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PA BOC dialog on Crossbows, Jan 27

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PA BOC dialog on Crossbows, Jan 27

Old 03-05-2009, 07:48 PM
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Default PA BOC dialog on Crossbows, Jan 27

Below is the actual dialog concerning the crossbow vote on January 27th at the GC January Meeting. The format is a little tough to read but it's worth reading.
The link below will take you to the entire transcript of the meeting for that day:

http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/pgc/pdf/january_minutes_09.pdf

Pages 15 to 28





PRESIDENT PALONE: Thank you. Thank you, Director DuBrock.

10 I would like to call upon Director Rich Palmer. He's our Director of Wildlife

11 Protection. And we'll go to Adopted Rule Making on page 24.

12 MR. BECHTEL: The next item involves the adoption of proposed

13 amendments to Sections 141.41 and 141.43 through 143.45 and Section

14 141.47. 15 To effectively manage the wildlife resources of this Commonwealth, the

16 Game Commission, at its October 24th, 2008 meeting, proposed the following

17 changes: To amend Sections 141.41, 141.43 through 143.45 and Section

18 141.47 (relating to big game) to restructure the regulatory provisions relating

19 to big game hunting and to allow the use of crossbows during the various big

20 game seasons.

21 The Executive Director and staff recommend final adoption of these

22 amendments to 58 Pa. Code as shown on Exhibit A on pages 25 through 31 of

23 your agenda.

24 PRESIDENT PALONE: Thank you, Brad. Is there a motion to accept

25 this adopted rule making?

26 COMMISSIONER SCHLEIDEN: So moved.

27 PRESIDENT PALONE: Commissioner Schleiden. Is there a second?

1 COMMISSIONER ISABELLA: Second.

2 PRESIDENT PALONE: Second, Commissioner Isabella. Is there a discussion on the proposed adopted rule making.

3 COMMISSIONER ISABELLA: Madam President.

4 PRESIDENT PALONE: Commissioner Isabella.

5 COMMISSIONER ISABELLA: I want to offer an amendment, and

6 it's to make editorial changes to the broadhead description.

7 PRESIDENT PALONE: Okay. What page is that?

8 COMMISSIONER ISABELLA: That's going to be affecting page 25, 9 28, 29 and 31.

10 PRESIDENT PALONE: Okay. Go ahead.

11 COMMISSIONER ISABELLA: The language reads: "A crossbow

12 and bolt. A crossbow must have a peak draw weight of at least 125 pounds.

13 A bolt must be equipped with a broadhead that has an outside diameter or

14 width of at least 7/8th inches with at least two fixed cutting edges located on

15 the same plane throughout the length of the cutting surface and shall not

16 exceed 3 inches in length."

17 That is affecting page 25, Section 141.43 (a)(1); page 28, Section 141.44

18 (a)(1); page 29, Section 141.45 (a)(1); and page 31, Section 141.47 (a)(4) and

19 (5).

20 PRESIDENT PALONE: Thank you, Commissioner Isabella. Is there

21 a second?

22 COMMISSIONER WEANER: I second the motion.

23 PRESIDENT PALONE: Second, Commissioner Weaner. Is there any

24 discussion on the amendment to change the broadhead description? Hearing

25 none, all those in favor of the amendment signify by saying aye. All those

26 opposed say no.

27 COMMISSIONER BOOP: No.

28 PRESIDENT PALONE: No?

1 COMMISSIONER BOOP: No.

2 PRESIDENT PALONE: Commissioner Boop.

3 COMMISSIONER DELANEY: Madam President, the vote is six to

4 one. The editorial changes for Commissioner Isabella's amendment passes.

5 PRESIDENT PALONE: Thank you. Are there any other

6 amendments?

