Predators and deer
 

What is the estimate number of coyotes,bobcats and bears combined total for PA state. Any guesses on this from your officials there? I read in 2005 that over 20,000 coyotes alone was taken by trappers and hunters. That is a huge predator force just for coyotes in that state alone. That number I would think would yield 60,000 live ones easy. Take into consideration how many deer they kill alone,especially fawns is mind boggling. Now coyotes give birth to 3 to 9 pups a year. Your deer herd is going to be wiped out if you all don't do some serious reevaluation of how you manage it.
When you have a predator like the coyote that gives birth at a much higher numbers and rate than deer,Its not hard to figure out what is going to happen. Especially when the eastern coyotes are2.5 times larger than the western coyote. They have to eat2.5 times more than theirwestern cousins.

RE: Predators and deer
 

more yote hunters and more yote derbys

RE: Predators and deer
 

Still wouldn't accomplish it. You need to have them hunted and trapped 24/7/365 to might make a bit of difference.

RE: Predators and deer
 

A couple years ago i would hear a pack of coyotes almost every night after hunting. The last 3 years I have not heard a single coyote in the area I hunt. However the bear numbers have really been increasing the last 2 or 3 years. I don't know if the bears are driving the coyotes out of the area or not. I am see more bear every year and where their is bear sign their seems to be little deer sign. I have also tried hunting coyotes probably 40 times but haven't seen any. I saw one back in June chasing a fawn while driving on the mountain roads. These eastern coyotes are very smart and I think it will be a large challenge to keep the coyotes in check.

RE: Predators and deer
 

2 options for deer herd. Kill the predators or don't have a doe season.I really can't see any other options for states like NY and PA.The hunterscombined with predators I do believe is going to wipe the deer out. The numbers are there as proof. Where the hunters can't access private land,the predators will. They will stay where the largest foodsupply is untill it is gone.

RE: Predators and deer
 

I think you could benefit by becoming more aware of the real relationships between predator and prey.

Prey control the predator populations just as much as the other way around. Both are a benefit to the other. It might even be that the increase in predators is helping the deer learn to better avoid being a hunter harvest or even being seen by hunters?

Here is a link to get you started.


http://biology.about.com/od/ecology/a/defensemechan.htm


R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: Predators and deer
 

I think to fix the deer populations the PGC has to get rid of the WMUs and go back to counties for allocating licenses. One part of a WMU could be overpopulated with deer while another part of the same WMU may have almost no deer. The WMUs cover way to much of an area. Does anyone know why the PGC made the change? I think this a big reason for the deer heard decline.

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Can it bevery possiblethat atleast 75,000 deer are killed by predators alone in PA each year? Take in all the predators in the wild not counting people or.

RE: Predators and deer
 

that would save the doe, no way PGC/DCNR would want that.

plus, douge would not get his 6 doe each year if thats done:)

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biggest predator is hunter with a pocket full of doe tags/dmap tags and a new floor model freezer.

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Without a doubt sproulman. Are these considerations taken into the deer management programs? If you got the natural predators along with humans,Are the deer herds being managed properly? There is a 4 to 1 predator ratio in the state of PA. Coyote,bear,bobcat and human against deer.

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Don't forget about mountain lions. They could be the biggest threat of all.

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I agree. Man by far is more distructive than any coyote. We have alot of coyotes here in NY. For years hunters have been saying that coyotes are killing all of the deer. Hunters are still killing multible deer each season and does still have fawns at their side. They sure are blind!! The one and onlybiggest threat to our deer herd is over browsing of winter feed.

RE: Predators and deer
 

Halleluiah, there is at least one person on this board that knows what the real problem is.

The biggest threat to the deer herd is the deer herd getting to large for their food supply. It has been the hunter that allowed that to happen in too many areas. The reason we have so many deer predators today is because man failed to control the deer populations so predators have increased to accomplish what man has failed or simply refused to do.

The sad part is that when we allow nature to control populations those populations nearly always stabilize at low levels instead of high or even mid range population levels. If hunters were just smart enough to allow the professionals to do their jobs instead of undermining everything they do we could have and would have more deer in most areas then we have today.

I also highly suspect the interference from hunters is going to result in even fewer deer for the future.

R.S. Bodenhorn

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i dont think cougars here in pa. are much of threat to deer,i believe we only have few of them;)

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rsb,as TRUE GRIT said to TEXAN,TOO MUCH GUN.

right or wrong, i say,TOO MANY DOE TAGS IN WMU2G

RE: Predators and deer
 

How many is it?

RE: Predators and deer
 

IF THE BROWSE IS BAD AND AFFECTS THE FAWNS.

IF THE COYOTES/BEARS KILL WHAT FAWNS MAKE IT.

if the DCNR does not want deer, only trees.

