometimes unlimited numbers of them.
"Once you take that gene pool out/ you take the strength of the herd out."
To make his point, Polish said that if you have a 4000 acre farm and you manage it for deer, all of a sudden this fall, you're going to have 12-18 15-20" deer on the property. If you harvest them, what going to be left?
He Continued saying that what youre going to hear is that if the doe were already bred the line will continue. That may be true, but youre going to have to wait another 5 years to get back to that point. Its a no-win battle.
With the start of archery deer season set to open Oct 3, many people tell me they arent seeing many deer.
Polish said that many Fayette county hunters who patronize the shop say that deer are scarce in the county. Especially the mountains.
He said "Ive only been back 4 to 6 weeks but everybody coming into the store is scratching their heads about the theory of our deer management program and asking, 'does this work?"
"Is the program working that they instituted five years ago? It is up in the air. Its a 50/50 game right now. Alot of the people are saying that worked three years ago, Now they are coming backsaying they dont have any big bucks on their farms. They shot them all!"
"This is what Im hearing. Im hearing that more than "there are big bucks out there".
"Im seeing the all the pictures. Everybody that comes in has a nice deer on a cell phone or trail cam, but what Im hearing right now is not what i was hearing 3 years ago."
Polish noted that many local hunters are frustrated by the local deer hunting and a group of about 20 are going to Illinois to hunt deer at the end of the month.
"Once again, more people are more apt to go out west to hunt deer because the big deer that used to be on their farm arent there anymore, he said."
Polish admitted that he was totally against the current deer management system 5 years ago and admits that eventually he did jump on board. Right now he is having mixed feelings about the states deer program.
"The hunters just arent seeing the big deer that they did in the past," he said. "Youre still hearing that there is a 160" deer here...or there.
"Dont get me wrong, there are bigger deer because the deer that made it are bigger now. There is no doubt abut it, but theres not as many big deer because they shot alot of deer off."
"A lot of these 13-16" deer have been harvested. The little ones cant be shot, so the bigger ones are not given enough time to really grow up. We're back to where we were five years ago."
"I travel to Indiana and illinois--Big powerful deer states. When you travel out there, there are miles and miles of cornfields. Thats where big deer are. They are not there because of the feed. The genetics are there, but how did the genetics get ther? The feed is there and everything.
Theyre trying to make Pa a "big buck" state, but I dont think it will ever happen. I dont care what they do; it doesnt matter."
Polish then pointed out that since crossbows are legal for use by everyone, that thier use, too, will have more of an affect on the deer herd.
"I think hunters using crossbows are going to take a bunch of b bucks out of the equation for the rifle hunter," Polish said. "Not because crossbows are better. There are just that many more people who want to bowhunt this year because they can use a crossbow.."
Are the guys buying as many antlerless deer licenses as in past years?
Polish said that nearly everyone that visits his shop these days asks, "wheres the deer"?
"Pennsylvania sold its deer herd," Polish said. The deer population has had everything against it. We had the deer disease, laws have changed and there are just way too many doe licenses being sold. It has to take its toll on the deer herd."
I, too, am concerned. As one who travels the roads at night, I see very few deer when traveling home anymore. When I do see 1 thats usually what i see-- one. I seldom see two or even three, and I dont remember the last time I saw a group of 5 or more.
Ive traveled the same roads for more than 40 years. It was 14 years before I spotted a deer on my nightly 10 mile trip home. Then one night I spotted my first deer and in time the sightings reached a point where sighting at least one deer nightly was almost a given.
Then like the stock market, the number of sightings plummeted. At least the stock market is showing signs of a come back.

Rod Schoener
(Herald standard outdoor columnist)

Now i dont agree with every single word said, and see a couple of mistakes such as exactly when the program began etc. but i think the opinions the bowshop owner has spoken of are for the most part accurate. People here are not happy. The bowshop is in wmu 2A Greene county and was speaking of fayette and Greene (local) hunters. A lot of hunters pass through that shop on a weekly basis and the sentiments seem to be exactly the same as those I hear and many which I see first hand.
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Notable quotes;

"The reason I want to know did it really work is that, if it did work and we are going to have bigger deer, where are they," Polish said."

"Polish said that many Fayette county hunters who patronize the shop say that deer are scarce in the county."

