RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

lots of deer tracts on my mountain top still a foot snow on ground as of yesterday after noon
bad news is alot of them have the poops

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

"If you find something to be false then prove some supporting facts instead of just your opinions and perceptions. "

Thats exactly what I do every time you tell your lies.[8D]

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

Deer come down to the rivers, streams and creeks when the snow gets deep and burns up their energy trying to push through it to find food. That happens every year we have prolonged periods of deep snow.

They walk on the ice because a lot of the snow gets blown off of the ice and they no longer have to push through deep snow to move around. By walking on the ice they can also reach a lot of browse that hangs out over the water and out of their reach during all other times of the year.

Deer can walk on the ice of the waterways without much trouble because it is level and frequently still has a little snow on it that allows for traction. If deer are forced to run on the ice though they are more prone to pelvis injuries but they generally do better at avoiding predators when they can get to the wind swept ice with little snow cover then trying to plow through deep snow. That is why deer head for the ice when they are being chased in the snow, we saw that all the time back in the seventies when we had some major problems with dogs. We actually worked the river corridor shooting dogs as they chased deer on the frozen river ice.
Dogs killed dozens upon dozens of deer out on the ice during some of those years.

The year of the ice on the steep mountain sides did kill a lot of deer in some areas but not nearly as many as what I have seen following some of our worst deep snow years. I that know that because I was out there working and seeing the affects of both the ice on the mountains and deep snows of a prolonged winter.

R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

No that isn’t what you do.

All you do is say they are lies, but you never produce anything that proves then wrong. You expressing your opinions, with no supporting evidence to prove something is wrong, doesn’t mean much other then that you don’t agree with the facts presented. If you can find something that proves me wrong, other then your or someone else’s opinion, then by all means go ahead and do so. I am certainly not apposed to factual information that proves me wrong and then points in a new direction, that is how we all learn.

I learn some new things pretty much everyday. You could too if you had a more open mind. I have discovered that it is much easier for someone that knows nothing to learn then it is for someone who simply thinks they already know everything.

R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

"No that isn’t what you do. "

Thats EXACTLY what I do. And your saying otherwise can't change that fact. Your lies are meaningless.

"All you do is say they are lies, but you never produce anything that proves then wrong."

Actually I did. I pointed out every single mistake and flawed logic you attempted to pass off as fact. To intentionally do that, you were lying plain and simple.

"You expressing your opinions, with no supporting evidence to prove something is wrong,"

Obviously you have a problem withtelling the diff. between fact and opinion. Denying the "proof" is simply you lying to cover other lies youve told.

"I am certainly not apposed to factual information that proves me wrong and then points in a new direction, that is how we all learn. "

Unless the facts don't support the unsupportable widescale deer slaughter plan. Then you dont want to hear it period.

"I learn some new things pretty much everyday. You could too if you had a more open mind."

Ive learned alot. Thats why Im not blindly supporting the pgcnonsense deer plan as is. The facts dont support it. Thehunters dont support the slaughter the only ones that do is you and ecoextremists which arepretty much one and the same.

"I have discovered that it is much easier for someone that knows nothing to learn then it is for someone who simply thinks they already know everything. "

Gee that was really clever. Really meaningful too. A condescending attitude straight from a liar, towards someone who clearly knows about 3 times what you do, and isnt a blind little lap dog for their corrupt employment agency.;)

Id say you should quit while behind. I hear its possible for pgclies to be spread, and sworn to, with any meaningful challenge 100% prohibited over on hpa. Maybe you'll have better luck there? ;)

We can trade insults for the next 20 posts or you can try to do the impossible, and prove your position via the facts.

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

Funny you should mention that, as I received an email from an unnamed source just yesterday morning mentioning that exact concern.

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

You claimed breeding rates declined by 5% because of a shift in sample size and distribution. I proved you were wrong and you provided nothing to support your opinion so there was no need for anyone else to prove you were wrong. You said buck harvests would return to normal and the harvest data proved that they didn't. therefore there was no need for anyone else to prove you were wrong. You said increased breeding rates would offset the negative effects of HR, but the deer proved you were wrong.

Now why don't you provide a list of the things that happened as you claimed they would.

