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RE: Predators and deer
Lets go back to this question. What do you people think is the coyote population is in PA? With a decline in deer numbers and an increase of predators other than man, What will become of the deer herds? More predators and less deer equals? So your PA deer doesn'tyard up?
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RE: Predators and deer
[blockquote]quote: ORIGINAL: NY Bowhunter Don't forget about mountain lions. They could be the biggest threat of all. [/blockquote] i dont think cougars here in pa. are much of threat to deer,i believe we only have few of them;) |
RE: Predators and deer
ORIGINAL: R.S.B. ORIGINAL: explorer_Jack From my readings,Fawn survival doubled when coyotes was removed from the area. This was also the case with black bears being removed from the area also where fawns was born. K9s have excellent smell and can seek out these new borns quite easy.So their defence doesn't work to well on coyotes as they would on bear. It's enough charlie to say that when the coyotes was removed from fawning areas the fawn survival doubled. Also coyotes will kill fox and bobcats that are in their area to protect the food supply. In NY where coyotes are,you see very little fox sign any more. They will attempt to kill every fox and bobcat they see. Coyotes can and occasionally will prey on a fox though it appears to be an extremely rare occurrence. The real reason fox numbers, both red and gray, tend to decline when the coyote numbers increase is simply because they use the same prey base and since the coyote is a larger and more skilled predator he out competes the fox for both the prey base and the no prey food supply. Then since nature guarantees that no population can exceed its food supply for more then short term periods or ideal conditions the fox populations naturally decline. That has nothing to do with predation and is strictly a result of completion for the available food supply. Are the foxes dieing of starvation then your saying? What is your guess of coyote population in your state? Coyotes do NOT out compete the bobcat. In this part of the state we had lots of coyotes and few bobcats ten to twenty years ago. Now we have continuously increasing bobcat numbers and it seems that the coyote numbers have declined with the increasing bobcat populations. The bobcat is a very equal predator to the coyote even though they do share some of the same prey base. Coyotes are not going to tangle with or try to prey on a bobcat unless it is a very young unprotected one. What evidence do you have in the decline of coyotes because the increase of bobcats? Adult to adult I suspect the bobcat would win out in a fight with a coyote, but those battles are extremely rare in wild populations since predators almost never want to enter into any fight where there is even a remote chance of being injured. They instinctively know that an injury, even a minor one, likely means death. They aren’t going to put their life at risk unless things are in a very desperate state toward their own survival. Most the time coyotes run in pairs or more. I would think they would attack a bobcat just to kill it as they do foxes. Again they are protecting their food sources from other predators. As for the nose on a coyote or any other predator it simply doesn’t matter when it comes to fawns. The fawns have no scent distinguishable to a predator for the early stages of their life. That is why after they have nursed they walk off and lay down to hide while the doe walks off in a different direction. The predators can track the does, by scent, and they do sometimes do that hoping to get into the right area to stumble onto a fawn. If they do they kill it but it was simply because the fawn failed to remain hidden or the predator got lucky and just stumbled upon the fawn. By the time fawns are leaving scent they can generally outrun a predator. They killed 22% of the fawns that are born. That was when your deer herd numbers was high. Now when you lowered your deer herds,What % of fawns for re-population won't make it thru the first year? R.S. Bodenhorn |
RE: Predators and deer
ORIGINAL: NY Bowhunter [blockquote]quote: ORIGINAL: NY Bowhunter Don't forget about mountain lions. They could be the biggest threat of all. [/blockquote] i dont think cougars here in pa. are much of threat to deer,i believe we only have few of them;)  |
RE: Predators and deer
ORIGINAL: explorer_Jack Lets go back to this question. What do you people think is the coyote population is in PA? With a decline in deer numbers and an increase of predators other than man, What will become of the deer herds? More predators and less deer equals? So your PA deer doesn'tyard up? but now, i seecoyote tracks all time and see very few bobcat tracks. also, i see usually 4 together in snow,then after awhile it goes too 2 in snow. you cant walk the roads as i do with my grouse dogs and not see poo,its all over and the dcnr rep told me it was deer hair in poo. he happened to stop and talk to me and looked at poo for me.he said thats DEER HAIR And it was in month of july, i was out getting my dog in shape and me too.:D |
RE: Predators and deer
spoul maybe all the mountain lions down there killed or run off all the bobcats:eek:
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RE: Predators and deer