IF HUNTERS KEEP KILLING OFF WHAT DOE ARE LEFT IN WMU2G.

how will deer numbers ever increase to dpsm that is normal,i think i read 9/10 is normal but we have maybe 3 dpsm now in much of clinton county.:eek:

THEN HOW ARE DEER NUMBERS TO INCREASE :eek:

RE: Predators and deer
 

without the prey, the predators will not be there and the habitat will not support the population size of the predators...plain and simple.

deer hunters hunt where deer are because they want to kill a deer...same with the predators...they live and roam and hunt where they can find their food....

just like they did out west years ago killing all the wolves and such thinking it would make "hunters paradise" the deer population exploded and crashed due to starvation and disease....mother nature will take care of her own if humans do not help in forms noone wants to see like starvation and disease.

the predators just keep the populations in check....they arent going to whipe out anything because if/when they do, they also whipe their own food source out...they arent dumb.......and predators prey on alot more than just deer! deer are large, fast animals. predators only take the weak/sick deer for the most part...as well as some fawns...why chase a deer around for hours and burn tons of energy when you can hunt mice or chipmunks or rabbits or birds etc etc etc that are much easier to come by than a deer that can run as fast or faster than the hunter.....

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i think its more than some fawns from what i hear in june 15th area.

i agree with you, they usually dont bother adult doe but i have pictrures of 2 coyotes on my deskthat went after a fawn with her mother this fall in oct.


i wish i could find article of well known hunter that works forredhead group at bass pro.

he was from lock haven and had article on finding 20 somthingfawns in den,i think it was 26 fawns in 1 den.


i just cant find it, it was in paper here at one time, like 5 years ago.

RE: Predators and deer
 

From my readings,Fawn survival doubled when coyotes was removed from the area. This was also the case with black bears being removed from the area also where fawns was born. K9s have excellent smell and can seek out these new borns quite easy.So their defence doesn't work to well on coyotes as they would on bear.
It's enough charlie to say that when the coyotes was removed from fawning areas the fawn survival doubled.

Also coyotes will kill fox and bobcats that are in their area to protect the food supply. In NY where coyotes are,you see very little fox sign any more. They will attempt to kill every fox and bobcat they see.

RE: Predators and deer
 

I beleive the coyotes will only breed enough to sustain the pack wqelfare and not overbreed as say a wild pig. I beleive you when you say no fox or bobcats when coyotes are around. The are the smartest animals in the woods today. I love hunting them, but do not beleive we will ever kill them all out of existence. They are a fabric of our outdoor traditions now!

RE: Predators and deer
 

After a year old,The pups are kicked out to establish their new home and breed. They will continue to breed as domestic dogs do.

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What are they? I'd like to check it out.

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Where can we find this information you're talking about???

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bob, you find anything on that READHEAD hunter from pa. on fawn legs

RE: Predators and deer
 

http://bowsite.com/bowsite/features/articles/deer/seminars/coyotes/

Where deer densities are too high and hunting pressure light, the coyotes are actually doing the deer herd a favor by taking out a few deer. On the other hand, where we have deer populations less than 10 deer per square mile, coyotes may have a negative impact.

I will find the other read in a bit. I need to get something done first here.

RE: Predators and deer
 

No,because it's a flat out lie.Coyotes do not take carcuses back to den sites.In order for a coyote to bring in 26 fawns,it would have to kill every fawn in a radius several miles around.Thats an urban legend and one inwhich the pictures never seen to surface.

There's tons and tons of coyotes inthe midwest.How much an effect do they have on the fawns?

Read the fawn study journal.Coyotes and bears did indeed kill fawnsat about the same rate.They were responsible for about 50% of the fawn mortality in the Quehanna area.They didn't kill 50% of the fawns like some in the USP have tried to say.Fawn predation is not a huge factor but it's a bigger factor in areas where the habitat is poor.

RE: Predators and deer
 

50 % of fawns born are killed by predators in the BIG WOODS like western clinton county.

near farms,say for example, like farms near beech creek, the predators kill 8% of fawns born.

bears/coyotes are bigone.

this may be one of reasonswhy i have fawns in my yard each year but see very few in woods.:(

RE: Predators and deer
 

douge, why would someone make up fib like that.

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OR WHERE THERE ARE FEW DEER,LIKE WMU2G

douge, ERIC GESE state biolgist on coyotes at yellowstone park said,HE FOUND DEER CALF BONES IN 3 COYOTE DENS;)

RE: Predators and deer
 

nat geo channel had show Yellowstone showing how they had all coyotes ,foxes, predators
taken out the population exploded of all the other wildlife they had over 2000 bisen starve to death
elk and deer all in one winter good show my enlighten some ppl

RE: Predators and deer
 

yes, did you see where he said that 3 dens had deer calfs in dens.

hey douge,yooooooooooo,douge:)

RE: Predators and deer
 

When the female gives birth the male does hunt for her. So yes they will take animal parts back to the den for the pups. And the timing of this is around the time does give birth. Also about the bear and coyote, I would have to say now that we have 5 times as many yotes as we do bears.So coyotes would now do more damage to the fawn population than bear does.

RE: Predators and deer
 

http://www.wvdnr.gov/hunting/CoyoteResearch.shtm

Studies in Texas have shown that the coyote’s diet consists of 70% fawns during June and July.