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

The "proof" you provided for that claim was no proof at all because you inserted your own assumptions that had no basis in fact. All who commented on it after the assumptions you inserted were pointed out agreed that your facts were not presented objectively and therefore incorrect. Since then you have claimed over and over that you "proved your point" All who saw it agreed that your "proof" was flawed but feel free to go ahead and try again.

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

Wrong again!! I provided the sample size data from the annual reports that was used to determine breeding rates and it showed that almost twice as many doe were sampled in 2B and 5C as in 2F and 2G. The southern tier counties with higher breeding rates still provide the highest percentage of does sampled ,just like before the statewide breeding rates decreased.

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

You claimed that RSB's explanation that sampling emphasis has shifted to areas with inherently lower breeding rates as an explanation for a drop in breeding rates was impossible. A fair way to present your case would have been to change sample size only. Sample size was cited as the reason for the change so to disprove RSB assertions, thats the only thing that should have been varied in your example. Your example wouldn't support your position with sampling emphasis being the only variable so youarbitrarily added in other changes to make your little formula produce the desired results.

This is a classicexample of the old phrase "figures don't lie but liars can figure".

Most of your deceptions require more intense scrutiny to detect. This one was easier because you made the mistake of spelling out what you did in your calculations. Usually you hide it better when you do this kind of thing but you do it frequently.

reading your analysis of deer mangement issues is like watching NBC news. NBC news covertly inserts spin to support their liberal agenda into almost everything and you insert spin to support your haterd for the PGC. Your agenda isn't even about deer management any more. It's simply an irrational hatred for everyhting PGC. You have yet to ever introduce any constructive criticism, only negative spin from Bluebird.

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

Maybe the breeding rates declined could be tied into the funding short fall,it could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that breeding rates and financial difficulties are happening because Gary Alt shot all of the rich,mature,and pretty doe and then ran off to California because he hates PA deer hunters.
And now the P.G.C. is flatbroke and we are left with a couple ofhomely does that no bucks wants to rut with.
I'm feeling kinda [&:].

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

No, you couldn't present accurate before and after numbers and instead gave county numbers for one time period and wmu numbers for the other. WMU lines split counties in half and vice versa. No accurate conclusions can be drawn by comparing counties to WMU's

WMU vs county information is classic apples vs oranges. It didnt fly the first time you tried and it wont fly now

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

I also provided the current sample sizes and distribution from the 2007 AWR which shows only a total 107 doe were check in 2F and 2G while the combined results for 2B and 5C was 288. That totally negates your and RSB's claim that the 5% decline in breeding rates was die to a shift in sample size and location.

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

""am a former mod and I have absolutely NO love for that weasel Dutch.....GTF shot herself in the foot when she posted about the 28% mortality""

I see you are definately able to identify a weasel when you see one...or two!;)

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

After telling hunters to take a flying leap for preventing the PGC from managing the deer, guess who said this on another MB?
Now that the deer in 2G have nearly twice as much food/deer as they did before, fawn recruitment should have increased dramatically over the past few years.

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

Their is no evidence to support your theory that there is twice as much food in 2G as before. We could resonably expect that there would be some better quantities of forage but assuming twice as much is not realistic.

fawn mortality due to poor nutrition and low birth rates seem a far more plausible theory in light of the doe and fawn mortality studies showing both the higher fawn mortality experienced in Quehanna and also to te low apparent mortality in both due to hunting.

The part we didn'tlearn aboutfawn mortality from the study is how many were lost before even being detected and captured by thefawn study crews. fawns dying within the first24-48 hours of life were not addressed in the study. The study started with captured live fawns and monitired mortality after that.

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

If the herd is reduced by 50% in 2G, can you explain why there wouldn't be twice as much food/deer? Furthermore, since breeding rates and productivity decreased as the herd was reduced, we know that the habitat was not the controlling factor which determined breeding rates and productivity.
The fact that the study didn't account for those fawns doesn't matter. Based on harvest data and the road killed doe that are checked they know how many fawns are recruited each year and that is the number that really matters.

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

There is another prime example of how you twist things intogoofiness at every opportunity. I swear I don’t know if you are that far out of touch with reality or if you are just evil minded in your attempts to promoteyour misguided mission.