Are the foxes dieing of starvation then your saying? What is your guess of coyote population in your state? No fox probably aren’t starving to death just like few deer actually starve to death. But, starving isn’t always the way nature reduces a wildlife population to keep it within the limits of its food supply. The more typical method of limiting wildlife populations is with lower reproductive rates or recruitment rates that fit the availability of the food supply. I don’t know how many coyotes we have but the number really doesn’t matter anyway. They are here in all areas with suitable habitat and have been for a long time. Here is a link that should help you become better informed on coyotes and how they function in nature. http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=458&q=163663 What evidence do you have in the decline of coyotes because the increase of bobcats? Besides personal observations also by being a Conservation Officer that monitors wildlife population trends by using volunteers that travel designated wildlife survey route each fall. As those volunteers have recorded increasing bobcat numbers they have also recorded declining coyote numbers. Most the time coyotes run in pairs or more. I would think they would attack a bobcat just to kill it as they do foxes. Again they are protecting their food sources from other predators. That is an extremely rare occurrence. Read the above link. They killed 22% of the fawns that are born. That was when your deer herd numbers was high. Now when you lowered your deer herds,What % of fawns for re-population won't make it thru the first year? Predation by any species was very low in the study area where they had suitable deer habitat and extremely high where the deer habitat has been degraded from year of high deer population. Here is a link to the fawn study mortality facts. http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/pgc/deer/pdf/fawn_survival.pdf R.S. Bodenhorn |
RE: Predators and deer
ORIGINAL: R.S.B. Are the foxes dieing of starvation then your saying? What is your guess of coyote population in your state? No fox probably aren’t starving to death just like few deer actually starve to death. But, starving isn’t always the way nature reduces a wildlife population to keep it within the limits of its food supply. The more typical method of limiting wildlife populations is with lower reproductive rates or recruitment rates that fit the availability of the food supply. If that was the case,Then why is the PGC reducing the deer numbers because of food shortage? Does this not apply to your deerand just predators? I don’t know how many coyotes we have but the number really doesn’t matter anyway. They are here in all areas with suitable habitat and have been for a long time. In what way do you mean the numbers don't matter? Shouldn't they be considered in the deer management and HR of your state? Again if you got more predator than prey,the prey will become extinct. This has been proven all thru history. Also don't the yearling does give birth to 1 fawn most of the time? Would you say that most the mature does been shot off by the request of Gary Alt? Here is a link that should help you become better informed on coyotes and how they function in nature. http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=458&q=163663 What evidence do you have in the decline of coyotes because the increase of bobcats? Besides personal observations also by being a Conservation Officer that monitors wildlife population trends by using volunteers that travel designated wildlife survey route each fall. As those volunteers have recorded increasing bobcat numbers they have also recorded declining coyote numbers. I am sorry I do not call that evidence? The PGC does not use eye witnesses who hunt deer as sproul and many others on here as evidence that there is way fewer deer than the carry capacity of the WMU. Most the time coyotes run in pairs or more. I would think they would attack a bobcat just to kill it as they do foxes. Again they are protecting their food sources from other predators. That is an extremely rare occurrence. Read the above link. They killed 22% of the fawns that are born. That was when your deer herd numbers was high. Now when you lowered your deer herds,What % of fawns for re-population won't make it thru the first year? Predation by any species was very low in the study area where they had suitable deer habitat and extremely high where the deer habitat has been degraded from year of high deer population. Here is a link to the fawn study mortality facts. http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/pgc/deer/pdf/fawn_survival.pdf In a fawn survival study in Centre County Pennsylvania during 2000-2001, 218 fawns were radioed and followed with telemetry equipment. Of these fawns, predators killed 22 percent, the leading source of mortality. Of the fawns killed by predators, most were killed by coyotes (49%) and bears (43%). Nearly 50% of all mortality occurred during the month of June, with 18 percent and 16 percent in July and August. It was interesting to note that 84 percent of fawn predation occurred on one of two study areas. This probably illustrates the difference in predation rates due to localized coyote populations. R.S. Bodenhorn |
RE: Predators and deer
Here is what the PGC has to say about predation by yotes.
