RE: Predators and deer
 

SGL252 has best habitat a deer could ever have but very few deer .open to public

yet 5 miles away, land is private and my friend said he saw 125 deer there .but closed to public.:eek:

RE: Predators and deer
 

Abosutely the correct and only answer. I seen the tag numbers and the areas in general. There is no other reason.
How many deer was harvested from that area? They are trying like hell to lower the deer herd in the metro areas and are giving out outrages number of tags. Now the areas that have these large doe tags given out,Are these the areas that allow baiting of deer to draw the animals off of posted areas?

That was for the south eastern part of the state near philly.
Maybe this year they will promote this to the south western part of the state.

One more thing to ask, How in the world can the deer herd survive if the land wasn't posted when 59,000 tags was given out each year for how many years? No way does food supply have anything to do with it. It does not add up one bit. It is because of the limited acces as bluebird said.

RE: Predators and deer
 

Is there another area that has so called good habitat as around the Pittsburgh area? And what are those numbers of deer harvested and the amount of doe tags given out for those areas for comparison?

RE: Predators and deer
 

2006 Harvest Data and antlerless allocations expressed in DPSM

Rank………WMU……..Ant’less……….Antler ed……….Total harvest……..lic/ant’less

1……………2B…………12.11………….4. 26…………….16.36……………..4.12
2……………2A………….9.39…………..4 .47…………….13.86……………..3.24
3……………2D………….8.20…………..4 .38…………….12.59……………..2.75
4……………5C………….7.42…………..3 .55…………….10.97……………..4.91
5……………1A………….7.15…………..3 .14…………….10.29……………..3.18
6……………2E…………..5.87………….. 4.28…………….10.15……………..2.84
7……………3A………….5.84…………..2 .98………………8.82……………..3.30
8……………1B………….5.67…………... 3.21……………...8.88……………..2.50
9……………4E………….5.19…………... 2.36……………...7.55……………..4.22
10…………..4C………….4.91…………..3 .37………………8.28……………..4.38
11…………..5D………….4.91…………..1 .56………………6.46……………..4.88
12…………..3B………….4.71…………..2 .89………………7.60……………..4.06
13…………..4A………….4.49…………..3 .40………………7.89……………..3.72
14…………..3C………….4.26…………..3 .10………………7.37……………..2.93
15…………..4B………….4.16…………..3 .15………………7.31……………..4.70
16…………..5B………….4.12…………..2 .53………………6.65……………..4.65
17…………..5A………….4.00…………..1 .69………………5.69……………..4.81
18…………..2C………….3.90…………..2 .90………………6.81……………..4.05
19…………..4D………….3.61…………..2 .48………………6.08……………..4.04
20…………..3D………….3.39…………..2 .29………………5.68……………..5.14
21…………..2F…………..3.32………….. 2.99………………6.31……………..3.50
22…………..2G………….1.12…………..1 .75………………2.87……………..4.13

WMU 5C has great habitat and more tags PSM than 2B , but lower harvest rates because we have a lot of ground that is open to hunting ,even though it might be posted.

RE: Predators and deer
 

boy, WMU2G IS AT BOTTOM, WORST IN STATE

RE: Predators and deer
 

yep,and there's still pretty good hunting is you hunt where the deer should be.

RE: Predators and deer
 

Then the hunting in 2F must be terrific, WMU 4E must be fabulous, 5C must be out of this world and 2B must be one big deer farm!!:)

RE: Predators and deer
 

I don't disagree with that at all.That's why I laugh at all the belly aching.Seriously,some of you guys are hunting in areas that are harvesting more dpsm than we have.I have no problems finding plenty of deer to harveston public land in 2G.I can't believe some of you guys can cry about no deer.

RE: Predators and deer
 

You have thousands of acres to hunt with very few hunters to compete with. Others are limited to a few hundred acres with lots of competition and areas where the deer are not accessible.