There is not twice as much food per deer or anything close to it. In fact the only reason there are fewer deer in unit 2G is from the fact that the food that was there through those back to back harsh winter years wouldn’t support the increased number of deer that occurred through that previous run of five or six consecutive years of better then normal mast with no winter snows. What happened in unit 2G was that the deer population just crashed to meet the level of the existing habitat and environmental conditions. The habitat did improve slightly because nature reduced the deer populations to a level that matched those harsh winters, which was actually lower then it normally needs to be. So with fewer deer the habitat has improved, but not enough for any major or long term increase in deer numbers.

The deer population will, and all indicators are that it already is, increase to meet the improved habitat as long as we have normal winters. But, in the northern tier mountainous areas of the state the deer numbers will always experience some normal, and even significant, up and down trends based on the annual environmental variables.

By the way, you should have pulled and posted those pictures of the winter starved deer in Greene County from that other site too. Must be that didn't fit into your agenda.

Cornelius needs to see those dead deer though since he believes there aren’t any habitat issues preventing more deer down that way; I guess the deer are telling a different story about the state of the habitat down there in Greene County and unit 2A though.

R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

"By the way, you should have pulled and posted those pictures of the winter starved deer in Greene County from that other site too. Must be that didn't fit into your agenda."

Rediculous. Tens of thousands of deer in a wmu, with fine herd and habitat health, and you think thatZERO deer should ever die? News for you RSB, natural mortality is just that. Natural. And it includes sickness, disease, injury, infection, lingering woundsetc.To expect NONE todie EVER during harsh winter is rediculous. AndIve lived and traveled this wmufor many many years and have many friends family members etc. who do as well, some of which are landowners....And winter kill has NEVER been a problem in Greene. EVER.There is not onewmu (or any other northern state for that matter) that NEVER has ANY deer die during winter, and by comparison This area is FAR less than most. Also if you compare the percentages of winterkill to other areas of the state, considering herd size, the kill in sw is a completenonissue and tiny by comparison....and even having said that, the other areas don't exactly exceed the norm either. You guys are in a whole other world up there. We had a bit of snow a couple of weeks ago. Maybe an inch. Its been gone for awhile. You guys probably still have snow? You guys get it by the foot. If we get a foot of snow, its about a once in a decade occurence if we're lucky. Really funny when I see the weather maps on tv and the snow you guys get and we arelucky to get a half inch.

"Cornelius needs to see those dead deer though since he believes there aren’t any habitat issues preventing more deer down that way;"

RSB, I get outALOT. All year long. I see what goes on here, and Ive also seen the data, which btw backs me 100%. You are preaching a very basic principal that simply doesnt apply here to the extent you think it mightwhile sittingtherehalf a stateaway, lucky to have ever set foot in the wmuat all. I know what goes on on properties across all corners of this wmu all throughout the year. I am also intimately familiar with what deer eat and what is available. In this wmu there is MUCH more to eat than many other areas of the state, even with alot more deer munchin' on it.(LOL);)

"I guess the deer are telling a different story about the state of the habitat down there in Greene County and unit 2A though. "

Not at all. Not in the least. As healthy a herd as anywhere in the state. Of course, it was even when we had twice the overwinter deer. Now to insinuate otherwise is absolutely rediculous. Apparently pgc cannot disagree that winterkill isnt a problem (LOL)(Rediculous!) (LOL). They set the goal of "stabilization" based on the habitat health and herd health. Have a problem with that?? Take it up with them. I happen to agree. Even if the allocation doesnt support that supposed goal.;) I also dont think it fair at all to draw any conclusion based on two deer on one property which equates to one tiny portion of the wmu, which is far from the norm, And im very familiar with the deep valley area. Tons of off limits land. Lots of deer. Not the best habitat in the wmu by far, but far from the worse parts of the state..

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

Dont know if the post on "the other board" was for my benefit,intended to catch my attention. Them knowing full well I am from 2A and argue points in regard to the wmu adamently and vocally, and also that Im an unwelcome antideer plan member of their tainted website. Seems maybeyou/they would like for old Cornelius to arise from the weedbed and take a swipe at the wobbly lure you guys are agressively"trolling", but I aint bitin'.[:'(]...;)

Id say for anyone to ever suggest winterkill in ...(LOL) 2A!!! or herd health currently IS an issue, has alterior motives for making such an asnine claim.