What effect do coyotes have on deer populations? Response: Coyotes do kill deer, but they don't appear to be seriously impacting deer populations anywhere in the state. Studies in New England have shown that coyotes there are responsible for roughly 50 percent of known fawn losses. However, their research also revealed that more than three-quarters of all newborn deer survive. In Pennsylvania, our data also indicate that coyotes are not a major mortality factor in deer populations; they're no more significant than other mortality factors such as deer lost to highways, crop damage, dogs, starvation and poaching. All mortality factors -- excluding hunting --annually account for about 150,000 to 175,000 deer. |
RE: Predators and deer
http://bowsite.com/bowsite/features/articles/deer/seminars/coyotes/
Where deer densities are too high and hunting pressure light, the coyotes are actually doing the deer herd a favor by taking out a few deer. On the other hand, where we have deer populations less than 10 deer per square mile, coyotes may have a negative impact. |
RE: Predators and deer
ORIGINAL: bluebird2 Here is what the PGC has to say about predation by yotes. What effect do coyotes have on deer populations? Response: Coyotes do kill deer, but they don't appear to be seriously impacting deer populations anywhere in the state. Studies in New England have shown that coyotes there are responsible for roughly 50 percent of known fawn losses. However, their research also revealed that more than three-quarters of all newborn deer survive. In Pennsylvania, our data also indicate that coyotes are not a major mortality factor in deer populations; they're no more significant than other mortality factors such as deer lost to highways, crop damage, dogs, starvation and poaching. All mortality factors -- excluding hunting --annually account for about 150,000 to 175,000 deer. |
RE: Predators and deer
t is very much starting to look that way from the data,Or they have no clue about deer management. Not being a smart arse,But it is pointing that they want way lower than carrying capacity of the habitat by not taking predation into their equation. They haven't been managing the herd based on the carrying capacity of the habitat since 1980. But ,now they are managing the herd in 2G at at least 30% below the goal they set in 2003 and the 2003 goal was below the MSY carrying capacity of the habitat. |
RE: Predators and deer
bb Idont think it is just 2g that is below carring capacity this is where hunters need to unite for all pa
not just there wmu they hunt in |
RE: Predators and deer
I agree and that is what I have been saying for the past 8 years. I just used 2G as an example because it is the one WMU where the PGC has successfully reduced the herd below the goal it established in 2003. There is no question that the PGC is managing the herd below the carrying capacity of the habitat, because if it wasn't breeding rates would have increased as the herd was reduced.
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RE: Predators and deer
ORIGINAL: bowtruck spoul maybe all the mountain lions down there killed or run off all the bobcats:eek: |
RE: Predators and deer
ORIGINAL: R.S.B. Are the foxes dieing of starvation then your saying? What is your guess of coyote population in your state? No fox probably aren’t starving to death just like few deer actually starve to death. But, starving isn’t always the way nature reduces a wildlife population to keep it within the limits of its food supply. The more typical method of limiting wildlife populations is with lower reproductive rates or recruitment rates that fit the availability of the food supply. I don’t know how many coyotes we have but the number really doesn’t matter anyway. They are here in all areas with suitable habitat and have been for a long time. Here is a link that should help you become better informed on coyotes and how they function in nature. http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=458&q=163663 What evidence do you have in the decline of coyotes because the increase of bobcats? Besides personal observations also by being a Conservation Officer that monitors wildlife population trends by using volunteers that travel designated wildlife survey route each fall. As those volunteers have recorded increasing bobcat numbers they have also recorded declining coyote numbers. Most the time coyotes run in pairs or more. I would think they would attack a bobcat just to kill it as they do foxes. Again they are protecting their food sources from other predators. That is an extremely rare occurrence. Read the above link. They killed 22% of the fawns that are born. That was when your deer herd numbers was high. Now when you lowered your deer herds,What % of fawns for re-population won't make it thru the first year? Predation by any species was very low in the study area where they had suitable deer habitat and extremely high where the deer habitat has been degraded from year of high deer population. Here is a link to the fawn study mortality facts. http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/pgc/deer/pdf/fawn_survival.pdf R.S. Bodenhorn no doubt about that. |
RE: Predators and deer
ORIGINAL: bluebird2 I agree and that is what I have been saying for the past 8 years. I just used 2G as an example because it is the one WMU where the PGC has successfully reduced the herd below the goal it established in 2003. There is no question that the PGC is managing the herd below the carrying capacity of the habitat, because if it wasn't breeding rates would have increased as the herd was reduced. |
RE: Predators and deer
The PGC goal for clinton Co. was 16 DPFSM , but the true carrying capacity of the habitat was higher than that figure.
