rsb you made some good points most can agree with i think some are still mad over the flying leap commet


btb i agree with your earlier post but think some of what bluebird says might just hold some water

R.S.B & Others:
PGC funding has been a huge issue for years yet there has been no significant liscense increase? I can still buy my non-res. pa hunting liscense 19.00$ cheaper than i can get my res. Va liscense. Here i purchase what they call a sportsmans liscense for 120.00$ This includes res. state liscense,,,archery,,,muzzle loader stamps,,game stamps(6 deer tags,,a bear tag,,,and 3 turkey tags) resident fresh water fishing liscense and a trout stamp and i feel this is very inexpensive for 7 mos.(hunting opportunity) of enjoyment. I also pay an additional 4.00$ fee for the priviledge of using state game lands.I feel thatsome Pa. sportsman hold the PGC too accountable for the amount of money their being charged especially in terms of whitetail mgmt.Would a liscense increase help the PGC ,,,,or would the guys bitching about the increase outweigh the benefits?

What if Pa. came up with a Hunting liscense that you could walk into wal-mart and purchase that included small game, 1 buck, 1 doe, a turkey,and a bear tag for a certain fee and then sell additional antlerless tags for( 20.00$) a piece to be used on private land only?I look at this as solving two problems, 1) PGC recieves additional funding for wildlife mgmt. purposes and 2) It holds the hunter responsible for how many deer their killing on their lands.

Dont get me wrong,,,i feel that the PGC should also be funded by the state from a general fund or such for the reasons posted earlier like bear trapping and road kills,,,but having family living and working in Pa. affords me the knowledge of knowing how tight folks are when it comes to being taxed(im one of the biggest complainers there).

R.S.B im one of your biggest fans on here and i love reading your posts,,,i feel like i get alot of insight & knowledgefrom your standpoint,,even if i dont agree with everything you write. (i must say that when i disagree,,it's due to opinion and not fact)

Thanks

Doug,

Explorer Jack is right. Those are R.S.B. words. He did say that and it is an indication of what is in his heart. With freinds like that you don't need enemies. Is ole' Dick'y boy going to come on here and try and deny it?

You need a reallity check Doug!

RSB just loves to blame the hunters for the poor habitat in 2G , but the facts tell a different story. According to the PGC WMU 2G was at its gaol of 15 DPSM before Alt implemented the current HR plan.

Then look at the difference in the densities in 2F compared to 2G. Did the hunters in 2F prevent the PGC from reducing the herd in 2F or was the PGC responsible for the difference.

RSB

Thanks for your thoughts in the preceding lenghty post.

I'll apologize in advance for the length of this response

On the subject of combining the PFBC and PGC, you bring up some issues thatmany, mysel included, may not have considered. IMHO, any merging of the two agencies should leave the field personnell pretty much the way it is. The cross training issues you raise make sense. On the other hand, an old friend of mine whohas since passed on was a waterways patrolman in Forest County. He assisted the WCO's or DGP's as they were called in those days in his "off season" by acting as a deputy or an assistant to the WCO. He gave me the impression that the two agencies regualrly helped each other out when one was more busy than the other. I would think we could keep the specialization among field officers intact under a combined agency. My case for combining the two is more about headquarters, admin I&E, licensing and exectutive offices. Surely we could identify substantial duplication in those areas and save money while being more effective at the same time. Lets face it, any time a government agency faces the idea of reorganization, combining or streamlining, we are going to see resistance to change because peoples comfort levels get threatened. It happens in any business butis even more likely in the public sector. Both agencies arealready downsizing staff by attrition and perhaps both could benefit froma merger.The fact that the two agencies started seperate and that its been that way a long time isn't sufficient reason for either to resist the idea of considering a merger. BTW, I'd rather see PGC and PFBC take the initiative now rather than have a governor mandate a DCNR/PGC/PFBC merger whenthey start taking general state funds.


