pa antler restrictions yes or no?
11-28-2008, 09:04 AM
#71
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 175
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
My point is please don't tell me that the only reason the PCG implemented the AR is so hunters can now brag about shooting a 6 or 8 point instead of the smaller racks they used to.It seems that so far that is the only positive result and that sure shouldn't be the primary focus with the deer herd now.
11-28-2008, 09:12 AM
#72
Spike
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Murrysville Pa/now Vacaville CA
Posts: 47
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
Selective doesn't work..cause you don't have to deal with liability issues.. I am selective as to what I do.. I can have you over some time to look at the bullet holes in our garage and our barn.. you do have liability issues with regards to someone getting hurt and it falls towards your homeowners clause..
As for the game is mine comment.. here is my point.. if I spend a little of my $$$ improving my place and I look at your sh%$ hole across the fence then on opening day all of your family is leaning over my fence and trespassing on my back pasture.. I have a problem... you may not, cause those deer do belong to everyone, but when I don't shoot anything without 8pts or better and you shoot brown animals there is another problem... So I don't vote for the past with the Murtha types.. I am a spread the wealth type. I earned I can play with it.. when my place is only 70 acres and the rest are 300 or more and you are hovering my fence line.. maybe I got it and you don't... I do have the biggest bucks on my place.. and they stay there.. but it is because I take the time to make it better.. so back to my comment on trespassing, I want more ability for the police and game officials.. so I can bust up the drivers who come on without a gun and push my place towards your family....
As for the game is mine comment.. here is my point.. if I spend a little of my $$$ improving my place and I look at your sh%$ hole across the fence then on opening day all of your family is leaning over my fence and trespassing on my back pasture.. I have a problem... you may not, cause those deer do belong to everyone, but when I don't shoot anything without 8pts or better and you shoot brown animals there is another problem... So I don't vote for the past with the Murtha types.. I am a spread the wealth type. I earned I can play with it.. when my place is only 70 acres and the rest are 300 or more and you are hovering my fence line.. maybe I got it and you don't... I do have the biggest bucks on my place.. and they stay there.. but it is because I take the time to make it better.. so back to my comment on trespassing, I want more ability for the police and game officials.. so I can bust up the drivers who come on without a gun and push my place towards your family....
11-28-2008, 09:29 AM
#73
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
The big price is less deer overall. My jury is still out in regard to some of this. We needed it badly in some areas. Not so much in others.
I am looking forward to the results of the pilot change in 2D 2G etc next week.You will recall that the PGC staff was adamantlyopposed to this change to the 5 day buck only rule and said it was too soon.The one thing Gary Alt seemed able to do within the PGc was to be adaptable and decisive when making changes. The thing that worries me most now that he's gone is that the PGC seems to have returned to theirtraditional habits of sometimes being a bit slow to change their course. That could translate to being slow to correct mistakes as we move forward. I understand that they can't knee jerk every decision but the PGC's past history has been one of resisting change for far too long. Right or wrong, they seem disproportionately resistant to change course compared to other states agencies even when results from other states clearly indicate that change could be good.
Some examples:
Pa was one of the very last to lengthen hunting hours to a half hour after sunset even after nationwide stats told us it was perfectly safe to do so.
Our original muzzleloader season started as only three days on select game lands and had to be worked up to a more conventional length and we stillstand virtually alone with the flintlock only thing.
We might just finally get a computerized licensing system next year. (not holding my breath) while other states managed to implement similar systems years ago. We've heard all the excuses but Illinois for example, has just as many varied tags and stamps as we doand they manged to get the job done several years ago. And their budget problems are far bigger than the PGC's
My posting in the past tells all that I'm generally supportive of the PGC
but that doesn't mean they couldn't do better.
I am looking forward to the results of the pilot change in 2D 2G etc next week.You will recall that the PGC staff was adamantlyopposed to this change to the 5 day buck only rule and said it was too soon.The one thing Gary Alt seemed able to do within the PGc was to be adaptable and decisive when making changes. The thing that worries me most now that he's gone is that the PGC seems to have returned to theirtraditional habits of sometimes being a bit slow to change their course. That could translate to being slow to correct mistakes as we move forward. I understand that they can't knee jerk every decision but the PGC's past history has been one of resisting change for far too long. Right or wrong, they seem disproportionately resistant to change course compared to other states agencies even when results from other states clearly indicate that change could be good.
Some examples:
Pa was one of the very last to lengthen hunting hours to a half hour after sunset even after nationwide stats told us it was perfectly safe to do so.
Our original muzzleloader season started as only three days on select game lands and had to be worked up to a more conventional length and we stillstand virtually alone with the flintlock only thing.
