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RE: More Spin From RSB
Other studies have proven deer populations can exist in a conditions where population exceeds carrying capacity. They also prove the deer gradually get smaller (weight wise), the longer this continues. About the browse issue, you indicate the browse getting worse, yet you want the deer population to increase??? Bad idea. Ever thought about this, the fewer deer are eating more of their prefered browse, thereby slowing the comeback of some of the food. Plain and simply, some of it is aging and will never comeback, which I pointed out to you in previous posts All in all, they do a very good job. I don't think the deer population anywhere is going extinct anytime soon. But, lots of does is not necessarily a healthy herd. |
RE: More Spin From RSB
ORIGINAL: Coalcracker My son purchased 90 acres last year and built a home on it. We posted the land and didn't even bother to hunt it, all that was there were spikes and tiny Y bucks. This is located in Newark Valley, which isn't far from you, I met another hunter on one of these sights that was so helpful to us that he is the only one that has been hunting it for the last two years. My son put a three points to a side limit on it, this year my friend from up has seen a six pointer with a wide rack and he knows of an eight pointer and also a few other bucks around. He didn't shoot the six because it was first thing in the morning on the first day of rifle, he also doesn't want to harvest doe, with is a big plus as far as we are concerned. I see your sportsmen up there are no better than anywhere else, last year this friend of mine had to chase the local off because they always hunted there. As he is from Newark Valley he knew most of them, they hunt everybody else land and save their own land for later in the week. This year I had a camera stolen from on top of the hill, my son told my friend to arrest anybody he finds on the property. I'm reallynot too please with the numbers and quality of deer up there, I've already invested over $15,000 in equipment, plus seeds, fertilizer and expenses travelling the three hours up there to work on the food plots. There is nothing in that area for the deer to eat, most if not all the fields are weeds and grass, which they seem to bail for horses and cattle. Based on what i see,it is no wonder your brothers came to the N/C to shoot a deer. This friend of mine came down to my place last year, shot a nice eight pointer and said it was the biggest bodied deer he ever had gotten and thesecond largest rack. He'll be coming down again tomorrow and will have a great chance of harvest a nice buck,rack on this one will put last year buck to shame. Moral of this story is, doe hunter aren't welcome at my place in PA or my sons in N.Y. when we had lots of doe, i agree,they should be reduced. but now, in WMU2G is way too much doe killing.. the pgc did stop the doe killing here in WMU2G for first 5 days, finally they did something but it should be for 2 weeks and then old way, 3 days of doe. also stop the early oct in-line /rifle for doe only. when you hunt as hard as me and only see 11 deer for the 4 weeks of archery , something is wrong and that was for about a 25 mile area i hunted too. |
RE: More Spin From RSB
If I am reading this right, the discussion is whether habitat is a limiting factor in thePA herd vs. harvest. While this is a very convoluted subject,a whitetailed deer herd has the capability in good circumstances, food, cover etc.to double in size every 2 years. In a normal situation a doe will produce 2 fawns, one buck and one doe. So that would be the natural buck/doe ratio if nature had her way. However in an effort to please sportsmen, a buck only harvest was instituted in most states to increase the crop. PAG was courageous to start the programs theydid, as they have the deer herd in mind, as opposed to setting game laws with the hunter (AKA cash cow/revenue generator)as the primary cause for concern. One thing many hunters seem to forget is that we are stewards of the land and its inhabitants and we have to do what is right for them, not us, to maintain the natural resource. Sometimes, this includes making unpopular decisions to do the right thing. Doe harvests is one that springs to mind, as is antler restrictions that Mr. Alt instituted in his wisdom, to help bring the deer herd back to a better healthier ratio. This was never about trophy hunting, but buck doe ratio. Do you ever wonder why you walk through the woods and see very little scraping and rubbing activity? There is no need for it in many areas of the country as the bucks have too many does to breed now. They don't need to advertise. That is a sure sign of a skewed buck doe ratio. How many of us in the northeast seen 2 bucks fighting? Now ask someone from texas or Kansas and they will say its commonplace. When the ratio is correct, there is more activity and more competition. I wish my state would fix the buck do e ratio. They do allow generous amounts of doe harvest, but its not enough. Our head biologist in my opinion is scared to make such a decision because he saw first hand what the PA hunters did to Gary Alt. I think the fact that 90 percent of our forest land is privately owned plays a part also. Still, what's best for the wildlife?