Predator-prey relationships between the white-tailed deer and the coyote have been extensively studied. The coyote is a significant predator of deer fawns. Studies in Texas have shown that the coyote’s diet consists of 70% fawns during June and July. Sheep predation by coyotes is known to drop drastically when fawns are born around the first of June. The synchronous birth of fawns in June allows the numbers of fawns to overwhelm the predators, and although a large number of fawns are taken during the first month of the fawns’ lives, they become relatively secure after about one month. During winter predation again picks up and deer again become the main diet of coyotes. Although the coyote takes healthy adult deer during the winter, winter killed and wounded deer as well as carcasses and offal from hunting season probably make up the bulk of the winter diet.


In Maine, food habitat studies showed that white-tailed deer made up 50-60% of the coyote’s diet, and this predation had the potential to have significant negative effects on the deer herd. Coyote predation in the high mountain areas of West Virginia with lower deer populations and severe winters is likely to have more effect on the deer herd than in areas with higher deer populations.

RE: Predators and deer
 

Sproul,read the fawn study journal.Out of all the fawns that were collared,none neded up ina coyote den.They don't do that.

Here's a quote from Wisconsin's DNR.Oneway you can tell a fox den from a coyotes den is by the tidiness inside and around the entrance.Unlike foxes,adult coyotes remove bones and other debris so tyhese materials don't accumulate in or around the edges of the den.

RE: Predators and deer
 

In a fawn survival study in Centre County Pennsylvania during 2000-2001, 218 fawns were radioed and followed with telemetry equipment. Of these fawns, predators killed 22 percent, the leading source of mortality. Of the fawns killed by predators, most were killed by coyotes (49%) and bears (43%). Nearly 50% of all mortality occurred during the month of June, with 18 percent and 16 percent in July and August. It was interesting to note that 84 percent of fawn predation occurred on one of two study areas. This probably illustrates the difference in predation rates due to localized coyote populations.

So with your HR,I would think that 50% of fawns are killed by predators.

RE: Predators and deer
 

Coyotes can and occasionally will prey on a fox though it appears to be an extremely rare occurrence. The real reason fox numbers, both red and gray, tend to decline when the coyote numbers increase is simply because they use the same prey base and since the coyote is a larger and more skilled predator he out competes the fox for both the prey base and the no prey food supply. Then since nature guarantees that no population can exceed its food supply for more then short term periods or ideal conditions the fox populations naturally decline. That has nothing to do with predation and is strictly a result of completion for the available food supply.

Coyotes do NOT out compete the bobcat. In this part of the state we had lots of coyotes and few bobcats ten to twenty years ago. Now we have continuously increasing bobcat numbers and it seems that the coyote numbers have declined with the increasing bobcat populations. The bobcat is a very equal predator to the coyote even though they do share some of the same prey base. Coyotes are not going to tangle with or try to prey on a bobcat unless it is a very young unprotected one.

Adult to adult I suspect the bobcat would win out in a fight with a coyote, but those battles are extremely rare in wild populations since predators almost never want to enter into any fight where there is even a remote chance of being injured. They instinctively know that an injury, even a minor one, likely means death. They aren’t going to put their life at risk unless things are in a very desperate state toward their own survival.

As for the nose on a coyote or any other predator it simply doesn’t matter when it comes to fawns. The fawns have no scent distinguishable to a predator for the early stages of their life. That is why after they have nursed they walk off and lay down to hide while the doe walks off in a different direction. The predators can track the does, by scent, and they do sometimes do that hoping to get into the right area to stumble onto a fawn. If they do they kill it but it was simply because the fawn failed to remain hidden or the predator got lucky and just stumbled upon the fawn. By the time fawns are leaving scent they can generally outrun a predator.

R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: Predators and deer
 

http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/article/CoyoteKill/

Noonan said a good example of how coyote control can benefit deer is what happened on the Gaspe Peninsula in Quebec, just north of the Maine border. In 1986, had a healthy herd of about 15,000 whitetails, and a low coyote population.

However, after several consecutive harsh winters — and extensive clear-cutting that eliminated traditional yarding areas — coyotes got the upper hand and wreaked havoc on the deer population.

By 1991, researchers estimated that only 500 deer remained on the peninsula. To save the herd, the province banned deer hunting, implemented strict logging regulations and implemented an aggressive coyote snaring program.

According to Noonan, 80 trappers were trained to snare coyotes, and they were instructed to focus their efforts on 80 percent of the remaining deer yards.

The plan worked. In just three years, the trappers caught 1,500 coyotes. Deer numbers rebounded, and by 1999, the peninsula had a population of more than 2,000 whitetails.

However, the coyote problem didn’t end there. When the snaring program was stopped for two years, the coyote population rebounded, and the deer population again decreased.

As a result, the peninsula instituted a subsidized trapping program that is still used today.

RE: Predators and deer
 

I read that study and it's a differen tsituation.Those deer are yarded up and they're sitting ducks.

In Quehanna 69% of the fawn mortality was from predators.That's noteven close to 50% being killed by predators.