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RE: Predators and deer
it seems to me almost all wmu should be able to carry 16-21 dpsm but i am not a wildlife bio
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RE: Predators and deer
You may not be a wildlife bio, but you are right and most WMUs can carry a lot more than that.
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RE: Predators and deer
The PGC goal for clinton Co. was 16 DPFSM , but the true carrying capacity of the habitat was higher than that figure. |
RE: Predators and deer
Wrong again sport. The PGC didn't change to DPSM until 2003 and both HR and ARs were implemented before that.
Table 2. Winter deer density goals and estimated winter densities from Jan 1999 through Jan 2003 for Pennsylvania. Wildlife Management Unit (WMU) 5D is excluded due to limited harvest data. Post-hunt deer density estimate (Jan)b WMU Goala 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 1A 9 20 23 23 24 26 1B 12 22 25 25 25 25 2A 13 36 39 38 37 36 2B 10 24 26 28 28 30 2C 15 23 26 27 30 31 2D 14 31 33 31 31 29 2E 14 25 26 25 25 24 2F 17 27 30 28 27 24 2G 15 14 15 14 13 12 3A 15 23 26 28 30 31 3B 13 21 24 26 28 29 3C 14 24 27 28 28 28 3D 13 16 19 21 22 23 4A 15 25 28 28 29 30 4B 11 20 23 24 27 29 4C 12 20 23 24 25 26 4D 14 20 23 22 23 24 4E 11 19 21 22 23 23 5A 8 14 16 18 19 21 5B 5 13 15 16 17 17 5C 6 17 18 19 19 19 aEstimated population density that can be supported during winter without over-browsing forest habitats, estimated from forest composition data. bMinimum deer density estimates derived from simulation modeling. |
RE: Predators and deer
Wrong again sport. The PGC didn't change to DPSM until 2003 and both HR and ARs were implemented before that. from the PGC site: http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=460&Q=174562& 2003 – Antler restrictions are implemented for hunting seasons to allow more bucks to reach older age classes statewide. Much of the state follows a three points to one antler rule; 10 western counties have a four points to one antler rule. Antlered deer taken in Special Regulations Area counties must have a spike at least three inches long, or an antler with at least two points. |
RE: Predators and deer
You really aren't even half as smart as you think you are. The 2002 buck harvest dropped from 203K in 2001 to 165K in 2002 due to ARs.
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RE: Predators and deer
ORIGINAL: bluebird2 You really aren't even half as smart as you think you are. The 2002 buck harvest dropped from 203K in 2001 to 165K in 2002 due to ARs.  again, see the link above!! BTW, WTF is your point anyway? Not every aspect of the plan was instituted on the same day there Blueboy. My point was that the shift from DPFSM to DPSM was one part of the many changes made within a short period of time. |
RE: Predators and deer
The same statement would be true today and it still wouldn't tell you when ARs were implemented. Only someone that is brain dead wouldn't know ARs were implemented in 2002 ,not 2003.
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RE: Predators and deer
Whether it was 2002 or 2003, as the PGC website says by the way, only a brain dead moron would carry this any further....
Bet you did a lot of "did not/did too's" with your siblings till mommy wanted to scream didnt you? Go ahead, have your last word, I know you wont be able to resist:D I'm done with this little exercise in didnot didtoo |
RE: Predators and deer
Thanks for admitting you were,WRONG AGAIN!
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RE: Predators and deer
To get back on topic
It's both interesting and relevant to note that half of the adult doe mortality study was done in the Quehanna wild area, the samearea as half of the fawn mortality study. This is the area with very poor habitat.Quehanna had higher predator mortality in the fawn study than PennValley and yet hunter mortality on the adult does wasextremely low in Quehanna. Even if we concede that there are some hunters who are reluctant to shoot collared deer, The very very low rtae of hunter mortality on does in Quehannakind of supports RSB's contention that mother nature finds a way to take care of controlling populations in poor habitat when hunters don't. |
RE: Predators and deer
You truly are amazingly ignorant. even after the dramatic herd reduction in 2g ,it still took a harvest of 11,700 deer by hunters just to keep the herd stable. Even the village idiot would recognize that the harvest by hunters is controlling the herd, that is ,except for BTB and RSB.