We might just finally get a computerized licensing system next year. (not holding my breath) while other states managed to implement similar systems years ago. We've heard all the excuses but Illinois for example, has just as many varied tags and stamps as we doand they manged to get the job done several years ago. And their budget problems are far bigger than the PGC's
My posting in the past tells all that I'm generally supportive of the PGC
but that doesn't mean they couldn't do better.
11-28-2008, 10:29 AM
#74
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
So, if we were to boil this down, there are less deer in PA... GOOD.. the ave age of a buck is 2.5yrs .. Better.... There are less does.... Better.... The changes that I am reading tend to revolve around the following:
11-28-2008, 12:28 PM
#75
Fork Horn
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 147
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
ORIGINAL: fellas2
Kudosto RSB for the post on page 6.It only re-enforces my claim about the AR.Looking at his data,letting 1 1/2 year old small racked bucks walk only serves to prolong the inevitable for another year,two at most. The 1 1/2 year olds walk only to be killed the following year or at best their third year.Far fewer make it past their third year and almost none make it to mature age of 5 1/2 - 7 1/2.So basically all the AR does is raise the average rack size of bucks taken and nothing else.
Kudosto RSB for the post on page 6.It only re-enforces my claim about the AR.Looking at his data,letting 1 1/2 year old small racked bucks walk only serves to prolong the inevitable for another year,two at most. The 1 1/2 year olds walk only to be killed the following year or at best their third year.Far fewer make it past their third year and almost none make it to mature age of 5 1/2 - 7 1/2.So basically all the AR does is raise the average rack size of bucks taken and nothing else.
Oh, so you figure there were more older bucks in the population when we harvested 80% of more of the 1 ½ year old bucks each year? That’s interesting, but it only makes about as much sense as a pig with wings.
It appears that you too are suffering from the inability to understand data or to comprehend written text as a few of the others posting here have already proven of themselves. Or have you just been learning to bluebird’s lead be simply posting a spin to what others have posted when their post proves you are wrong?
The fact is we have more older and mature bucks in the Pennsylvania deer population then ever occurred in any of our lives. And, it is probably going to get even better in the future provided the professionals can stick with scientific deer management instead of being forced back to that stupid system of management by public and political demand that has gone so far toward ruining the deer populations throughout the past.
Some people now just spend their time trying to drag management back to the dark ages of before antler restrictions because they presently can’t kill the first little buck they see the first morning and get back home, the bar or where ever they really would prefer being instead of hunting, like they had grown accustomed. Still others demand a return to the years of serious mismanagement of the deer herd when we over protected them almost out of existence in some areas of the state because they simply have no understanding of how nature really works in regards to a deer/habitat relationship.
Thankfully we presently have a Board of Commissioners with the guts and brain capacity to do the right thing for the resources, based on the guidance of the Professionals, instead of caving in to the people that have no idea what they are talking about.
R.S. Bodenhorn
11-28-2008, 01:45 PM
#76
Fork Horn
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 147
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
ORIGINAL: bluebird2
No, the average buck is still a 1.5 buck. In 2006 and 2007 only 44% of the buck harvested were 2.5+ buck, Furthermore, the average buck harvested still only have 7 points and Alt claimed ARs would double the number of 8 pt. buck. Alt was a great salesman but he knew very little about deer management or the history of deer management in PA..
So, if we were to boil this down, there are less deer in PA... GOOD.. the ave age of a buck is 2.5yrs .. Better.... There are less does.... Better.... The changes that I am reading tend to revolve around the following:
The age of the bucks being harvesteddoesn’t necessarily reflect the ages of the bucks in the population. During some years hunters harvest more and a higher percentage of the 1 ½ year old bucks simply because a higher percentage of the 1 1/2 year old bucks were antler legal as a result of earlier fawns the year before or having a mild winter that allowed the button bucks to gain weight through the winter and then put more into antler development in the spring.
Here is the actual bucks harvest history that compares the average ages of the bucks harvested for the past twenty-five years. This includes both the average number and the percentage.
Years…………………1.5 years old……………………….2.5 and older
83-87.…………………110,804 (79.2%)………………….29,137 (20.8%)
88-92.…………………132,870 (81.4%)………………….30,300 (18.6%)
93-97.…………………136,654 (81.9%)………………….30,270 (18.1%)
98-02.…………………148,058 (78.1%)………………….41,483 (21.9%)
03-07.………………….68,348 (54.1%)…………………..57,986 (45.9%)
R.S. Bodenhorn
11-28-2008, 02:14 PM
#77
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
The fact is we have more older and mature bucks in the Pennsylvania deer population then ever occurred in any of our lives. And, it is probably going to get even better in the future provided the professionals can stick with scientific deer management instead of being forced back to that stupid system of management by public and political demand that has gone so far toward ruining the deer populations throughout the past.