7 COMMISSIONER SCHREFFLER: Madam President.

8 PRESIDENT PALONE: Commissioner Schreffler.

9 COMMISSIONER SCHREFFLER: Madam President, I would like to

10 offer amendments also concerning several items. In the last weeks all the

11 communications and testimony has convinced me that there's much to learn

12 about implementing crossbow use during archery season. So I'm asking the

13 Bureau of Wildlife Management to better determine the facts and provide

14 timely reports to the Board of Commissioners so we may make a better

15 informed decision in the future. My amendment is as follows and is in several

16 parts, which I will cover one at a time after which we can vote on at once:

17 The first amendment includes a sunset clause to allow the use -- the first

18 amendment prohibits the use of magnifying telescopic sights for archery deer

19 and archery bear seasons. The language would be that the use of magnifying

20 telescopic sights would be a prohibited item affecting under pages 26, Section

21 141.43 (a)(2)(3) and on page 28, Section 141.44 (a)(2)(5).

22 The second item is the sunset clause, to allow the use of crossbows in archery

23 deer and archery bear season. And the wording should be, This subparagraph

24 shall become effective July 1st, 2009, and expire on June 30th, 2012, unless

25 the Commission authorizes its continued legal effectiveness prior to June

26 30th, 2012. This will be inserted on page 25, Section 141.43 (a)(1)(2) and on

27 page 28, Section 141.44 (a)(1)(2)

1 That concludes my amendment.

2 PRESIDENT PALONE: Thank you. Is there a second to Commissioner Schreffler's amendment?

3 COMMISSIONER ISABELLA: Second.

4 PRESIDENT PALONE: Second, Commissioner Isabella. Is there any

5 discussion of the amendment? Commissioner Boop.

6 COMMISSIONER BOOP: Yes. A point of order. Can we discuss

7 both proposed amendments at one time, or do you want to discuss them

8 separately?

9 COMMISSIONER SCHLEIDEN: Madam President.

10 COMMISSIONER BOOP: The two proposed amendments, as I

11 understand, can we discuss them together or separately?

12 PRESIDENT PALONE: We can discuss them together because

13 Commissioner Schreffler asked that we vote on them together.

14 COMMISSIONER BOOP: May I then?

15 PRESIDENT PALONE: Yes, go ahead, Commissioner Boop.

16 COMMISSIONER BOOP: With respect to the two proposed

17 amendments, I'll discuss the sunset provision amendment first. I've been on

18 this board for five years. I've been a municipal solicitor for 35. My

19 experience with sunset provisions is they simply do not work. You cannot

20 give something and then later, after there's been reliance on it, take it away.

21 So the sunset amendment in my opinion respectfully does nothing to add a

22 plus or a minus to the original proposal.

23 On the issue of the magnification or telescopic sights, one of the

24 arguments that I have heard in favor of this main proposal to allow crossbows

25 is that it will get the Commission out of the permit business on this issue.

26 Currently we're issuing somewhere around 60,000 of these permits, and it is a

27 bureaucratic problem for the agency and an expense. This amendment will

1 simply put us back in permit business in my opinion. Studies have shown that

2 approximately one-third of elderly people in this country suffer from some

3 form of vision deficit. We already have 60 some thousand people out there

4 hunting with crossbows, presumably some of which have visual impairments.

5 So this amendment is going to take away the strongest argument in favor of

6 crossbows about getting us out of the permit business. In a couple of years,

7 we'll be right back in the permit business on this issue with people applying

8 and wanting to get disability permits because they have visual impairments.

9 So I do not think that the amendment is appropriate or wise. This proposal,

10 the main amendment should fall or rise on its own merits without this

11 amendment.

12 PRESIDENT PALONE: Thank you, Commissioner Boop. Are there

13 any other comments about these amendments? I would just like to say that

14 people would still be allowed to use the 1-by-30 red dot 0 devices that would

15 help them with their vision. So we really aren't discouraging people from

16 using those. They're very helpful in sighting your target. Any other

17 discussion?

18 COMMISSIONER BOOP: Excuse me, Madam President. Just a

19 point of clarification, if Commissioner Schreffler's amendment passes, those

20 people who are already permitted to use a crossbow, are they going to be able

21 to use magnifying telescopic sights? I don't understand the amendment in that

22 respect.

23 PRESIDENT PALONE: Director Palmer.

24 MR. PALMER: Commissioner Boop, no, they would not. The

25 amendment as made would prohibit the use of all magnifying telescopic sights

26 with no exceptions.

