Cornelius08

From Herald Standard Article this morning.

Does antler restriction really work?
Kevin Polish Sr. at Kj's Pro Archery in Carmichaels not only asks the question, but also has to field queries on the subject from just about every customer who enters his shop these days.
"The reason I want to know did it really work is that, if it did work and we are going to have bigger deer, where are they," Polish said.
"Naturally we're going to have some bigger deer, but when these deer grow up, we're shooting them anyway- sometimes unlimited numbers of them.
"Once you take that gene pool out/ you take the strength of the herd out."
To make his point, Polish said that if you have a 4000 acre farm and you manage it for deer, all of a sudden this fall, you're going to have 12-18 15-20" deer on the property. If you harvest them, what going to be left?
He Continued saying that what youre going to hear is that if the doe were already bred the line will continue. That may be true, but youre going to have to wait another 5 years to get back to that point. Its a no-win battle.
With the start of archery deer season set to open Oct 3, many people tell me they arent seeing many deer.
Polish said that many Fayette county hunters who patronize the shop say that deer are scarce in the county. Especially the mountains.
He said "Ive only been back 4 to 6 weeks but everybody coming into the store is scratching their heads about the theory of our deer management program and asking, 'does this work?"
"Is the program working that they instituted five years ago? It is up in the air. Its a 50/50 game right now. Alot of the people are saying that worked three years ago, Now they are coming backsaying they dont have any big bucks on their farms. They shot them all!"
"This is what Im hearing. Im hearing that more than "there are big bucks out there".
"Im seeing the all the pictures. Everybody that comes in has a nice deer on a cell phone or trail cam, but what Im hearing right now is not what i was hearing 3 years ago."
Polish noted that many local hunters are frustrated by the local deer hunting and a group of about 20 are going to Illinois to hunt deer at the end of the month.
"Once again, more people are more apt to go out west to hunt deer because the big deer that used to be on their farm arent there anymore, he said."
Polish admitted that he was totally against the current deer management system 5 years ago and admits that eventually he did jump on board. Right now he is having mixed feelings about the states deer program.
"The hunters just arent seeing the big deer that they did in the past," he said. "Youre still hearing that there is a 160" deer here...or there.
"Dont get me wrong, there are bigger deer because the deer that made it are bigger now. There is no doubt abut it, but theres not as many big deer because they shot alot of deer off."
"A lot of these 13-16" deer have been harvested. The little ones cant be shot, so the bigger ones are not given enough time to really grow up. We're back to where we were five years ago."
"I travel to Indiana and illinois--Big powerful deer states. When you travel out there, there are miles and miles of cornfields. Thats where big deer are. They are not there because of the feed. The genetics are there, but how did the genetics get ther? The feed is there and everything.
Theyre trying to make Pa a "big buck" state, but I dont think it will ever happen. I dont care what they do; it doesnt matter."
Polish then pointed out that since crossbows are legal for use by everyone, that thier use, too, will have more of an affect on the deer herd.
"I think hunters using crossbows are going to take a bunch of b bucks out of the equation for the rifle hunter," Polish said. "Not because crossbows are better. There are just that many more people who want to bowhunt this year because they can use a crossbow.."
Are the guys buying as many antlerless deer licenses as in past years?
Polish said that nearly everyone that visits his shop these days asks, "wheres the deer"?
"Pennsylvania sold its deer herd," Polish said. The deer population has had everything against it. We had the deer disease, laws have changed and there are just way too many doe licenses being sold. It has to take its toll on the deer herd."
I, too, am concerned. As one who travels the roads at night, I see very few deer when traveling home anymore. When I do see 1 thats usually what i see-- one. I seldom see two or even three, and I dont remember the last time I saw a group of 5 or more.
Ive traveled the same roads for more than 40 years. It was 14 years before I spotted a deer on my nightly 10 mile trip home. Then one night I spotted my first deer and in time the sightings reached a point where sighting at least one deer nightly was almost a given.
Then like the stock market, the number of sightings plummeted. At least the stock market is showing signs of a come back.