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

Here are the dead deer from Greene County. Obviously no wounds and in the typical position (head back over the shoulder) of deer that died of starvation. Where deer are starving to death without deep winter snows you should know there is a habitat problem, unless you are simply in denial because you don’t want to believe the evidence and facts.

Here are what the person had to say that found them and examined them along with one other comment following the pictures.

“Deer were at Deep Valley...southwestern corner. Lots of deer and little food. They were laying under a pine tree next to a trailer. Cut open their bellies and hardly anything in them and the bone marrow looked like strawberry jelly.

Could pick them up with one hand.”

The first picture shows the red bone marrow. That only occurs indeer that have starved to death.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/Dutch2/deer_pictures_024.jpg" />

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/Dutch2/deer_pictures_008.jpg
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/Dutch2/deer_pictures_003.jpg
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“Why would that surprise you?2A had one of the worst breeding rates for fawns in the state. It also had a higher winter mortality in 2004 than Clearfield county. Wow, Beaver and Somerset counties really had high winter mortality that year. They were a lot worse than Potter, Tioga and Elk counties. Actually, they led the state in winter mortality. I guess it doesn't just happen in the big woods.”

I agree that Greene County probably doesn’t get a lot of winter mortality but the evidence is pointing toward the fact that unit 2A really can’t support many more deer then already exist there.



R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

The herd crashed in 2G because the harvests have exceeded recruitment reducing the herd from 15DPSM in 2000, to 8 DPSM in 2007. Cutting the herd in half results in twice as much food for the remaining deer.
The 2007 AWR shows that the herd in 2G decreased by 23% from 2006 t0 2007, so either you or the PGC professionals are full of it!!

WHO SHOULD HUNTERS BELIEVE, THE PGC or RSB?

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

And WMU 2 G where the herd has been reduced to approx. half it's former DD goal, has the second worst fawn breeding rate in the state ,even though it has the fewest fawns PSM in the state.

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

What facts?? Only facts I see is that you are jumping to conclusions as to why 2 young deer died during extreme conditions. Deer can and do die due to lack of thermal cover, especially ones that havent accumulated a good coat of fat, for whatever reason. They dont have to have died from being "wounded" I spoke of that because that is an undeniable contributor to some winterkill. THere are many "internal" conditions that can contribute to winter death. WHen you take 10's of thousands of people, some are gonna be less healthythan others and deer are nodifferent.

I read that on the other site. Not unusual to be able to pick up afawnwith one hand, especially a late born even when healthy. Though I dont doubt deer in late winter are much lighter.;)

Quote:

---

“Why would that surprise you?2A had one of the worst breeding rates for fawns in the state. It also had a higher winter mortality in 2004 than Clearfield county. Wow, Beaver and Somerset counties really had high winter mortality that year. They were a lot worse than Potter, Tioga and Elk counties. Actually, they led the state in winter mortality. I guess it doesn't just happen in the big woods.”

---

Ahh, yes, our always anti-deer friend DOUGLAS adding his two cents. Perhaps he should read the annual report. Despite fawn breeding rates, the overall health did NOT rate as poor and the goal was to STABILIZE the deer herd. Or so we were told. That is based on acceptable health of both herd and habitat.;)

I dont necessarily agree, however it doesnt matter. Im not asking for many more. In fact, at this point, Id be happy if the allocation allowed the supposed stabilization we had supposedly been undergoing. Id liketo see some slight growth permitted to help along the ehd hit areas (which arehave recovered a bit, but FAR from pre-ehd levels) and also to undo just a bit of the hr that has undoubtedly taken placethe last few years, when we werentsupposed to be reducing....I have concerns also for other areas of the state, perhaps a bit more herd increase could be had in some, other areasperhaps same deal as 2A.

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

I cant believe that anyone is even questioning that statement! If you have the same amount of food as previously with half the deer, you have DOUBLE the food per deer! And if you add in the fact that at least SOME habitat improvement is claimed to have taken place since 2000 in 2G, then you have even more than double the food you had previously per deer!!!

I Dont know why you would ever make the belowstatement RSB, maybe just didnt give it much thought before posting, but I assure you, you are wrong.