27 COMMISSIONER BOOP: Thank you.

1 PRESIDENT PALONE: Any other questions or discussion? Hearing

2 none, all those in favor of the amendments signify by saying aye. All those

3 opposed say no.

(Vote taken.)


4 COMMISSIONER DELANEY: Madam President, I want to give our

5 stenographer what the vote was so we can have it entered into the record.

6 PRESIDENT PALONE: Do you need a show of hands?

7 COMMISSIONER DELANEY: That would be better if we could so it

8 could be reflected in the official minutes.

9 PRESIDENT PALONE: All those in favor of the amendment signify

10 by raising your right hand.

11 COMMISSIONER DELANEY: I have the yeses, Madam President.

12 PRESIDENT PALONE: All of those opposed,

13 same sign.

(Vote taken.)


15 COMMISSIONER DELANEY: Madam President, the vote is yes,

16 Commissioner Isabella, Commissioner Schreffler, Commissioner Schleiden,

17 Commissioner Palone. Commissioner Delaney and Commissioner Boop,

18 Commissioner Weaner what was your vote?

19 COMMISSIONER WEANER: No.

20 COMMISSIONER DELANEY: Commissioner Weaner is no also. So

21 the vote is four to three.

22 PRESIDENT PALONE: Thank you. Back to the original adopted

23 rule making. We'll vote on the proposal as amended to restructure the

24 regulatory provisions relating to big game hunting and to allow the use of

25 crossbows during the various big game seasons. All those in favor of the

26 proposed --

27 COMMISSIONER BOOP: Madam President, are we not going to

28 allow discussion on the main motion as amended?


1 PRESIDENT PALONE: Yes, we can.

2 COMMISSIONER BOOP: Because I think we ought to have an

3 opportunity to --

4 PRESIDENT PALONE: I thought we had done that. Thank you.

5 COMMISSIONER BOOP: No. All we had discussion on so far was

6 the amendment. As a point of order, I think we should allow discussion.

7 PRESIDENT PALONE: Go ahead. Does anyone else want to discuss

8 the original proposal?

9 COMMISSIONER WEANER: Yes.

10 PRESIDENT PALONE: Commissioner Weaner.

11 COMMISSIONER WEANER: Are you calling me now?

12 PRESIDENT PALONE: Yes.

13 COMMISSIONER WEANER: In the original proposal to change

14 them to add crossbows to the full season, I would like to explain my reason

15 for voting no on this proposal. And my reasons for such are that I don't see a

16 biological argument either way on this issue, therefore you come down to

17 sociological issues or some other means of determining which way to vote.

18 And from my correspondence and people I talked to and the people that have

19 contacted me, I feel fairly confident that the overwhelming majority of hunters

20 in Pennsylvania are not in favor of this. At the risk of annoying, ticking off,

21 angering the vast majority of the hunters in Pennsylvania, I think it would be

22 foolish to vote yes on this. I don't see a huge benefit to anybody by voting

23 yes. I don't think we're going to recruit significant more hunters. I just don't

24 see an upside. And to me, unless there's a huge upside, it's not worth angering

25 one of our greatest constituencies. So therefore I also vote no.

26 PRESIDENT PALONE: Any other discussion? Commissioner Boop.

27 COMMISSIONER BOOP: Yes, Madam President. I also intend to

28 vote no on the proposal, and I would like to give my reasons for voting no. In

1 the years 2006 and 2007, I had the unique opportunity to be president of the

2 board. One of roles of the president is that you assign and control the flow of

3 information through the committees. In all of 2006 and all of 2007, this was

4 never an issue of any significance. There were no requests made. This was

5 not even in my knowledge, to my knowledge even on the radar screen or the

6 agenda of proposals coming up through the agency. At the end of June of

7 2008, one commissioner made a request that we consider this proposal and

8 ask staff to consider it. Here we are seven months later and being asked to

9 vote on the final approval.

10 This agency in the five years that I have been here has taken a slow,

11 metrological approach to all issues. We can cite countless examples. The

12 archery bear. It went through committee. A two-day season in the middle of

13 the week, a three-year trial period, a collecting of information. Look what

14 we've done with bobcats, the slow, methodical approach that we've taken.