Browse can be devastated very quickly. Coupled with a large canopy, an average acre of woods can produce about 200 pounds (dry weight) of food annually. When you take in to consideration that a single deer needs 6 to 10 pounds (dryweight) food per day, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how much damage 1 hungry deer can do to an acre of woodland. Conversely, 1 acre of food plot can produce a ton of food annually. Let's not forget the maturation of the forests and the ever encroaching developer sucking up more habitat daily. Acorns aren't browse per se. Browse is described as any woody or herbacious plants or forbes (weeds) Acornsare a seasonal intermittent mast crop. Red oaks are a 2 year tree. They will set flower in year one, and produce acorns in year 2. White oaks are a 1 year tree. (If at any time we have a late frost the crop can be lost) They set flower and produce seed in the same growing season. However they only produce a good crop every 3 to 5 years, so they are iffy at best and can't be considered a mainstay, unless you are fortunate to have pockets of oaks on alternating schedules. We need always keep in mind that deer are very territorial and will not tolerate deer from outside their range to come in and start eating their acorns when times are bad in their own neighboorhood. This year there are no acorns to be found here, and the herd seems to be down. I have not seen a squirrel this year either, another dependent of the acorn crop. Habitat is indeed a limiting factor in deer herd size. If you look at the understory in your wood lot you will see the browse line, where the deer have eaten as high as they can reach, standing on their hind legs. Again, keeping in mind that we are stewards and managers for the sake of the flora and fauna, we need to remember there are other animals out there. In the Northeast there are 27 species of shrub nesting birds that are threatened or on the decline, just due to the fact that the whitetail deer has devastated the understory. That first 6 feet that we call a browse line is home to many birds, and insects that normally nest in and feed upon them. So again there are many consequences to a carrying capacity issue. Another issue many states have is legislators. These politicians in many cases are calling the shots when it comes to wildlife and game laws. (Vermont's Deerherd winterkill nightmare of the late 60's early 70's for example)This is ridiculous. Setting game laws and carrying capacities are to be left to the scientists and biologists that we employ to do this. Would you want your car mechanic making your medical decisions? They are experts and again while they have to make some unpopular decisons, seasons, quotas, antler restrictions etc., they are doing it for the animals, not man, who in some instances just thinks they should be able to take what they want and screw everyoneelse. That mentality is akin to someone saying, well the deer population is low, I better go out and kill one before they are all gone. That was done 80 years or so ago and it took us many years to fix it. If you are a true conservationist you will look in to how these decisions are made and if your legislators are involved. Support the decisions your biologists make and call your legislator when these changes are being made and let them know how you feel. Then tell them to start legislation letting the biologists make the game laws, not a bunch of bleeding heart liberal bunny huggers. They won't do it willingly as they hate to let any bit of power go from their hands. ALso, While these discussions are very interesting and educational, I think we need to remember we are all on the same side and should treat each other with respect and courtesy. Get out and hunt. |
RE: More Spin From RSB
This was never about trophy hunting, but buck doe ratio. Do you ever wonder why you walk through the woods and see very little scraping and rubbing activity? There is no need for it in many areas of the country as the bucks have too many does to breed now. They don't need to advertise. That is a sure sign of a skewed buck doe ratio. Habitat is indeed a limiting factor in deer herd size. If you look at the understory in your wood lot you will see the browse line, where the deer have eaten as high as they can reach, standing on their hind leg You are dealing with theories and I am dealing with the facts provided by the deer in PA. |
RE: More Spin From RSB
problem is now, the FAWNS are being killed in great numbers by COYOTES.
i only saw 2 fawns here in western clinton county this year:( |
RE: More Spin From RSB
When you take in to consideration that a single deer needs 6 to 10 pounds (dry weight) food per day, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how much damage 1 hungry deer can do to an acre of woodland. I am dealing with the facts provided by the deer in PA Damn, you mean I wasted all this time hunting, observing, and studying deer in Ohio, New York, Illinois, Kentucky, Michigan and Oregon when all I had to do was ask them what they needed!!!! |
RE: More Spin From RSB
So you got this data directly from the deer, not PGC studies??? Do you talk to them often??? Where's their blog??? Damn, you mean I wasted all this time hunting, observing, and studying deer in Ohio, New York, Illinois, Kentucky, Michigan and Oregon when all I had to do was ask them what they needed!!!! Apparently you did waste a lot of your time since it is obvious you don't know how to apply the theories to real world deer management. |
RE: More Spin From RSB
you don't know how to apply the theories to real world deer management |
RE: More Spin From RSB
You can think whatever you choose but don't try to apply theories you don't fully understand, to the situation in PA. Until you actually understand how the PGC is managing our herd , you are in no position to tell anyone that the PGC is doing a good job or doing the right thing.