RE: Predators and deer
 

If you could have access to 90% of 2B to hunt. I promise you,With 59,000 doe tags handed out, That area would be like 2G. If there is so many deer in 2B,How can the habitat not be bad there when you have more deer than any other WMUs? At allowing over 60,000 doe tags for that WMU alone should tell you something. Do they have magic plants that regenerate after eating so fast that the deer population can not do enough damage to their habitat. Think about it for a moment. 60,000 tags and the habitat is in excellent condition. Hows that possible if there is that many deer that they can give out 60,000 tags a year for that WMU?

RE: Predators and deer
 

you are very funny:)

RE: Predators and deer
 

douge,you really are one heck of hunter,you always see PLENTY of deer,i just contacted REDHEAD at bass pro to see if they have opening for you.:)i

RE: Predators and deer
 

good point, maybe RSB will add something on that.

RE: Predators and deer
 

We finally agree on something Bluebird! 2F is terrific!!!

RE: Predators and deer
 

Access is the big issue in 2B without a doubt. The habitat is also excellent simply because the whitetail is a creature of the edge and is so adaptable.Much of 2B is suburban, and there are a lot of reverting and working farms. All of those tend to grow a lot more food than a stand of timber

RE: Predators and deer
 

if anyone gets to hyner,pa. my friend has deer he is raising.

i think around 11.

his fenced in area is no bigger than about 1 acre.

his deer are all fat and sassy.

funny how person can raise 11 deer in 1 acre and we cant keep 1 deer alive in 1 mile.

RE: Predators and deer
 

Hunting in 2F is terrific because the PGC HR plan failed. WMU 2B is a deer farm because the PGC HR plan failed. WMU 2g has the worst harvest rate in the state because the PGC plan was a success. So according to the PGC a successful deer management plan is one that produces the lowest harvest rate possible. WHAT A PLAN!!

RE: Predators and deer
 

Hunting in 2F is terrific because we now have reasonable numbers of good size healthy deer instead of ridiculous numbers of itty bitty deer, the habitat is recovering and the size and quality of the deer is better, both bucks and does. Doesn't sound like failure to me:D. Dont feel too bad though. You got the part about the hunting being terrific!

2B is terrific simply because the food is abundant and access is available for those willing to put in some time.Sanctuary areas have as much to do with bucks getting to older ages as AR does but AR is still valuable here. The PGC HR plan for 2B is only moderately successful simply becausethey cant control all the factors invloved in managing a habitat with a very high human population.

RE: Predators and deer
 

DCNR has the plan, plan is to remove deer.

PGC i dont believe ever was concerned about deer health to start this whole thing,i dont believe thats what brought HR about,it was DCNR and the audobon groups that got right people in place and pushed for the HR because of way forest was affecting trees and birds.

no doubt the habitat is not great but i dont feel the PGC was behind this plan, they just had to step in line and go along with it even tho they may AGREE with it, they did not start it.;)

RE: Predators and deer
 

But forest health is rated poor in both 2G and 2F and 2F has lower regeneration rates than 2G. yet the PGC is managing 2F at 22 PS DPSM and 2G at 12 PSDPSM. When I ask Dr. Rosenberry about that discrepancy he didn't have an answer and neither do you. So the question is ,is 2G being mis-managed or is 2F being mis-managed?

Regarding 2B, the PGC doesn't consider anything but forested habitat as suitable deer habitat. Reverting farms,reclaimed strip mines,lawns, hay fields and power line right of way are assigned no habitat value by the PGC. The PGC goal for 2B was 13 DPSM and in 2005 it had 36 DPSM and the PGC said the herd was still increasing.

RE: Predators and deer
 

We've been down this road before and the answers arent going to change and you will dismiss them when I explain. Move on please.

RE: Predators and deer
 

in other words you don't have a rational rebuttal,as usual. I have the facts and all you have is your opinions.

RE: Predators and deer
 

Present something new, undistorted, with documentation of your source and maybe we'll have a discusion. The stuff you just posted ahs been done to death and we'll never agree.

Otherwise, out of repect for the other members of this forum, I'm not going to get into another meaning less back and forth game of nitpicking with you.

RE: Predators and deer
 

After calling me a liar ,Bluejob and other names now you suddenly want to take the high road to avoid answering questions for which you have no answers. You totally misrepresented the issues regarding the effects of sample size on the breeding rates and you misrepresented my position on that issue.