Rod Schoener
(Herald standard outdoor columnist)

Cornelius08

Now i dont agree with every single word said, and see a couple of mistakes such as exactly when the program began etc. but i think the opinions the bowshop owner has spoken of are for the most part accurate. People here are not happy. The bowshop is in wmu 2A Greene county and was speaking of fayette and Greene (local) hunters. A lot of hunters pass through that shop on a weekly basis and the sentiments seem to be exactly the same as those I hear and many which I see first hand.
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Notable quotes;

"The reason I want to know did it really work is that, if it did work and we are going to have bigger deer, where are they," Polish said."

"Polish said that many Fayette county hunters who patronize the shop say that deer are scarce in the county."

"He said "Ive only been back 4 to 6 weeks but everybody coming into the store is scratching their heads about the theory of our deer management program and asking, 'does this work?"

"Alot of the people are saying that worked three years ago, Now they are coming backsaying they dont have any big bucks on their farms."

""This is what Im hearing. Im hearing that more than "there are big bucks out there".

"Polish said that nearly everyone that visits his shop these days asks, "wheres the deer"?
"Pennsylvania sold its deer herd," Polish said. The deer population has had everything against it. We had the deer disease, laws have changed and there are just way too many doe licenses being sold. It has to take its toll on the deer herd."

"I, too, am concerned. As one who travels the roads at night, I see very few deer when traveling home anymore. When I do see 1 thats usually what i see-- one. I seldom see two or even three, and I dont remember the last time I saw a group of 5 or more."













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ManySpurs

To many hunters, to many doe tags, to much oppurtunity, to many predators. All hail the PGC.

bluebird2

Can you imagine how happy PA hunters would be if ARs had doubled the number of 2.5+ buck and doubled the number of 8 pts. as Alt predicted!! What do you think the PGC would be saying if 104K of the 122K buck harvested in 2008 were 2.5+ buck? The simple fact is that the PGC refuses to release any data on the rack sizes of 2.5+ buck shows that ARs did not come close to producing the predicted results.

gnhuntn

Are you saying those promoting ARs were claiming that the size of a 2.5 yr old rack would be bigger with ARs? If so, isn't the size of the rack for a 2.5 yr old still the same 2.5 yr old rack post as well as pre AR?

bluebird2

Alt said hunters would likely see more and bigger buck than ever before due to ARs . For that to be true the 2.5+ buck would have to be bigger than before ARs. Unfortunately he was just blowing smoke and you are right that the bucks produced due to ARs wouldn't be any bigger than the 2.5+ buck before ARs.

gnhuntn

First, I do believe that there are more and bigger bucks than before and that certainly does not imply that the 2.5 yr olds are bigger now than the 2.5 yr olds were before (they are still 2.5 yr olds).

Second I did not say that the bucks produced due to AR's would not be any bigger...I said that a 2.5 yr old buck before AR would not be any bigger than a 2.5 yr old buck after AR...again they are still 2.5 yr old bucks. In fact I believe the opposite of your incorrect interpretation of my statment, I believe that overall the bucks are bigger because they gain age, and probably more importantly, they become smarter.

sproulman

we had very few deer at renovo hospital property clinton county do to hunters killing almost all deer off,they have to get meat.....

so we closed hunting last 2 years.i was over there last night and saw 5 bucks,8,6,4 3 ,spike.also 8 doe ,4 were fawns.this should say something why we dont have deer,just to much killing.

2 years ago it was about 2 or 3 deer you would see.

pats102862

I identified this buck on my cam as the 1.5 year old that was constantly wandering underneath my tree last year during shooting hours. This year I am only picking up his movement on the cam after dark and did not see him in person yet. I think he is learning the best way to reach 3.5 is to go nocturnal.

bluebird2

The only way we could have more larger buck than ever before is if the size of the 2.5+ increased. If Alt wasn't claiming that the 2.5+ buck would be bigger than before ARs he would have said ,hunters would likely see more large buck than ever before, not more and larger buck than ever before.

BTW, the annual report for the KQDC indicates rack sizes of 2.5+ harvested has increased since ARs.
Before ARs some buck got bigger because they gained age just like with ARs, but very few live to become 3.5+ buck ,since we harvest 80% of the 2.5+ buck just like before ARs.