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RE: Predators and deer
ORIGINAL: bluebird2 The PGC goal for clinton Co. was 16 DPFSM , but the true carrying capacity of the habitat was higher than that figure. well, its down like 3 dpsm ,at least where i hunt and know area.lot of areas are shot out. |
RE: Predators and deer
You truly are amazingly ignorant. even after the dramatic herd reduction in 2g ,it still took a harvest of 11,700 deer by hunters just to keep the herd stable. Even the village idiot would recognize that the harvest by hunters is controlling the herd, that is ,except for BTB and RSB. |
RE: Predators and deer
ORIGINAL: bluebird2 Thanks for admitting you were,WRONG AGAIN! |
RE: Predators and deer
i used to drive thru quehanna a lot, like 15 times a month.
i used to see a ton of deer until all tags were issued. now, you dont see many. |
RE: Predators and deer
ORIGINAL: sproulman i used to drive thru quehanna a lot, like 15 times a month. i used to see a ton of deer until all tags were issued. now, you dont see many. |
RE: Predators and deer
ORIGINAL: sproulman ORIGINAL: bluebird2 Thanks for admitting you were,WRONG AGAIN!
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RE: Predators and deer
ORIGINAL: bluebird2 You truly are amazingly ignorant. even after the dramatic herd reduction in 2g ,it still took a harvest of 11,700 deer by hunters just to keep the herd stable. Even the village idiot would recognize that the harvest by hunters is controlling the herd, that is ,except for BTB and RSB. Oh wow you will really prove your point with that information! NOT!! That was a deer harvest of a whole 2.84 deer per square mile being harvested with a whole 1.24 of those being antler less deer harvested per square mile. That is the lowest harvest per square mile in the state with the second lowest was nearly twice as high at 5.03 deer harvested per square mile. Perhaps we should compare that to the unit that is made up largely of the city and streets of Pittsburgh where hunters harvested 14.46 deer per square mile and 11.23 per square mile of those were antler less deer, nearly ten times as many antler less as were harvested in unit 2G. Explain to everyone how hunters can continuously harvest over 14 deer per square mile, year after year, around the city streets of Pittsburgh but the big woods unit of 2G can’t sustain harvests of more then 3 deer per square mile. According to Bluebird it couldn’t be habitat related though so it must be that the deer in Pittsburgh have well over four fawns for every one the 2G does have and all of those Pittsburgh fawns must survive after being born too. R.S. Bodenhorn |
RE: Predators and deer
ORIGINAL: R.S.B. ORIGINAL: bluebird2 You truly are amazingly ignorant. even after the dramatic herd reduction in 2g ,it still took a harvest of 11,700 deer by hunters just to keep the herd stable. Even the village idiot would recognize that the harvest by hunters is controlling the herd, that is ,except for BTB and RSB. Oh wow you will really prove your point with that information! NOT!! That was a deer harvest of a whole 2.84 deer per square mile being harvested with a whole 1.24 of those being antler less deer harvested per square mile. That is the lowest harvest per square mile in the state with the second lowest was nearly twice as high at 5.03 deer harvested per square mile. Perhaps we should compare that to the unit that is made up largely of the city and streets of Pittsburgh where hunters harvested 14.46 deer per square mile and 11.23 per square mile of those were antler less deer, nearly ten times as many antler less as were harvested in unit 2G. Explain to everyone how hunters can continuously harvest over 14 deer per square mile, year after year, around the city streets of Pittsburgh but the big woods unit of 2G can’t sustain harvests of more then 3 deer per square mile. According to Bluebird it couldn’t be habitat related though so it must be that the deer in Pittsburgh have well over four fawns for every one the 2G does have and all of those Pittsburgh fawns must survive after being born too. R.S. Bodenhorn |
RE: Predators and deer
Well my predator thread got hijacked for the time being. I am curious of that also of the above. You got the Pittsburgh WMU and number of tags sold for that WMU and the harvest numbers? I do know alot of the Pittsburgh area is private and posted land and unhuntable do to city limits. The Pittsburg WMU is 2B and the allocation of antlerless tags has been essentially unlimited because thousands of tags go unsold each year for that unit. Much of it is private land and access is not as easy as walking onto the gamelands but is very much available to responsible hunters who ask well in advance of the season. Oh and yes we have coyotes here too. I've seen coyotes while hunting 10 minutes from downtown Pittsburgh. They're even becoming a problem in suburban neighborhoods taking cats and small dogs. You can find tag allocationa and harvest figures here http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/ |
RE: Predators and deer
Explain to everyone how hunters can continuously harvest over 14 deer per square mile, year after year, around the city streets of Pittsburgh but the big woods unit of 2G can’t sustain harvests of more then 3 deer per square mile. |
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