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RE: More Spin From RSB
Actually it was quite easy to deuce what the outcome would be as the herd was reduced by 50%. All one had to do is look at the history of the herd and harvests to predict the outcome, since it was simply impossible for increased breeding rates and recruitment to compensate for the loss of a significant percentage of the adult doe. That is why Alt's and RSB's predictions were wrong and my predictions were right. They told hunters what they wanted to hear while I based my predictions on the facts and reality. Your predictions came true because of unforeseen natural events instead of because you were correct about what would occur when you made the predictions. I certainly don’t know where you got the idea that Doctor Alt was telling people what they wanted to hear. He flat out told them there would be fewer deer. That was the largest part of his message. Even knowing that the majority of the hunters that attended the seminars agreed with moving in that direction because they knew it was the correct thing to do for the best possible future. Believe me it can get a lot worse and it still might if people like you get their way. When populations exceed the carrying capacity breeding rates and recruitment decrease and natural mortality equals recruitment. That didn't happen in PA and didn't even come close to happening. So maybe it is you that needs to read a few more studies. The unit that includes the city streets of Pittsburgh has averaged over fourteen deer harvested per square mile during the past five years. How can the recruitment keep up there at those harvests while in unit 2G the harvests have never been higher then eight total deer per square mile for more then a few years out the past twenty? Why is they can sustain deer harvests on our city street that two to five times as high as out remote forested areas consistently year after year for over fifteen years if it isn’t habitat related? Your arguments that high harvests reduced the big woods deer populations don’t make sense because that contention simply isn’t supported by the facts and you claiming other wise isn’t going to change those facts. It is all about having over protected the deer and under protected the deer food supply for way to long in the places that have few deer today. The only place Doctor Alt failed was by not starting this deer management program ten years earlier. If he had we would have a lot more deer today in these habitat damaged areas that presently have few deer. Hopefully the professionals can keep the present deer management program in tact and on track into the future so we don’t end up with even more areas of damaged habitat and naturally declining deer populations. R.S. Bodenhorn |
RE: More Spin From RSB
There are a few other post on here that I need to address but it is going to have to wait until there is break in the hunting seasons. I am just too busy right now to keep up with the message boards. I am sure some of the guys that don’t spend much time in the field hunting will have a ball posting nonsense while the real hunters and I are busy hunting or working. Anyway, everyone be careful out there, have a safe and enjoyable deer season. R.S. Bodenhorn |
RE: More Spin From RSB
Some of your predictions did come to pass but certainly not all of them and the ones that did come true were only because the back to back harsh winters caused the deer herd to crash in several areas of the state. You got the first sentence correct but then you ended up blowing it from that point on. Though it is uncertain just how much more the deer mortality was then recruitment in some of the poor habitat areas of the state it was very obvious that the recruitment was not keeping up with the mortality. Hunters in unit 2G have harvested and average of only four deer per square mile for the past five years. You truly are amazing. Apparently you don't even realize that the PGC is responsible for controlling the harvested based on recruitment, instead of the deer increasing recruitment to make up for increased harvests due to high anterless allocations. The unit that includes the city streets of Pittsburgh has averaged over fourteen deer harvested per square mile during the past five years. How can the recruitment keep up there at those harvests while in unit 2G the harvests have never been higher then eight total deer per square mile for more then a few years out the past twenty? Why is they can sustain deer harvests on our city street that two to five times as high as out remote forested areas consistently year after year for over fifteen years if it isn’t habitat related? Your arguments that high harvests reduced the big woods deer populations don’t make sense because that contention simply isn’t supported by the facts and you claiming other wise isn’t going to change those facts The only place Doctor Alt failed was by not starting this deer management program ten years earlier. If he had we would have a lot more deer today in these habitat damaged areas that presently have few deer. Hopefully the professionals can keep the present deer management program in tact and on track into the future so we don’t end up with even more areas of damaged habitat and naturally declining deer populations. |