"He said "Ive only been back 4 to 6 weeks but everybody coming into the store is scratching their heads about the theory of our deer management program and asking, 'does this work?"

"Alot of the people are saying that worked three years ago, Now they are coming backsaying they dont have any big bucks on their farms."

""This is what Im hearing. Im hearing that more than "there are big bucks out there".

"Polish said that nearly everyone that visits his shop these days asks, "wheres the deer"?
"Pennsylvania sold its deer herd," Polish said. The deer population has had everything against it. We had the deer disease, laws have changed and there are just way too many doe licenses being sold. It has to take its toll on the deer herd."

"I, too, am concerned. As one who travels the roads at night, I see very few deer when traveling home anymore. When I do see 1 thats usually what i see-- one. I seldom see two or even three, and I dont remember the last time I saw a group of 5 or more."













"

To many hunters, to many doe tags, to much oppurtunity, to many predators. All hail the PGC.:hail:

Can you imagine how happy PA hunters would be if ARs had doubled the number of 2.5+ buck and doubled the number of 8 pts. as Alt predicted!! What do you think the PGC would be saying if 104K of the 122K buck harvested in 2008 were 2.5+ buck? The simple fact is that the PGC refuses to release any data on the rack sizes of 2.5+ buck shows that ARs did not come close to producing the predicted results.

Are you saying those promoting ARs were claiming that the size of a 2.5 yr old rack would be bigger with ARs? If so, isn't the size of the rack for a 2.5 yr old still the same 2.5 yr old rack post as well as pre AR?

Alt said hunters would likely see more and bigger buck than ever before due to ARs . For that to be true the 2.5+ buck would have to be bigger than before ARs. Unfortunately he was just blowing smoke and you are right that the bucks produced due to ARs wouldn't be any bigger than the 2.5+ buck before ARs.

First, I do believe that there are more and bigger bucks than before and that certainly does not imply that the 2.5 yr olds are bigger now than the 2.5 yr olds were before (they are still 2.5 yr olds).

Second I did not say that the bucks produced due to AR's would not be any bigger...I said that a 2.5 yr old buck before AR would not be any bigger than a 2.5 yr old buck after AR...again they are still 2.5 yr old bucks. In fact I believe the opposite of your incorrect interpretation of my statment, I believe that overall the bucks are bigger because they gain age, and probably more importantly, they become smarter.

we had very few deer at renovo hospital property clinton county do to hunters killing almost all deer off,they have to get meat.....

so we closed hunting last 2 years.i was over there last night and saw 5 bucks,8,6,4 3 ,spike.also 8 doe ,4 were fawns.this should say something why we dont have deer,just to much killing.

2 years ago it was about 2 or 3 deer you would see.

I identified this buck on my cam as the 1.5 year old that was constantly wandering underneath my tree last year during shooting hours. This year I am only picking up his movement on the cam after dark and did not see him in person yet. I think he is learning the best way to reach 3.5 is to go nocturnal.

The only way we could have more larger buck than ever before is if the size of the 2.5+ increased. If Alt wasn't claiming that the 2.5+ buck would be bigger than before ARs he would have said ,hunters would likely see more large buck than ever before, not more and larger buck than ever before.

BTW, the annual report for the KQDC indicates rack sizes of 2.5+ harvested has increased since ARs.
Before ARs some buck got bigger because they gained age just like with ARs, but very few live to become 3.5+ buck ,since we harvest 80% of the 2.5+ buck just like before ARs.

Alt predicted that by reducing the herd and balancing the b/d ratio would create as he put it in the video- "a more natural breeding ecology." A scenario where increased breeding competition lends toward larger deer (he presumed with better genetics) would win the majority of breeding rights, and contributing to an improving gene pool over the next few years. He was wrong, and recent studies don't even support his theory on older bucks doing all or even most of the breeding. They have found that nearly all age classes of bucks contribute evenly to breeding. Even in balanced b/d ratios. Read the newest issue of D&DH.

That makes sense, only so many big bucks on the mountain.

I support AR because it is the only thing saving any deer left in Pa. But Ar by itself will not produce numerous big bucks when the rest of the program has been taken so far off the course of common sense that we now face the option of managing land ourselves or going to another state to have an enjoyable and productive deer hunt.