15 And we've applied science, we've gathered information, and we've acted in a

16 very cautious manner. We're taking the same approach to fishers.

17 So I ask my fellow commissioners, why the rush on this issue? Why

18 the rush to judgment when we have not any of these things on this particular

19 issue? So I have to ask myself what is driving this issue. And I think maybe

20 it's the sportsmen. Maybe the sportsmen want it. We as commissioners think

21 everyone sitting up here probably receives somewhere between 500 and 1,000

22 e-mails and letters and phone calls and personal contacts about this issue since

23 it was proposed in June. Most commissioners I've talked to, the opposition

24 was 90 percent to 10. Now, some commissioners in the more metropolitan

25 areas may have had more like 50/50. Mine was clearly running 90 percent or

26 more opposed to the NRA alert Thursday a week ago. But even then it was

27 roughly 50 percent voters.



1 I agree with Commissioner Weaner, if you're going to spend so much

2 political capital, you ought to get some benefit. We're going to annoy and

3 aggravate, I believe, the vast majority of our supporting community. And an

4 argument can be made that we're, in effect, destroying the six weeks' archery

5 season by putting this crossbow initiative in for the full six weeks. So what's

6 driving it? The only thing that I can see are two real possibilities driving this.

7 Number one, there seems to be a fear that if we don't act, that the Legislature

8 is going to act. Well, they may. They may act one way or the other.

9 Regardless how we vote here today, there may be legislation introduced.

10 Quite candidly, I believe, based upon the contacts that I have, Legislators are

11 going to get more contacts to introduce legislation to do something about

12 allowing crossbows in this season than to do something the other way.

13 We don't want the Legislature to interfere. So I ask myself and I ask

14 fellow commissioners, Why don't we do what we've done with every similar

15 proposal? Why don't we send it back to the Committee? Why don't we study

16 this issue? Why don't we contact the groups that are involved to see if a six-

17 week season is merited or a one-week season is merited or whether we should

18 limit this to one or two management units rather than this rush to get it in so

19 quickly with so little debate and discussion.

20 Just as evidence that we're rushing it, we have to be to have

21 Commissioner Isabella's amendment this morning to clarify the specifications.

22 I think that's just another clear example. If this is a good proposal, it will be a

23 good proposal in 2010. We'll do our due diligence and we'll come back, and it

24 will be a good proposal then just like it's a good proposal now. I, quite

25 frankly, fellow commissioners, am very troubled by the amount of money

26 that's involved here. Now, you've made fun of my numbers. But if you go out

27 to an archery shop and we all know that your 50-year-old hunter whose

28 children are out of the house and they want to get the right equipment at


1 Cabela's or Gander Mountain or whatever, they're going to spend, quite

2 frankly, close to a thousand dollars to go crossbow hunting this fall. And I

3 think that the statistics show -- and although I argued it with Mr. Galida who's

4 here representing the crossbow manufacturers, I think there's about a hundred

5 million dollars in play here. Another year will tell us how much that hundred

6 million dollars has affected this process. So on the merits, there's very little to

7 be gained. There's a lot to be lost.

8 There's a couple of other things that I think merit consideration. This

9 board is changing. By September of this year, we're going to have three new

10 commissioners, hopefully. It's quite possible from the discussion that we've

11 had here that we're going to go into the fall with a relatively new board having

12 to deal with what this is going to cost. And as many as six of those

13 commissioners could be opposed to this proposal. So for those two

14 commissioners that are going off, I simply ask you, is it fair to burden this

15 agency with this proposal, so poorly thought out, and have this occur? I

16 encourage every member of this board to vote this proposal down. If you

17 don't want to vote it down, at least let's table it and go back and do the due

18 diligence we should have done in the first place. I'm respectfully am moving

19 to table this motion.

20 PRESIDENT PALONE: There's a motion on the floor to table the

21 proposal. Is there a second?

22 COMMISSIONER WEANER: I second the motion.

23 PRESIDENT PALONE: Commissioner Weaner. Is there any further

24 discussion? We'll vote on the amendment to table. All those in favor signify

25 by saying aye.

26 (Vote taken.)

