We all watch those hunting shows on TV.

We all see those guys hunting down south on those well managed ranches in Texas. They see lots of bucks per day.

Many times the hunts we watch are to cull deer.

The funny thing is, we do the opposite of the ranchers in Texas. In Texas, they manage their deer herd for the best genetics. They cull the bucks with inferior genetics.

What do we consider a cull deer here in PA? That's right, we allow the bucks with inferior genetics to live and shoot the bucks that have the proper points per side.

We do it backwards here in PA.

If you have two bucks that are born at the same time here in PA, and one developes a four point rack his first year and the other developes an 8 point rack his first year, guess who gets shot?

If we repeat this scenerio over many years, what happens?

I do realize that there is more to antler developement than just genetics. But I also realize that if a buck developes an 8 point rack his first year and another buck only developes a 4 point rack and they live the same place, eat the same food, and are the same age, that the 8 point probably has better genes.


Just imagine if the PGC reversed the Antler Restrictions. Every buck with 3 or more points on a side were protected and only bucks with fewer points were fair game.

What would things be like here in PA then?

Wouldn't the health of the herd be better and genetics be better if the above scenerio were implemented?

The sad part is the PGC ignored the harvest data from Miss. which showed rack sizes decreased, and relied on their computer models to justify ARs in PA. Actually the only reason Alt pushed for ARs was to get hunters to shoot more does, since the PGC didn't get the harvests they wanted in 2000 and 2001.

First, holy crap that is a big bodied deer. I shot an 11 pointer last year that weighed 225 field dressed. This one here makes him look small. I believe he didn't possess the genetics needed to turn him into a booner- genetic deficiency not necessarily defect. I believe he would have retained this same rack without any other mentionable points until he passed his prime but he probably would have increased mass slightly but not enough to justify keeping him alive eating up all the other deer's food.
I work as a personal trainer at Gold's and that is the only reason I know this tidbit.. 3500 calories equates to one pound of body weight. This deer has had more than his share of the good life. Does the private land owner have pics of this buck from previous years? It is hard to age him because of the body size. He doesn't appear to be past his prime hence I would argue if someone said he was a 6 1/2 yr old on the downslide. His body is just too big and he seems to be very healthy. If I must age him I'd saymost likely 4 1/2 but no more than 5 1/2. The only way he'd be left to breed is if I was selling venison for a living.

gary alt wanted us to shoot OLD doe.his reason was we found out later was that OLD doe are ones that have fawns or are better able to have 2 fawns .he made it look like he was trying to let younger doe live to grow old,that he lied and was not telling us truth on his reason for saying that.

we have yet to find any bucks over 4 and 1/2 years old on sfl.most are 2 and 1/2 old

Good point sproulman. Pgc HEAVILY emphasized shooting mature doe. Used the excuse so we wouldnt shoot button bucks accidentally, when all along it is because mature doe are more successful at raising fawns and much more likely to have 2 or even 3 fawns.

Id guess that to be part of the reason our reproduction data has steadily declined for years now right along with the herd reduction, instead of the promised increase.

Wow, I just remembered that??? And we pound our guys about that as well, don't shoot the buttons shoot mature does. This is mostly for the young kids starting out. H-m-m-m, Corny and Sproul thanks. I will change the rule at my camp this year.

this year i have deer as i did not allow doe hunting .the older doe that are 2 and 1/2 years old have 2 fawns with them.the doe that look like they are 1 and 1/2 old say up to 2 years have no fawns with them.i have 4 bucks and 8 doe on my property and 3 are fawns.

Can I ask a question? Why is it the PGC fault? We all have choices. Just because the have the doe tags available doesn't mean we have to shoot them off. Our hunting camp of 12 guys all buy an extra bonus tag. But we all donate that tag to the deer and let them walk. I guess my point is that if your not seeing the deer thats the hunters fault. 5 years ago our deer herd was thinned out. So we had a camp meeting and made some rules and eating the bonus tag was one of them. And the herd has came back 5 x better then 5 years ago. Matter of fact this year we have to take a couple more doe than usual.

As for the Antler Restr. its working alot more older bucks. I am a bow hunter mostly where the deer move because of the rut. But in rifle hunters have to move them and its not really happening anymore. IMO - Why people aren't moving the deer because of less and less of public hunting land is available to hunt. People are buying or leasing land and are sitting and not driving.

I could go on and on.....

Bucks dont usually hit prime until age 5....

"Can I ask a question? Why is it the PGC fault?"

Because they are paid MANY millions of dollars each and every year to manage the resource.

"We all have choices. Just because the have the doe tags available doesn't mean we have to shoot them off."

You know that. I know that. Try organizing 900,000 hunters, many of which have no interest in anything other than going out and huntin' or filling the freezer, and dont delve into the "management" aspects. Id say they are most likely the majority.

"As for the Antler Restr. its working alot more older bucks."

In you area maybe. It certainly isnt working here. Dont have more and bigger buck when our herd was cut in half....and it shows. I do support ar, but not the extent of the excessive ridiculous hr.

"I am a bow hunter mostly where the deer move because of the rut."

Same for me, i bowhunt. I dont rifle hunt at all.