RE: More Spin From RSB
ORIGINAL: RSB Actually it was quite easy to deuce what the outcome would be as the herd was reduced by 50%. All one had to do is look at the history of the herd and harvests to predict the outcome, since it was simply impossible for increased breeding rates and recruitment to compensate for the loss of a significant percentage of the adult doe. That is why Alt's and RSB's predictions were wrong and my predictions were right. They told hunters what they wanted to hear while I based my predictions on the facts and reality. Your predictions came true because of unforeseen natural events instead of because you were correct about what would occur when you made the predictions. I certainly don’t know where you got the idea that Doctor Alt was telling people what they wanted to hear. He flat out told them there would be fewer deer. That was the largest part of his message. Even knowing that the majority of the hunters that attended the seminars agreed with moving in that direction because they knew it was the correct thing to do for the best possible future. Believe me it can get a lot worse and it still might if people like you get their way. When populations exceed the carrying capacity breeding rates and recruitment decrease and natural mortality equals recruitment. That didn't happen in PA and didn't even come close to happening. So maybe it is you that needs to read a few more studies. The unit that includes the city streets of Pittsburgh has averaged over fourteen deer harvested per square mile during the past five years. How can the recruitment keep up there at those harvests while in unit 2G the harvests have never been higher then eight total deer per square mile for more then a few years out the past twenty? Why is they can sustain deer harvests on our city street that two to five times as high as out remote forested areas consistently year after year for over fifteen years if it isn’t habitat related? Your arguments that high harvests reduced the big woods deer populations don’t make sense because that contention simply isn’t supported by the facts and you claiming other wise isn’t going to change those facts. It is all about having over protected the deer and under protected the deer food supply for way to long in the places that have few deer today. The only place Doctor Alt failed was by not starting this deer management program ten years earlier. If he had we would have a lot more deer today in these habitat damaged areas that presently have few deer. Hopefully the professionals can keep the present deer management program in tact and on track into the future so we don’t end up with even more areas of damaged habitat and naturally declining deer populations. R.S. Bodenhorn i dont believe we would have more deer if he did it earlier. as long as all these tags were issued where you could get 1 buck and 4 doea few years ago,no way deer would come back. i see your point on HABITAT ,i dont think anyone says things are good for deer but if the DCNR is not going to cut trees or burn, no way pgc is going to let deer come back . my problem with all of this was all tags issued. this was way to get deer killed quick. your pint is if habitat gets better, then we will have deer, no way. as long as tags are issued,long 2 week doe season which is 1 now, early oct in-line/rifle season and throw in all coyotes that ARE killing fawns, penn state says bears too, SPROUL says COYOTES. I CANT SEE THINGS IMPROVING ON NUMBERS OF DEER EVEN IF HABITAT IS GOOD. i have 3 bucks, 3 doe and 2 fawns in my yard.. why, because i dont allow hunting even tho they try to shoot them out window of car with a crossbow which i caught them last year at 2 am.[:@] if you have place for deer to hide safely like pittsburgh, you will have deer. my food in my yard is no different than food at the farm at road hollow in kettle creek. yet, his farm has NO FAWNS,i wonder why. its coyotes/bears/and the no. 1 predator,the FAWN HUNTER. |
RE: More Spin From RSB
Remnard, outstanding post!!
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RE: More Spin From RSB
Here is what Chris Rosenbery (CR) had to say about the reason the herd was reduced.