27 COMMISSIONER DELANEY: Madam President, if I can ask by a

28 show of hands.



1 PRESIDENT PALONE: A show of hands those that would like to

2 table. All those opposed of table.

3 (Vote taken.)

4 PRESIDENT PALONE: Thank you.

5 COMMISSIONER DELANEY: Madam President, the vote was three

6 to four, and that amendment will fail.

7 PRESIDENT PALONE: Thank you. I just want to have a little

8 discussion before we vote on the final proposal as amended. Some people

9 have said that we will lose our support if we vote on crossbows; that people

10 have supported the Game Commission in the past; that they have supported

11 commissioners in the past. But I would say that it's really not about the

12 agency or the commissioners. What you're really supporting is wildlife

13 management, and it's really not about us. Either you're going to support

14 wildlife management or not. And it's about supporting our natural resources.

15 And I believe that sportsmen and conservationists will go on supporting

16 wildlife management and our natural resources and conservation no matter

17 how we vote on this issue. So it's really not about us. If hunting were a

18 growing and expanding sport, I might vote no on crossbows. But, really,

19 hunting is a waning sport when you look at the whole society. Dedicated

20 hunters will go on hunting. Other people will go on to other things.

21 Pennsylvania is really getting much older as a state. Our average age of

22 people is only second to Florida. It's the oldest state. So it's not like we have

23 millions and millions and millions of new people knocking down our door to

24 go hunting. And we need to look at ourselves as hunters and not as small

25 factions.

26 Being on the Commission for all the years I've been on, I really heard a lot of

27 stories about doom and gloom and predictions and doom and gloom, but

28 really none of those things have happened. I'm not going to go into all of


1 those examples, but there were several examples about safety issues if we did

2 this or that, hunters rushing up to take over Game Land 176 if we open grouse

3 season, things like that; safety issues in our October season. Those things

4 have not come to pass. I don't think that crossbows will roll into the hunting

5 season and all the dire predictions will come to pass. But I guess the biggest

6 issue for me is that this is 2009. And while the anti-hunting community and

7 the animal rights community is growing and getting more money and more

8 organized, we are still arguing about what kind of hunting implements we're

9 going use. And as a commissioner, I don't have really that luxury to look at

10 very tiny, finite pieces of information. I have to look at really the big things

11 going on. Just an example, in Allegheny County there is really an organized,

12 growing opposition to hunting and hunters and hunting implements. So I

13 think it's in our best interest to try to come together on these issues and really

14 focus on those people who would try to end our hunting heritage and our

15 hunting privileges. Now, I'm going to call for the question.

16 COMMISSIONER SCHLEIDEN: Madam President.

17 PRESIDENT PALONE: Commissioner Schleiden.

18 COMMISSIONER SCHLEIDEN: Thank you, Madam President.

19 First of all, Commissioner Boop, we worked on point-of-sale for what, two

20 and a half years? And this morning we had to make some

21 amendments/corrections of the wording. I think that's pretty standard

22 procedure. And, Commissioner Weaner, I'm sure when you indicated that you

23 thought it was foolish to do this, you meant the idea and not the

24 commissioners.

25 COMMISSIONER WEANER: Yes.

26 COMMISSIONER SCHLEIDEN: The fact that we're supposedly

27 rushing to judgment is not really true, not really true. I think our good friends

28 -- and they still are our good friends -- have indicated that they fought this



1 thing three times. So ever since I've been on the Board, this has been an issue.

2 As a matter of fact, I still have postcards from the last round and now we use

3 the Internet. The NRA was mentioned. The NRA has a hunting division, they

4 are hunters. And they did respond when they found out, by the way,

5 Commissioner Boop. That's what the process is about.

6 This commissioner brought it up in June so that we would have public

7 comment and an opportunity. I asked in June to bring it forward in October so

8 that all voices could be heard, both for and against. And we've had some good

9 testimony from both sides. Manufactured in this is manufactured. They

10 manufacture crossbows as well. I have a crossbow buyer guide. It's not

11 crossbow. It's a bow hunters buyers guide that I looked at this morning. It

12 had 112 pages in it. Eight pages was on sights for compound bow, and most

13 of the advertising in it was for items for compound bow, the efficiency of the

14 arrow and some of the changes that were made. So to me this is freedom of

15 choice. It's that simple, folks, it's freedom of choice about what tool you want

16 to use. It's also about streamlining regulations. Now, I know that all of the

17 hunters out there like freedom of choice except if it's an NV dealer. I know

18 that all the sportsmen like to see our regulations streamlined. This is cleaning

19 it up quite a bit.