That is interesting. At camp we talk about bucks not responding to the ususal enticemnts as thehave the does in theor harem close, no need to cover ground or go out of their way on the seek. We have a ton of does where we are at, a ton. But then again we are feeding supplements, plots and keeping we hope helath to ur herd. We also do not let seniors shoot young bucks, only juniors and we had an unspoken rack count that was acceptable prior to AR's we stuck with over the years.We would cull runts and deer we saw that were not growing in an acceptable manner according to the rest of the herd. We work on ourland year round so we see a lot of those bucks growing, know areas of habitation and see them on the cameras. Danged if we can get em' all the time the big boys seem to know where to go to stay alive. But every once in awhile we get smarter than them.

And with herd reduction, ESPECIALLY IN AREAS WHERE THE HERD HAS BEEN KNOCKED BACK TO SINGLE DIGITS PSFM AND 12-15DPSFM, my theory is that bucks spend TWICE the amount of time and energy finding receptive does, losing a good deal of weight, which brings them into the winter months with poor fat reserves. Part of the AR theory involved a better breeding ecology to bring bucks into the winter months in better shape thereby allowing more to survive.

4evrhtn

I agree completely. I would like to see what ar could do if the excessive hr didnt muffle it so much.

from what i am seeing ,you are right.only time i get good chance at buck lately is rut weeks or last 2 weeks of archery.heat and non rut these bigones just dont come out if they have pressure on them.so, i dont worry to much about hunting the buck until those last 2 weeks.i spend more time grouse/pheasant hunting until those weeks come then everyday i hit woods.

i like that way better than going out early in season, i can hunt grouse/pheasants,i dont get wore out as much hunting a buck all those weeks and more chance to see a bigone close then and not as difficult as early part of archery.i also am only one bass fishing early archery and i have ball catching some bass.

The archery shop owner is a very, very un educated deer hunter.
But I do agree with 4ever that if it wasnt for AR. hunting in PA. would be even worse. Pike

I agree pike. Having read this guys stuff several times in the past, including him supporting the program years ago, I think it is a combination of him not being intimately familiar with all the details of the deer program as many of us are, and also he isnt the best at getting his thoughts across in words during interviews.

Main reason I posted was to show the hunter dis-satisfaction with the program. Most are more than aware of this, but you always have that same "handful" of damage controllers who try to claim otherwise.

Used to shoot in a 3D league with that guy. To say uneducated is being very kind. Anyone citing this guy's words as a case against the deer plan aint gonna help his case.

The same applies to those that use the propaganda from QDMA to support ARs.

It's been awhile BB, and I will probably regret asking but what propaganda by QDMA do you mean?
QDMA stresses the importance of a deer's age structure over antler size. I have yet to see "propaganda" stated by QDMA that hasn't been proven. When you bastardize any piece of information no matter the source it will lose it's legitimacy. You can't pick and choose what parts you want to apply, AR without responsible buck to doe population management or food and mineral sources or genetics and age structure will never create trophy deer. QDMA is by far the most respected and legitimate organization dedicated to scientific whitetail deer management we have today. What is your issue with them?

only thing that gets you is when you go to a QDMA meeting and they talk about seeing 7 dead deer in 1 area do to eating corn we put in feeder.

first its hard to find 7 at 1 feeder,most i have seen is 6:hit:.then i asked, DO YOU HAVE PICTURES OF 7 DEAD DEER.NO

DID YOU CONTACT THE LOCAL WCO IN CAMERON/ELK COUNTY,NO:eek2:

"Used to shoot in a 3D league with that guy."

Lmao...Sure ya did! LMAO.

"To say uneducated is being very kind. Anyone citing this guy's words as a case against the deer plan aint gonna help his case."

Guess he was too dumb to point out that everyone coming in the shop are very unhappy, when most already know its a fact anyway? Notice the parts I quoted.

" The reason I want to know did it really work is that, if it did work and we are going to have bigger deer, where are they," Polish said."

"Polish said that many Fayette county hunters who patronize the shop say that deer are scarce in the county."

"He said "Ive only been back 4 to 6 weeks but everybody coming into the store is scratching their heads about the theory of our deer management program and asking, 'does this work?"

"Alot of the people are saying that worked three years ago, Now they are coming backsaying they dont have any big bucks on their farms."