"But in rifle hunters have to move them and its not really happening anymore. IMO - Why people aren't moving the deer because of less and less of public hunting land is available to hunt. People are buying or leasing land and are sitting and not driving."

Or you can simply look at the pgc data and see that the herd was significantly cut, and that was the goal. This easily explains why there are so many fewer deer, and no excuses or other explanation is needed. There is MORE public hunting land NOW in Pa than there was 20 years ago not less. MORE gamelands have been bought, farm/game co-op lands etc. People arent driving deer any less or walking any less than previously. Somewhat more are buying land and leasing thanks to pgc making that the only option to have good hunting assured. Though they are still a minority in this state. Only different between now and the year 2000 is several hundred thousand less deer.

Good points! Well I feel bad for the counties that are feeling that effects...

How do you make it right in those counties that are feeling those effects?

in clinton county we are not seeing more bucks but ones we do see are bigger horns.we used to see 3 bucks a drive in good area,now about 1 in good area for about lets say 100 hunters.
most of hunters i see dont seem to care if 1 doe is left in a area.the worst are the out of town hunters or 1 week at camp hunters.sadly some of these hunters already got 1 or 2 doe in another county and are here to get more:hit:.

this is not all of above,some dont shoot a doe at camp.biggest liers are ones locally i know that say,SPROUL I DONT KILL A DOE I BOUGHT 3 DOE TAGS BECAUSE I BELIEVE IN SAVING A DOE.yes, there are hunters that buy a doe tag and not use it but MOST fib.they have to FILL FREEZER at all cost.

so,if i stop a gang of doe hunters like i did last year.i said, GUYS WE HAVE 3 DOE LEFT IN THIS AREA COULD YOU PASS ON DOE.1 young kid said, I GO TO HARRISBURG COLLEGE AND I SAW HERDS OF DOE IN HERE SPROUL.HIS EYEGLASSES WERE AS THICK AS MINE,LOOKED LIKE BOTTOM OF COKE BOTTLE, MINE TOO.his grandfather said, SPROUL HE IS A HECK OF HUNTER.:rolleyes:

with this type of FIBBING no way we will ever be able to manage sfl.they did not want to hear the FACTS from me.they said, OUT OF WAY SPROUL,YO HO, YO HO,YO HO:hit:

By tweaking the program as promised in the hardest hit WMUs. He11, in the hardest hit WMU in the state, which is 2G, we don't even have a CAC commitee yet!

"How do you make it right in those counties that are feeling those effects?"

That problem has a very simple solution. Cut the doe allocation.

More doe birthing more bucks to be saved by antler restrictions in the first place would = more and bigger buck than currently is the case with ar and far less than necessary/ half (or less in some areas) the deer numbers.

"By tweaking the program as promised in the hardest hit WMUs."

It needs tweaked everywhere. The carry capacity of the habitat isnt the same in the southwest as it is in the northwest and the southeast isnt the same as north central....etc. Some cases not even close. Though pretty much ALL of them are FAR below cc. for no good reason. Only units that any possible argument for fewer deer even exists at all is in sras where human conflict is the claimed issue.

" He11, in the hardest hit WMU in the state, which is 2G, we don't even have a CAC commitee yet!"

Consider yourself lucky. Those I have followed have been a complete travesty and joke. Some very well known Pgc insiders have taken part on cacs and attempt is made to greatly limit hunter involvement yet many antideer factions are encouraged and sought out to attend. The very design of the cac itself is made to = no increase. No matter how many attend, if only TWO disagree = no increase to deer density. PERIOD. If 5 or 50 want MORE deer doesnt make a damn bit of diff. if two econuts want less or one farmer + one forester.. whatever.. and 20 others representing hunters, landowners, business owners etc. want more... At best, you are getting "stabilization". And stabilization = more reduction according to pgc data of "stabilized" units thusfar. SHould be MAJORITY RULE PERIOD.


Cac's are a complete joke, consider yourself lucky it hasnt happened in your neck of the woods, as its an insult to our intelligence and provides deceptive b.s. grounds for herd increase prevention. And if there is any justice (which currently there isnt) this sham will be either 100% done away with or reconfigured.

i attended 1 of those meetings.president of sportsmans club said to group,I FILL MY FREEZER EVERY YEAR AND HAVE NO TROUBLE DOING IT IN WMU2G CLINTON COUNTY.

then 1 hr later a hunter said to him, I BOUGHT MY GUN AND SPENT A LOT OF MONEY TO DEER HUNT, I WOULD AT LEAST LIKE TO SEE SOME DEER AND GET A DEER.

here comes big one from the president of club.YOU DONT HAVE TO KILL A DEER TO ENJOY WOODS..................

as paul harvey used to say, GOOD DAY!

Well, our c.a.c had you guys beat you there sproulman. We had GALTHATFISHES from hunting pa/pgc volunteer/cheerleader on our cac!!!!!!!!!!!! If you are a deer hunter, it doesnt get much scarier than that!:s14:

Do i even need to tell you what her vote was? Luckily there were some people who know what is going on and care, so the vote overall ended up in a forced compromise of "stabilization" and not her wished for decrease to save the trillium and hobblebush was thwarted.