20 I question this business about the $1,000. That may be true, my friend,

21 Commissioner Boop. But if they don't want it, why would they spend a

22 thousand dollars for crossbow? It doesn't make sense to me. So they must

23 want it. And I've heard this business that nobody wants this. But if you pass

24 it, everybody is going to do it. So what really is the issue? That's my

25 question.

26 Now, I'll speak to the fact that two of us are going off the Board. And

27 we have had that transition throughout the period of time that I've been on this

28 board, new people coming on. There's been communications between us.



1 And I respectfully submit to you that I was not really crazy about the

2 sunshine, and I'm not really crazy about the magnifying device. However,

3 realizing I'm going off the Board, whether your experience is the example of

4 all experiences or not, I felt that that was a reasonable request by

5 Commissioner Schreffler to look at this thing in two or three years. Why did I

6 feel that way? Because I know there will be some other commissioners on

7 this board. And if they feel strongly about it, they will bring it up. So those

8 are the reasons that I brought this thing forward and asked. No matter how it

9 goes, it's pure and simple from my standpoint and that's what it is. That's my

10 comments.

11 PRESIDENT PALONE: Any other comments? All those in favor of

12 the rule making as amended signify by raising your right hand. All those

13 opposed to the rule making as amended, same sign.

14 (Vote taken.)

15 COMMISSIONER DELANEY: Madam President, the vote is four to

16 three to accept the proposed rule making with the amendments.

17 PRESIDENT PALONE: Thank you, Commissioner Delaney.
Matt / PA is offline  
Old 03-05-2009, 08:20 PM
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Default RE: PA BOC dialog on Crossbows, Jan 27

Thanks for posting that matt. I particularly liked Weaner and Boops well thought out positions and rebuttals.
----------------------------------------------
"COMMISSIONER WEANER:

In the original proposal to change

them to add crossbows to the full season, I would like to explain my reason for voting no on this proposal. And my reasons for such are that I don't see abiological argument either way on this issue, therefore you come down tosociological issues or some other means of determining which way to vote.And from my correspondence and people I talked to and the people that havecontacted me, I feel fairly confident that the overwhelming majority of huntersin Pennsylvania are not in favor of this. At the risk of annoying, ticking off angering the vast majority of the hunters in Pennsylvania, I think it would befoolish to vote yes on this. I don't see a huge benefit to anybody by voting yes. I don't think we're going to recruit significant more hunters. I just don'tsee an upside. And to me, unless there's a huge upside, it's not worth angeringone of our greatest constituencies.