""This is what Im hearing. Im hearing that more than "there are big bucks out there".

"Polish said that nearly everyone that visits his shop these days asks, "wheres the deer"?
"Pennsylvania sold its deer herd," Polish said. The deer population has had everything against it. We had the deer disease, laws have changed and there are just way too many doe licenses being sold. It has to take its toll on the deer herd."

Gee, we need Einstein to corroborate those claims dont we? lmao. Pretty much common knowledge and what is going on pretty much anywhere you go in Pa these days. Btw, thats why the post was made, not to show how the bow shop guy could "dissect" the data of the failed deer management plan which he didnt even attempt to do. But on the other hand we've already accomplished that. And just as with the low hunter satisfaction it = complete and miserable failure for the deerless program.

Btw, the WRITER fo the article the outdoor columnist also isnt for the failed program and says so regularly. In this article said this: "I, too, am concerned. As one who travels the roads at night, I see very few deer when traveling home anymore. When I do see 1 thats usually what i see-- one. I seldom see two or even three, and I dont remember the last time I saw a group of 5 or more."

Guess he is just "uneducated" too? Just like several hundred thousand hunters who dont buy into the garbage either?

Last year I stopped in to a small pro shop in Cambria county called Lecorchik's or something like that.A poster on another board that cries louder than anyone, claimed to be buddy's with the guy so I had to stop.He seemed like a super nice guy,had a huge full body mount of an awesome deer that he shot a several years ago so it was interesting to talk with him.He didn't cry like a kindygardner like this other guy but he definately seemed less than impressed with his own local deer hunting adventures.He told me he only passed 18 or 21(it was one of those two) differerent bucks that year and didn't have any real big shooters in range.Now I'm not saying this guy was a whiner.He seemed like a nice guy and a great hunter,no doubt.However,when you pass that many bucks in a season,you don't have it too awefully bad.

Id hardly think that scenario likely reaslistically the case with the majority (or for that matter ANY) of thsoe going into the archery shop spoken of in the initial post i made, or much of anyone anywhere else where hunters are complaining.

IMHO QDMA are hypocrites for supporting a 50% reduction in the statewide herd ,while doing everything possible to protect their lease holders from the effects of HR. Furthermore,if any one believes QDM members spend all that money on food plots, leases and supplemental feeding just to improve the health of the herd , they are not dealing with reality. The fact is that the main goal of QDM is to produce more bucks with bigger racks and in order to accomplish that they have to do whatever they can to improve the habitat and the health of the herd.

If you want to see what happens when QDMA principles are applied to an area without food plots, unlimited hunter access and no supplemental feeding ,read the KQDC 200(9 annual report and see how much the herd and harvests and how little it accomplished in improving the habitat or the quality of the deer.

BTB,

I got to call you on that comment about Kevin Polish. I DO know Kevin personally.

The guy knows his sh*t about deer and hunting. Hunted with some of his buddies back in the early 90's for turkey.

I hunt 2A and have been to his shop many times. His boy was parralized from a treestand accident several years ago and has also pretty much taken over the shop.

Kevin is one heck of a nice guy. Knows his stuff about bows too.

Was the top seller of Matthews bows in the country a few years ago but has since had a falling out with them and won't carry their bows.

The guy has taken many large bucks in Greene CO. way before AR's. Always passes up bucks others wouldn't think twice about shooting. Done it for years. Even been known to put less experienced hunters in his stands for them.

He was on a video kick for a while filming his and other's hunts.

All in all, the guy knows his stuff. Hunting from 2A myself I know some of the area he hunts. He is well known in these parts. Everyone knows Kevin's when you talk archery down here.

WW, I dont know what to tell you. I have no reason to doubt your opinion. It was quite a while ago that we were in the same league and I cant say I knew him as well as you seem to but the Kevin I remember sounded just like the guy who was interviewed.
As I say it was a long time ago but nothing in that article told me that much has changed.

There's another thing I wanted to add about hunting in 2A.

We have a 4pt restriction in this area. We do see many small bucks.

What we see here that seems odd is there are so many small bucks compared to large bucks.

I know that I personally expect to see more big bucks each year because of all the small/younger bucks I've seen the previous year. Yet it doesn't happen. I don't see more bigger bucks.


I do see some impressive six points, though. But they're not legal here.