As for the crossbow issue, I understand why you may not want to get too deep into that one. I will say again, this one is not personal with me as far as the weapon goes. It is personal as far as the BOC's degree of arrogance. I realize that it was a decision made essentially by 4 people but it was quite possibly one of the stupidest moves the BOC could have made at this time. At a time when they need to keep every friend they have, they took a serious dump on a strong friendship. Apparently that friendship wasn't important to those 4 BOC members. I also find it especially appalling that the owner of a sporting goods store would not be asked to abstain from a vote thatstands toobviously produce personalfinacial gainfor him.

The UBP enjoys a small but very politically active core group as its membership. Last I looked, btw, the membership number was substantially larger than the USP. If this had been an issue of science, I would not be saying a word and, I trust, neither would the UBP. But it was not. It was purely a social issue and the BOC may have really shot themselves in the foot on this one. They alienated a friend that has the capability to be at least as big if not a bigger thorn in their side than the USP fanatics. Imagine for a moment,if, as a few here have implied, that the UBP threw their arms in the air and filed a suit of their ownor joined forces with USP. I doubt that will happen but who could blame them?

You said
Perhaps it wont be the problem we envisioned but what if it does become that big? Even with the sunset clause, if it does present problems it will be because of widespread use and this will bean infinitely bigger battle the second time around. Besides,that kind of smacks as a "they'll get overit eventually " mentality which is just as irritating.


Now the big one, who should fund the PGC in the future?

First, apology accepted for the "flying leap" comments. I also wish to take this opportunity to recant my emotionally charged suggestion that maybe it's time for another line of work. We're all human andentitled to our personal feelings and tend to get emotional when it's something we care about deeply. I do agree that you are on here on your own time and for that, I thank you. On the other hand, you have identified yourself and your position to this forum and that mere fact makes you an ambassador for the agency when you post here, like it or not.I acknowledge I have posted some far more incendiary statements on here from time to timebut they were directed as rifle shots not shotgun blasts. I'm also not an officer of any agency or any organization at this time.

You make some valid points when it comes to the nongame efforts and expenditures the PGC incurrs. It does seem right for the public to pay that part of the bills. You also have an excellent point regarding thedecline in our numbers. All our best efforts will still only slow down the bleeding.
If I take the grand total I spend on PA resident licenses, stamps, and doe and DMAP tags in a year, it still wouldn't buyme one good seat at a Steelers or Penguins game.BTW, I give the Illinois DNR well over $700 everyyear as a nonresident and thats just to hunt deer!Are the satisfied hunters out there being vocalenough? Nope. But thats always been human nature. Guys that are happy tend to simply not complain. Hell, if it werent for Bluebird and a few others posting big lies on here and getting me irritated with those distortions, I wouldn't post near as often as I do. I think you and I both know that we can'treasonably place blame on those who don't complain for the problems.Whether we like it or not, it's the PGC's job and the job of concerned sportsmen to get the message outand get the hunting public behind a method of adequately fundingthe agency. That means an effort on all fronts including not pissing off their benefactors with unnecessary, unscientific, ill timed votes that go directly against popular opinion. It also means, selling the science when good management may be less than widely welcomed. Gary Alt did a great sales job, I believe he overstated his case and promised too much but it was a program that needed selling.Unfortunately he thenslapped us with more harm in theend than we could have imagined. Remember, I'm talking image and PR here, not what he did with deer management. Had he been more truthful and realistic in the beginning, it would have been a tougher sell but we wouldn't be experiencing the backlash we now face. He also went way out of line with his parting comments IMHO.

All that being said, I personally would still rather pay the whole bill as a hunter. I strongly fear that once we take general funds, the PETA types will demand a voice. Perhaps even seek a seat on the BOC and once we've taken money from the general public, that may not be preventable. The only way I'd be comfortable with bringing in outside money is if it were designated specifically and exclusively for nongame programs. Maybe thats possible maybe not. But it's one way tokeep making the case for hunting issues to be decided by those who truly have hunting, as well as the resources, best interests at heart.

I'm sure that you're quite correct bowtruck. Even a blind pig finds an acorn once in awhile. Heck, even a stopped watch is right twice a day!

I qualify what I say here by first saying that while I believe in much of what the PGC is doing, I formed those opinions of my own accord and am certainly not a spokesman for the PGC. Some of my recent postings should serve to support that statement.