COMMISSIONER BOOP: Yes, Madam President. I also intend to vote no on the proposal, and I would like to give my reasons for voting no. Inthe years 2006 and 2007, I had the unique opportunity to be president of theboard. One of roles of the president is that you assign and control the flow of information through the committees. In all of 2006 and all of 2007, this wasnever an issue of any significance. There were no requests made. This was not even in my knowledge, to my knowledge even on the radar screen or theagenda of proposals coming up through the agency. At the end of June of 7 2008, one commissioner made a request that we consider this proposal and ask staff to consider it. Here we are seven months later and being asked to vote on the final approval. This agency in the five years that I have been here has taken a slow, metrological approach to all issues. We can cite countless examples. The archery bear. It went through committee. A two-day season in the middle ofthe week, a three-year trial period, a collecting of information. Look what we've done with bobcats, the slow, methodical approach that we've taken. And we've applied science, we've gathered information, and we've acted in avery cautious manner. We're taking the same approach to fishers. So I ask my fellow commissioners, why the rush on this issue? Why the rush to judgment when we have not any of these things on this particularissue? So I have to ask myself what is driving this issue. And I think maybe it's the sportsmen. Maybe the sportsmen want it. We as commissioners think everyone sitting up here probably receives somewhere between 500 and 1,000e-mails and letters and phone calls and personal contacts about this issue sinceit was proposed in June. Most commissioners I've talked to, the oppositionwas 90 percent to 10. Now, some commissioners in the more metropolitan areas may have had more like 50/50. Mine was clearly running 90 percent or more opposed to the NRA alert Thursday a week ago. But even then it wasroughly 50 percent voters. I agree with Commissioner Weaner, if you're going to spend so much political capital, you ought to get some benefit. We're going to annoy andaggravate, I believe, the vast majority of our supporting community. And anargumentcan be made that we're, in effect, destroying the six weeks' archeryseason by putting this crossbow initiative in for the full six weeks. So what'sdriving it? The only thing that I can see are two real possibilities driving this. Number one, there seems to be a fear that if we don't act, that the Legislatureis going to act. Well, they may. They may act one way or the other. Regardless how we vote here today, there may be legislation introduced. Quite candidly, I believe, based upon the contacts that I have, Legislators aregoing to get more contacts to introduce legislation to do something aboutallowing crossbows in this season than to do something the other way. We don't want the Legislature to interfere. So I ask myself and I askfellow commissioners, Why don't we do what we've done with every similarproposal? Why don't we send it back to the Committee? Why don't we studythis issue? Why don't we contact the groups that are involved to see if a six- week season is merited or a one-week season is merited or whether we shouldlimit this to one or two management units rather than this rush to get it in so quickly with so little debate and discussion. Just as evidence that we're rushing it, we have to be to have Commissioner Isabella's amendment this morning to clarify the specifications. I think that's just another clear example. If this is a good proposal, it will be a good proposal in 2010. We'll do our due diligence and we'll come back, and itwill be a good proposal then just like it's a good proposal now. I, quitefrankly, fellow commissioners, am very troubled by the amount of moneythat's involved here.Now, you've made fun of my numbers. But if you go out to an archery shop and we all know that your 50-year-old hunter whosechildren are out of the house and they want to get the right equipment atCabela's or Gander Mountain or whatever, they're going to spend, quitefrankly, close to a thousand dollars to go crossbow hunting this fall. And Ithink that the statistics show -- and although I argued it with Mr. Galida who'shere representing the crossbow manufacturers, I think there's about a hundredmillion dollars in play here. Another year will tell us how much that hundredmillion dollars has affected this process. So on the merits, there's very little to be gained. There's a lot to be lost. There's a couple of other things that I think merit consideration. This board is changing. By September of this year, we're going to have three new commissioners, hopefully. It's quite possible from the discussion that we'vehad here that we're going to go into the fall with a relatively new board havingto deal with what this is going to cost. And as many as six of those commissioners could be opposed to this proposal. So for those twocommissioners that are going off, I simply ask you, is it fair to burden thisagency with this proposal, so poorly thought out, and have this occur? Iencourage every member of this board to vote this proposal down. If youdon't want to vote it down, at least let's table it and go back and do the duediligence we should have done in the first place. I'm respectfully am movingto table this motion.
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Old 03-05-2009, 08:52 PM
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Default RE: PA BOC dialog on Crossbows, Jan 27

Out of all the commissioners,I never cared for Pallone or Schleiden.But these two commissioners along with the other two that voted yes where not the soul driving force for the crossbows. Crossbow manufactures,Legislators, the NRA and good old Uncle Ted Nugent, all had a hand in this. I was browsing the web after my outing this morning and came across a New Jersey forum. They want to make crossbows legal for all archery. And their bowhunters are PO too! Their response, why is the NRA sticking their nose in this? and a few are claiming to stop their membership. The next two will be NY and NJ. and the same people are pushing it their.[/align][/align]NRA strongly advocates for any expansion of hunter opportunity and choice when there is no biological reason to oppose the expansion. In fact, states that have allowed the use of crossbows have been able to maintain healthy wildlife populations. Additionally, the recruitment and retention of hunters has improved by removing crossbow restrictions. At a time when the number of hunters is declining, nothing is more important than the ongoing effort to preserve and strengthen our hunting heritage. Credit: NRA [/align][/align]This is what Teddy had to say:[/align]
[/align]In Nugent’s opinion — and he has a few — those rights should include the right of all hunters to use not only primitive and compound bows, but also crossbows, in any and all deer seasons.