Therefore, you are in no position to to tell me what i should post.

RE: Predators and deer
 

The name calling and attacks ran both ways. You stated your position and I stated mine. There's nothing more we can say without repeating ourselves and we're simply not going to agree. Again, out of respect for the other members here, lets move on

RE: Predators and deer
 

I never called you a BLXX job or anything close to that. you have called me a liar over and over again without any facts to support your claims and engaged in constant cheap shots and insults.

You can move on to whatever you want, but don't lie about my positions and don't engage in mindless name calling as you have done in the past.

RE: Predators and deer
 

If your deer numbers are way below carry capacity in 2G, Why does the PGC still give out 21,000 doe tags and who knows how many Dmap tags for 2G?
They don't even take predators into account when manageing wildlife and carry capacity. That is crazy.

RE: Predators and deer
 

They take predators in account, but the predators don't kill enough deer to keep the PGC happy ,so they issue doe tags and DMAP tags so that DCNR can grow more oak trees without fencing.

RE: Predators and deer
 

blue-bird:eek:,he is trying to say he is not going to use those words .how about you too;)

i do hope you both CONTINUE to disagree or agree if proven that something is fact .

it would be sad if this info from you and others does not continue,i learned a lot from all on here too.

this is best forum i have ever been on, none better.

RE: Predators and deer
 

The reason unit 2B can continue to harvest so many deer year after years has very little to do with posted or unhunted property. After all if that were really the case that unit would have fewer deer per square mile then the public land areas instead of over four times as many. The fact is hunters have been hammering the antler less deer in the areas that make up unit 2B with unlimited antler less tags and doe harvests for over fifteen years now. In spite of those high doe harvests they still can’t get the deer numbers reduced and have to use sharp shooters at night in many areas to even control the ever increasing populations.

The reason the deer numbers keep increasing there is because the Game Commission never allowed the deer populations to get high enough in the areas that make up unit 2B for the deer to cause extensive damage to their food supply. The way they prevented that from happening was by allowing hunters to have unlimited antler less license and basically kill as many does as they wanted. By doing that they protected the deer habitat which allowed the deer numbers to keep increasing.

I have hunted in various areas of unit 2B and though there are many posted areas I never had much trouble getting permission to hunt most of it. There are very few areas that someone isn’t hunting and those few places that no one hunts are generally just small areas that are less then the home range of a deer. So almost all of the deer at some point in time are in an areas that can be and is hunted. Once the pressure starts some deer do move into protected areas where few hunters have access to them but many still end up being harvested in those protected properties. I’ve been there to see some of them harvested.

Even when the deer do go into the protected areas they only stay there during the high hunting pressure times and then they come back out to the area where the deer populations had been controlled, through deer harvests, to feed the rest of the year. That allows all of the remaining deer having enough food to be healthy and produce healthy fawns with high survival rates each spring. Heck the cars kill more deer in those areas each year then the hunters in unit 2G have been killing.

Meanwhile, in unit 2G the hunters and their politician alias have been demanding lower antler less allocations and harvests for many decades and usually the Game Commission has caved in an granted their wishes and demands. That is the very reason there are so few deer there today. We over protected the deer and totally ignored the damage they were doing to their food supply and habitat. Eventually the habitat got so poor darn few deer could live there except during years with ideal mast crops and mild winters.

Unit 2G has few deer today, except in those areas where the habitat has recovered due to recent timbering or other habitat development work, because each deer need enough food to survive all year not just during the ideal summer months.

The big woods areas would have more deer today if the hunters had allowed the professional deer managers to do the right thing and harvest in all of those past years and decades. But, the evidence is indicating that the big woods habitat can recover in the future and perhaps faster then we first believed. If the unknowledgeable hunters and their political alias don’t continue once again to get their way and we can get and keep the big woods deer harvests high enough I am darn confident we will see more deer in those big woods areas once again in the future then we have now.
If the under educated hunters and politicians get their way though we will just watch even more areas of the state start experiencing habitat damage and declining deer numbers.