Bluebird has seemingly infinite patience in sifting through data and I'm sure he finds some valid points from time to time. Theproblem is that he has demonstrated no room for compromise and seldom if ever has anything but negatives to present. Always a miriad of problems with nary a solution. He has one mission and one only. That is to discredit the PGC and all it does. He has yet to offer anything positive, only harsh criticism and most often he presents it in an unfair, twisted distorted fashion designed to fit his agenda.

For example, in another thread currently on here, a WCO offered his assistance to communicate with local sportsmens groups by attending their meetings. Bluebirds response? "Don't bother because you'll just hear PGC propaganda" Bluebird doesn't want an open dialogue.Yoo gotta worry about someone who doesnt want folks to hear both sides.He just wants a soapbox to scream from and he often resorts to lies and distortions to make his case.

He also constantly dismisses the research and findings of respected wildlife professionals from all over this world, not just Pa guys, claiming "they don't understand their own data" How can we possibly take someone like that seriously?

It's a shame he won't utilize his talents and tenacity to try to do somethingconstructive.

BTB,

You're as bad as Doug. You need a reallity check too. That big long love letter was nothing more than reiteration of what he originally said except in longer more drawn out version.

And, I don’t work for you. I work for the resources and all of the Citizens of this Commonwealth.

If hunters don’t want to pay for wildlife management there are many others that do care about wildlife that will be very willing to demand that wildlife management be funded through general tax dollars.

I am becoming more and more convinced that wildlife management would be better off if we worked from the general fund and told hunter to take a flying leap with their money.

And you fell for it because you really don't want to believe any differently. Then what do you do? You come up with your own little love letter. Well, I hope you all kissed and made up now.

Your opinion. Your entitled to it.

The one place youre dead wrong is thatI'm NOBODY's yes man.

If you cant see that I'm no PGC drone in the last few pages, your elementary school reading teachers need to be fired.

RSB,the majority of hunters are not hiding as you say or not being vocal.

they are MINIORITY.

very few like the PGC/DCNR.most are vocal against PGC.

a lot are none hunters too.

only ones that are for PGC is ones that want to go somewhere up ladder.

some of these people have positions in sportsmans clubs because they want to get a position with elk group or always were people that like to suck up.
well, that backfired with a few i know too

most dont hate a WCO but hate the direction the PGC /DCNRhas gone in overharvest of doe and fawns.

now UBP they spit on.USP they spit on.

who will be next.

or as i spoke on deer and turned my back and watched my fellow sportsman sneak out the door saying outside,its all cut and dried.

there is your non vocal hunters, they always were cowards and suck a........

"I have respect for you and all other hunters that aren’t set on dismantling the proper and scientific management of the resources or intend on using financial black mail to drive the professional back to doing the wrong thing for the future because they think they know more then the professionals. "

Believe me, the level of respect goes both ways. Also, other states biologists know as much if not more than Pas and they seem to do a fine job with high approval in most cases. Fact is, most arent run by radical ecoweineys. Fact isnt debatable. There are OTHER more hunter friendly ways that would be 100% more beneficial and every bit as "scientific an proper" as currently that would far exceed the benefit of the current ecoflake catering plan.


"First of all it is no secret that we are losing hunters all across the nation. "

And no secret whyrateof decline has been higher in Pa than the national average. Double from 2001 to 2006

"With ever rising costs and ever declining hunter numbers we all knew the day would come when hunters alone could no longer fund the needs of sound wildlife management. The only question has always been just when that day would arrive."

SO pgc greately expedited the process, which also coincidentally benefit pgc new tree hugging buddiesvisions of abiodiverity disney like nirvannah.

"So how did it get to this point? Well in my opinion it has reached this point because of political blackmail that has come from a small but vocal minority of our hunters. But, too many of the good hunters have stood back and allowed that vocal minority to carry the day, so they aren’t without blame either."

There is noblackmail. The system was set up asis for a reason. And I think we ALL know why that was. To prevent corruption and asnine totally irresponsible direction from taking place due to outside influence. Thats EXACTLY whats happening.and the HUGE majority does not support hr as its been implement. And a HUGE majority would like to see smaller wmus and other tweaks...and as always they are ignore by pgc. Thats the FACTS.