A certified International Bowhunter Education Foundation instructor, he clings to that belief, even though it flies in the face of the views expressed by the United Bowhunters of Pennsylvania and rhetorically asks who would be so “rude” to tell a licensed hunter how they can kill their deer.

“Everybody knows that Pennsylvania must kill a certain number of deer each year,” Nugent said. “I support legalizing crossbows for all open seasons in all states — period.

“Every lie from the anti-crossbow zealots has been proven false for many years, even though they represent a dwindling lunatic fringe. It is a shame that there are such petty, selfish, dishonest people in our sport.

“I pray that the good sporters who know better become more involved and active so as to rid our sport of these suicidal policies that fly in the face of scientific game management and upgraded quality outdoor opportunities for more voting sporters.”Credit:The Republican Herald[/align]
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Old 03-06-2009, 08:13 AM
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Default RE: PA BOC dialog on Crossbows, Jan 27

The commissioners who voted are SOLELY to blame. When 3 chose NOT to cater to the minority and the manufacturers, etc... The others couldve just as easily chosen to do the same.

As for nugent. Never cared for him. Nothing but a cockyattention wanting loudmouth idiot.
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Old 03-06-2009, 01:03 PM
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Default RE: PA BOC dialog on Crossbows, Jan 27

"And we need to look at ourselves as hunters and not as smallfactions." Bravo PresidentPalone!!
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Old 03-06-2009, 03:22 PM
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Default RE: PA BOC dialog on Crossbows, Jan 27

Quoting PALLONE? (LOL) Thats a sure way to the hearts of Pa hunters! (LOL) Worst commissioner in the history of PGC.[:'(]
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Old 03-07-2009, 04:29 AM
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Default RE: PA BOC dialog on Crossbows, Jan 27

so insulting Ted is the way to go ?OK, In case you havent noticed teds loud mouth is in the sportsman corner.
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Old 03-07-2009, 06:01 AM
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Default RE: PA BOC dialog on Crossbows, Jan 27

ORIGINAL: 4patches

so insulting Ted is the way to go ?OK, In case you havent noticed teds loud mouth is in the sportsman corner.
Yeah, Ted's loud mouth is for the hunter. Also,their are times for Ted to keep his loud mouth shut.He can speak on how important hunting is and that we have a right to hunt. He can speak on our behalf to own guns. But who the hell is Ted to tell any state wildlife agency how they shouldregulate their hunting seasons? Especialy when he is not a resident of that state.It's funny, good ol uncle Teddy didn't want full inclusion of crossbows in Michigans archery season,when he was a resident their.Now that he lives is in Texas,he will be pushing with the NRA for full inclusion in Michigan.[/align][/align]Do you agree with allowing crossbow use during bow season? I believe crossbows should be legal for all legal hunters from the opening day of firearms season 11-15 thru the end of all deer seasons. I also agree with the professional biologists that MI & most states bow season should begin 9-1 & go thru 2-1 of the following year with baglimits appropriate to regional balance needs. I believe that QDM should be decided region by region by a vote by the licensed hunters. There is no doubt that our deer herd would improve dynamically & hunt opps would as well. Godbless the BloodBrothers, Ted Credit: Spirit of the Wild web-site. [/align][/align][/align]We all also know, most things that Ted does is for Teddy! Can we say$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$[/align]
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Old 03-07-2009, 12:32 PM
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Default RE: PA BOC dialog on Crossbows, Jan 27

"so insulting Ted is the way to go ?OK, In case you havent noticed teds loud mouth is in the sportsman corner. "

First off, I dont take "ted" to be the sensitive type that would care one way or the other about my comment. (LOL)

Second, i think it is very good thing that he uses his celebrity status to speak out on behalf of hunting. But that doesnt mean hes not abrasive personality wise and that suredoesnt meanwe all have to agree with every single thing he says.
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