I guess I keep expecting to see all those little spikes and fork horns to get bigger the next year but I don't see it happening.

Oh, Greene Co. does have some nice bucks, don't get me wrong. It's just that with all tose small/ young bucks that get to live another year, I expect to see more big bucks the following year, but it doesn't happen.

I'm thinking that bucks that have a 7-8point rack at 1 1/2 get shot while the fours and sixes get another year. We are taking bucks with the better genes out of the pool. After several years of this, the bucks get high graded.

I think we are just now seeing the results of high grading here in 2A. I believe others that hunt this area are seeing it like I do.

Apparently so after Kevins comments.

And yes, he was all for the AR's several years ago.

Kevin comes across as a joker. Always laughing and kinda clowning around.

Just listening to his voice and how he talks, he seems like some redneck without a clue.

When it comes to bows, archery and big bucks he knows what he is talking about.

I did see some video several years ago, he was showing in his shop of deer he was passing up. This was back in early to mid 90's. Really nice bucks he let walk away. Guys in the shop were just shaking there head. He'd just laugh and say he knew of bigger ones he wanted to get. He'd usually end up with an impressive buck by season's end.

The guy is pretty much famous in these parts, hence the interview.

Maybe that's part of what I saw. If it was all an act, he did it VERY well. This was the early 90's. I'll also say that back then, some of the (admittedly secondhand) archery "knowledge" that came out of that store was pretty bad. To be fair though, since most of it was secondhand, it may not have been the owner passing out all the bad advice. To be as fair and honest as possible, the perception within the league that consisted of more than 400 shooters was not exactly a good one at the time. It was admittedly a long time ago but the interview sure didn't show much difference between then and now.

"I know that I personally expect to see more big bucks each year because of all the small/younger bucks I've seen the previous year. Yet it doesn't happen. I don't see more bigger bucks."

I agree 100% windwalker.


What you have said about Kevin also is pretty much is exactly in line with those I know that know him. I believe hes been in business in Carmichaels, plus his old shop previously for more than 20-25 years. In that same time Ive seen several bowshops in the general area go under. So much for the "bad advice". I also have heard he hunts in several states at least some years.

Not sure what your problem is with the guy btb, dont know what your one personal experience was that you mentioned. But you keep referring to the article. Could you point out exactly what makes the guy an idiot, as shown in the article? I see where one or two small mistakes were made, which is only understandable if he isnt following every issue as we do on the "net". But like i said, I posted because it shows not only HIS view on the issue of dissatisfaction with deer plan, but most coming in his shop, as well as the author of the piece himself... Is he an idiot just because you want to try to discredit him no matter what, just because his view differs from your own? It simply appears that you attack ANYONE and EVERYONE that doesnt share your view of the failed deer program.

Again, Im not saying he is or he isnt an idiot as you claim., although Windwalker and many around this area seem to think "he isnt". But what Im saying is that, for the purpose of my posting the article in the first place which was low hunter satisfaction, it doesnt really matter. He also wasnt stating anything in that regard that about 90% of hunters here didnt already know.

The mistakes made by Kevin in that article are nothing compared to the lies Alt told while selling the plan.

LMAO! Found this on the net while perusing some old "Dr." Alt archives. lol.

I guess someone actually posted this sign at public hunting area. I think it was black Moshannon if i remember the statement with the pic.

Aw, how cute Gary. Hey...Wait a minute..Is this fawns face turning blue?

Me too. But after seeing the results, I know darned well that we had healthier bucks prior to AR, with bigger antlers and more body fat going into the winter. And there was alot more of them to boot. Ya just had to hold out to see them.:deer:

And it's eyes are bulging!

Maybe that pic was taken at a pgc training session. Dr. Death teaching new recruits how to dispatch orphan fawns without the clubs! lol.

The money they save on clubs can then be spent on a few hundred more "deer are bad because deer eat trees" pamphlets to pass out at their monthly audubon society meetings.

So on the subject of high grading....this great buck was taken in Pa last year on a managed property and weighed 315 pounds. It was at least 3.5 years old and had a spread of only 12 inches. Do you think this 315 pound buck was a genetic defect that made it past 3.5 years of age? Do you think this deer reached its full potential? I think so on both counts. Would you want this deer to be doing the breeding in your herd? What say you?