"But blame or even the political blackmail isn’t even the real issue of what caused me to change my mind on general funds or some other funding method. I would actually prefer a percentage of the a dedicated annual tax base to be used for wildlife management funding in conjunction with the hunting license fees with a build in COLA. "

Sure it is for you. Its ALL about preventing the possibility of change. That what your misguided support of the "cola" is all about, what your comments of blackmail are all about and your nonsense about alternate funding... Its all about having the hunter as far removed from the decision making as possible and thats b.s. when so many other influences are already far stronger than our own. Your rediculous fantasy of this rogue "independent" agency also having a pocket book with no keeper (which is basically what you are asking for) is rediculous and not even worthy of discussion. How about you leave me the keys to your house, your vehicle and all your belongings for amonth when your away? Thats about what you are asking us to do. Turn over the keys to pgc with NO ability to challenge ANYTHING with the ability to withhold license increases or any other funding restriction or any other fraud or mismanagement preventing measures. That is ASNINE to the 100th degree.[:'(]...btw, your stuff wouldve been safe with me. Im trustworthy. So Id think a bettermore accurate depictionwould be givingyour keys to some crook. I think you can draw the parellells. I think Id rather give my keys to the crook than give complete 100% unanswering power over ourgame to pgc, expecially considering who is running the show these days.

"Every citizen of this Commonwealth, hunter or not, has a voice in how wildlife or the habitat is managed and that isn’t going to change. It is only going to become more pronounced."

Not so subtlely stated, for anyone who cant read between those linesas "hunters further removed from decision making than theyalready are".




"Why shouldn’t everyone pay for that management? "



Because, especially right now, due to reasons we are all aware of,the pros FAR underweigh the cons of that scenario.

"Yes states that work from their state’s general fund do have times when they have budget cuts. But, none of them are going ten or more years without an increase in their funding budget either as we have historically have had to do here in Pennsylvania and then have still have to backslide in sound wildlife to get even a modest increase that we can’t spend any way because we know we have to save anything we can just to survive the next round of refusals to grant a desperately needed increase. "

Loosely translated as, Rsb believes his employer is pigheaded and will not responsibly manage the deer herd and make needed change. And if they do adjust allocations and tweak thingsto get one fee increase now, it will be antideer business as usualthe very nextyear. And the next license increase after, will be necessary to slaughter a couple less deer for one year once again. Only way to keep the herd at current levels EVERY year and ignore the hunters and stay the ecoagenda course is to: Stop the responsible check and balance system, and trust pgc blindly with a basically blank check in the form of our tax money as well as a license fee increase with a cola! That is not only RSBs wish, but pgcs overall, and if you look at audubons website you will seethe exact same plan demanded. They can shove that notion where the sun don't shine.

"We typically have to start major program cuts five or more years before we get a license increase. "

BULL****! Pgc STILL has plenty of money money surplus (see financial reports)and didnt need to cut back yet, even after 10 years!!!. They did so make meager "cuts" because they wish to ward off the war of attrition...Basically saying We don't have to listen to anyone "yet" and if we save "X" amount of dollars and always havemoney for 5 years ahead surpluswe can fend off the hunters and legislators at least for the next few years any time we need to... AND THATS PURE BULL****! A blatant slap in the face to us all.

Also, Its been a helluva lot longer than5 yearsand pgc is still motoring along with meager "cutting back". And if they were in such dire straights now, after around twice that long!!! That points one heck of a exclamation point on their complete IRRESPONSIBILITY for allowing the degrade to continue, when the fix is simple and painless (to anyone other than a tiny minority of completely antideer ecoflakes.)

"That day has to come when hunters realize they can no longer fund sound of even good wildlife management programs and practices without outside funding of some kind. "

Maybe....Maybe not. Fact is, that day is FAR from now. Currently there is one problem and it doesnt need outside funding to fix. We need an vermin exterminator at Elmerton avenue.

"There are different ways of getting there but fighting and stomping our feet isn’t going to be the way to finding the best ways. "

Getting where??? (LOL) Sorry, buddy, but for YOUR trip, the only passengers are ECOFLAKES and DCNR. (which overlap quite a bit as well)