Once other thing that everyone has to understand is that not all parts of the state can or ever will support as many deer as some of the other areas. Many areas of the state have poor soils, rocky outcroppings or other adverse conditions that simply will never support as many deer as the richer soil, farm lands habitat can support. Nothing can change the affects nature has on the environmental conditions so all we can do is live with what is instead of what we wish.

This post is not just directed at Bluebird’s post but intended to address the issues raised by several recent posts.

R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: Predators and deer
 

PGC did stop doe killing for first week of gun, that was start in wmu2g.

i hear they may be starting a study group on that first week affect.

you are right, the fly over failed and did not show deer that they wanted it to show was here in wmu2g.

i can tell you, i know western clinton county very well.

no way we have 12 dpsm, or 9 dpsm, or 6dpsm.

in fact, i have not heard anyone say locally they saw more than 2 deer running together.

that alone should say something .........

RE: Predators and deer
 

I never called you BLXXjob. I called you Bluejob and Blueboy. As I said, it went both ways. The holier than thou attitude just won't fly. Here are a few reminders of some things you've posted.



Don't want to be called names? Don't use em. Don't want atacks and insults? Don't give me out! I'm trying to put an end to this.

I will continue to challenge posts that appear misleading or incorrect but lets stop the constant rehashing and yes, the "dead horse beating"

RE: Predators and deer
 

[quote]ORIGINAL: BTBowhunter


I never called you BLXXjob. I called you Bluejob and Blueboy. As I said, it went both ways. The holier than thou attitude just won't fly. Here are a few reminders of some things you've posted.

RE: Predators and deer
 

Sproul 3c was in that no doe the first week too and i liked it
i know some complained it wasnt fair but they bought there doe
tags for other wmu
Anyway since pgc is willing to do no doe's for a week in certain areas
that should mean they are doing there job and monitoring and ajusting
doe to what is needed right?

RE: Predators and deer
 

Not necessarily. If the PGC reduced the herd to way below the MSY carrying capacity and are issuing enough tags to keep the herd at those low levels, then they are still mis-managing the herd.

RE: Predators and deer
 

Sproul,explain how the FLIR's were a failure and who were they a failure to?

Bowtruck,I grew up right on the border or 3C and 3B and most of my family still lives in one of those two units.I didn't hunt up there this year but most years I do and I can tell you one thing.The habitat in 3C rivals some of the worst habitat in 2G.My brother lives at the very bottom of 3C,It's all agriculture around his property but other than that,the habitat is terrible.I have another buddy that owns hundreds of acres just outside of Montrose.Other than their food plots,the habitat is absolute crap.That area has some of the most overbrowsed habitat I've ever seen.It's terrible and the one thing they don't need is to lay off the does in that unit.Incientally,3C's herd healthis rated as the poorest in the state.Out of 40 roadkilled female fawns checked between 2003 and 2005,none were pregnant.That's terrible.2G even had three.

RE: Predators and deer
 

That is not true. WMU 3 C is at it's target goal for herd health and 3D is the only WMU that is below goal. Furthermore 3C has some of the best deer habitat in the state as of result of years of timbering of pole timber stands for pulp wood for P&G. Unfortunately you think the deer need perfect habitat where even pole timber has a well developed understory, when in fact that is impossible. Wmu 3C can support at least twice as many deer as it has now and still be quite healthy.

RE: Predators and deer
 

Oops,your right.they were just rated poor in 2006.Regardless,they did have the lowest fawn conception rate in the state.

The habitat is extremley poor in the areas that I hunt and visted.When was the last time P&G had any wood cut in 3C?I may have misunderstood,but my brother works atP&G and I could have sworn that they stopped making pulp there quite a few years ago.I thought theyput a couple more paper machines in and started shipping in the pulp.I could be wrong about that.

RE: Predators and deer
 

But they didn't have the lowest rate in 2006 when 6% of the fawns were checked.

You are right that P&G stopped cutting pulp some time ago. But all the cutting they did since the 70's should have allowed the habitat in the uncut areas to recover. If it didn't it was due to shading and not the deer.

RE: Predators and deer
 

flyover was failure in clinton because it did not show the deer that the PGC/DCNR wanted to show.

douge, how many dpsm did the flir show for clinton county.

dont give me they were hiding behind pine trees is why few were shown.:)