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

Were those deer checked for EHD? That's where the outbreak was before.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/Dutch2/deer_pictures_024.jpg" />

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/Dutch2/deer_pictures_008.jpg
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/Dutch2/deer_pictures_003.jpg
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RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

Funny to see on "the other site' a few enviromentalist extremists practically begging for more doe tags for 2A. That being in a wmu that is far below cc, half the ow deer as we had previously, a wmu where the cac didnt vote for less deer and felt the herd was on a reducing trend....A wmu where some of the best habitat in the state exists.... A wmu where Pgc themselves have deemed supposedly that we didnt have too many deer...

Yet a couple of eco-extremeist folks are crying for more tags in 2A to save the habitat and the birds and all else that is holy! (LOL)(LOL)

Speaking of completely rediculous. One said he saw the habitat degraded in the 80's, apparently he had no clue because the herd in 2Awasnt even near its all time high in the 80's. Also, one joker spoke of allocations not being effective in the wmu because its largely private. Unfortunately for his lack of logic, the wmu has been significantly reduced and that isnt even debatable.

Then our compadre Dougie, says that we had way too many deer and now hunters are crying because of the reduction. No dougie, sorry, but hunters dont like the direction was are continuing in. Hunters are NOT crying because we dont have 100 dpsm. Hunters are concerned because we have one third that and are continuing the reduction with far too many tags, even though pgc has claimed otherwise for the last 4 years.;)

Unreal.[:'(](LOL)...Absolutely unbelievable. Thats whathappens when some of ourfellowhunters are embracing "environmentalists" and their views. You get rediculously extreme deer management ideology based on distorted nonhunter friendly agendas. Another maleffect these people now have open stage forums for the extremist voice to be heard via hunting message sites as well as through a couple of hunting organizations that take in nonhunting conservationists.

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

from our feeder sighting on our trail cameras,our feeders are set up about 2 miles apart or so on SPROUL in clinton county.

NUMBERS OF DEER ARE ABOUT 4 AVG AT EACH FEEDER,1 feeder near privateland had 6 deer on pictures.
only 1 fawn so far has been shown in 3 feeders at 3 different locations with about a 6 mile area.

most of deer look like 1.5 to 2 yr old deer.

1 doe was over 2 yr old .

almost all fed at 8 to 9pm ,then again at 4 to 6 am each day.

not 1 buck is shown at any of our locations, so far.

my MOULTIRE I-40 can take a picture of heads real good, i put it up high so it shoots down on tops of heads.

all deer look very healthy too me,real big butts and no ribs showing.;)

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

when someone can get 5 /6 or 7 deer ,all legal here in pa.

something is wrong with system.

if the PGC wants respect, with the numbers of deer left in wmu2g,1 deer and your done would be one direction for them to take.

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

5/6/7 deer is way to many[:@]

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

EHD is a warm weather occurance, Caused by small mite biting the deer.

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

While that is true, it is also true that small late born fawns are always the most vulnerable to winter mortality due to severe winter conditions.

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

Throw in tapeworm or roundworm and/or heavy load of other parasite....Keds etc. Especially with fawns, even moreso late born...and they are pretty much doomed from the get go.

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

RSB was on line for more than an hour this evening, and he had no response to any of our comments. I wonder why?

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

Probably because there was nothing worth responding to that hasn't been addressed a dozen or more times previously

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

I've been waiting for the data he said he would post that would prove the breeding rate didn't decrease by 5%. I guess he couldn't find it.

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

You'll have to give him a day or two, it takes time to manipulate data to back up a lie. Now take BTB, I wish some body would, he backs everything up with a horse.

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

Asked and answered ad nauseum. No one is required to answer you differently simply because you refuse to accept the real facts.

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

I agree you provided the wrong answer ad nauseum, but wrong answers don't count,so try one more time to get it right.

RE: How should Wildlife Management be funded?
 

I’ve addressed the nonsense you post enough for anyone willing to accept facts and logic to see how far off track you are. I try to avoid the back and forth insults that get thrown around and much prefer to just post the facts that allow everyone to decide on their own what makes sense and what doesn’t.

I learned a long time ago that with some people the best thing to do is to just allow them to keep on doing their thing. Usuallywhen they are on a misguided mission they will do more harm to themselves then anyone else can cause them. I think you have been doing quite well atproving your bias and misguided agenda without my repeatedly pointing it out to everyone.

Besides many others have very adequately pointed out how biased and opinionated you are without me adding to it. Plus, sometimes I just come in and read the posts and then have other things that need done.

R.S. Bodenhorn