Some people now just spend their time trying to drag management back to the dark ages of before antler restrictions because they presently can’t kill the first little buck they see the first morning and get back home, the bar or where ever they really would prefer being instead of hunting, like they had grown accustomed. Still others demand a return to the years of serious mismanagement of the deer herd when we over protected them almost out of existence in some areas of the state because they simply have no understanding of how nature really works in regards to a deer/habitat relationship.
There is no data that shows ARs have benefited the herd in any way and ARS are not recommended as a long term method for increasing the age structure of the buck herd.
11-28-2008, 02:36 PM
#78
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 175
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
Never said there were more older bucks back 2003-2004,but as your own posting on page 6 shows pretty much shows all the AR did was increase the average age of the deer we harvested by 1-2 years at most .Once they got past that stage the numbers basically declined.
Cuernoes1 , I agree that punishment should be harsher for tresspassers,and maybe some of the PGC officers that ride around all day during the season pulling in front of moving vehicles and jumping out running up to them trying to catch guys with their guns loaded might be better off spent arresting and prosecuting these tresspassers.But to expect ant organization to give a landowner who posts his property extra doe tags for his own management practices is absoulutely absurd.It would be like kids the key to the candy store.
Cuernoes1 , I agree that punishment should be harsher for tresspassers,and maybe some of the PGC officers that ride around all day during the season pulling in front of moving vehicles and jumping out running up to them trying to catch guys with their guns loaded might be better off spent arresting and prosecuting these tresspassers.But to expect ant organization to give a landowner who posts his property extra doe tags for his own management practices is absoulutely absurd.It would be like kids the key to the candy store.
11-28-2008, 02:42 PM
#79
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location:
Posts: 2,978
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
"The fact is we have more older and mature bucks in the Pennsylvania deer population then ever occurred in any of our lives."
Hardly. Very debatable and I disagree strongly. Percentagewise, of course. Numberswise the extreme reduction will not allow it.
"And, it is probably going to get even better in the future"
Impossible. If the doe tags are not cut to at least reasonable levels andsome herd growth permitted, nothing will change. Nothing will improve. In fact, many areas are still spiraling downward.
"provided the professionals can stick with scientific deer management "
When do they intend to start and what is it to be based on? Most agree the reproductive angle was a bust. Now what? Continue measuring the abundance of trillium?[:'(]
"Thankfully we presently have a Board of Commissioners with the guts and brain capacity to do the right thing for the resources, based on the guidance of the Professionals, instead of caving in to the people that have no idea what they are talking about. "
Yes. Great board. Famous for their ecoextreme views and hosing the hunters of Pa. Seems to be another post with a link that pretty much sums those folks up to a "T". Worst group in our history, and definately no friends of the hunter.
Hardly. Very debatable and I disagree strongly. Percentagewise, of course. Numberswise the extreme reduction will not allow it.
"And, it is probably going to get even better in the future"
Impossible. If the doe tags are not cut to at least reasonable levels andsome herd growth permitted, nothing will change. Nothing will improve. In fact, many areas are still spiraling downward.
"provided the professionals can stick with scientific deer management "
When do they intend to start and what is it to be based on? Most agree the reproductive angle was a bust. Now what? Continue measuring the abundance of trillium?[:'(]
"Thankfully we presently have a Board of Commissioners with the guts and brain capacity to do the right thing for the resources, based on the guidance of the Professionals, instead of caving in to the people that have no idea what they are talking about. "
Yes. Great board. Famous for their ecoextreme views and hosing the hunters of Pa. Seems to be another post with a link that pretty much sums those folks up to a "T". Worst group in our history, and definately no friends of the hunter.
11-28-2008, 04:23 PM
#80
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location:
Posts: 642
RE: pa antler restrictions yes or no?
I really like AR, but I don't like how the pop has been slaughtered off. In 4c the amish guys come with their 25 hunters(wives and children with tags) and shoot everything they see. Now we have very few deer.
On the other hand, I consider myself a good hunter and can find bucks, and I now see much much bigger deer than I ever did before AR. I do go afield and not see deer a lot, but when I put it together I kill much bigger deer than before AR.
I think we need AR and a license for Does that does not include SGL's. Obviously we need to kill Does on SGL but we need a few deer running around. I am sure they could allocate licenses the SGL and private land without too much trouble. I will voluntter to take on the project.
On the other hand, I consider myself a good hunter and can find bucks, and I now see much much bigger deer than I ever did before AR. I do go afield and not see deer a lot, but when I put it together I kill much bigger deer than before AR.
I think we need AR and a license for Does that does not include SGL's. Obviously we need to kill Does on SGL but we need a few deer running around. I am sure they could allocate licenses the SGL and private land without too much trouble. I will voluntter to take on the project.