CR: Deer numbers have come down in areas as a result of antlerless allocations. Many folks blame the 12-day concurrent season for that. This study will give us data on the effect of changing season lengths on antlerless harvest. |
RE: More Spin From RSB
ORIGINAL: sproulman problem is now, the FAWNS are being killed in great numbers by COYOTES. i only saw 2 fawns here in western clinton county this year:( Another revelation was how many were taken by black bears. In PA I would think that would be the case also seeing how there's a black bear behind every tree!!. |
RE: More Spin From RSB
ORIGINAL: mlo31351270 Remnard, outstanding post!! |
RE: More Spin From RSB
ORIGINAL: bluebird2 This was never about trophy hunting, but buck doe ratio. Do you ever wonder why you walk through the woods and see very little scraping and rubbing activity? There is no need for it in many areas of the country as the bucks have too many does to breed now. They don't need to advertise. That is a sure sign of a skewed buck doe ratio. Habitat is indeed a limiting factor in deer herd size. If you look at the understory in your wood lot you will see the browse line, where the deer have eaten as high as they can reach, standing on their hind leg You are dealing with theories and I am dealing with the facts provided by the deer in PA. As far as dealing with theories, I would beg to differ. I have been studying whitetail ecology and habitat enhancement since long before you knew what it was. I have been studying this stuff for close to thirty years now. |
RE: More Spin From RSB
Not so. The damage done by the herd actually limited the herds recoupment due to the devestation of the understory. Look up the kaibob plateau to fully understand what a deer herd can do to decimate a habitat. As far as dealing with theories, I would beg to differ. I have been studying whitetail ecology and habitat enhancement since long before you knew what it was. I have been studying this stuff for close to thirty years now. Are you familiar with the Brady Lake Browse Study, the 1984 " Clearcut Update" the 2006 DCNr ,"Browse Impact study" or the studies by David Declasta? |
RE: More Spin From RSB
[:@]
ORIGINAL: Remnard ORIGINAL: sproulman problem is now, the FAWNS are being killed in great numbers by COYOTES. i only saw 2 fawns here in western clinton county this year:( Another revelation was how many were taken by black bears. In PA I would think that would be the case also seeing how there's a black bear behind every tree!!. he is on the BASS PRO STAFF. he wrote article about finding 26 sets of fawn legs in 1 coyote den.[:@] |
RE: More Spin From RSB
ORIGINAL: bluebird2 Not so. The damage done by the herd actually limited the herds recoupment due to the devestation of the understory. Look up the kaibob plateau to fully understand what a deer herd can do to decimate a habitat. As far as dealing with theories, I would beg to differ. I have been studying whitetail ecology and habitat enhancement since long before you knew what it was. I have been studying this stuff for close to thirty years now. Are you familiar with the Brady Lake Browse Study, the 1984 " Clearcut Update" the 2006 DCNr ,"Browse Impact study" or the studies by David Declasta? |
RE: More Spin From RSB
Not so. The damage done by the herd actually limited the herds recoupment due to the devestation of the understory. Look up the kaibob plateau to fully understand what a deer herd can do to decimate a habitat. I am more than willing to have a civil conversation with anyone who knows how to have a civil conversation . As yet you have not demonstrated that ability. Would you like to start over and see if we can both learn from each other? |
RE: More Spin From RSB
Remnard said: "You're already making my head spin, and I think my stomach turn also. Why don't you just have civil conversation and knock off the cowboy keyboard act. I am here trying to learn more and I don't need your senile "I know more than you macho ****".
A few postsPreviously you said: "I have been studying whitetail ecology and habitat enhancement since long before you knew what it was. I have been studying this stuff for close to thirty years now" Perhaps you should take your own advice.... Till then, Yippee Ki Yi get along little dogie! (LOL);) Bb, I dont think Remnard is gonna learn anything from anyone. It seems he already knows it all.[8D] |
RE: More Spin From RSB
Bb, I dont think Remnard is gonna learn anything from anyone. It seems he already knows it all. |
RE: More Spin From RSB
Here is another prediction I made about the negative effects of HR and ARs. I predicted hunting pressure would drop like a rock in many areas because hunters would become disgusted with seeing so few deer and in my area that prediction has come true. I have never seen so few hunters on the first Sat. and there was very little shooting. I'd guess archery hunting was down by 20-30% and that rifle is down around 40-50%. If this continues the herd will increase significantly the next few years and the PGC will be back at square one.
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RE: More Spin From RSB
It will all balance out bluebird.The first light they get of the herd increasing they'll up the doe tags and or hand out dmaps like no tommorrow.
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RE: More Spin From RSB
That may be the case in some areas but it doesn't appear to be the case where I am hunting in 5C. We have loads of antlerless tags available but the hunters just aren't out there trying to fill them.
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RE: More Spin From RSB
ORIGINAL: bluebird2 That may be the case in some areas but it doesn't appear to be the case where I am hunting in 5C. We have loads of antlerless tags available but the hunters just aren't out there trying to fill them. |
RE: More Spin From RSB
That may be your opinion , but it certainly isn't a fact . It wouldn't make much sense for someone to drive to a different WMU with less deer, just to harvest a doe. Because of the low deer numbers our group of six hunters haven't harvested a doe the past 2 seasons and as yet we haven't taken a doe this year ,although the group has had numerous opportunities.
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RE: More Spin From RSB
It will all balance out bluebird.The first light they get of the herd increasing they'll up the doe tags and or hand out dmaps like no tommorrow  |
RE: More Spin From RSB
ORIGINAL: bluebird2 That may be the case in some areas but it doesn't appear to be the case where I am hunting in 5C. We have loads of antlerless tags available but the hunters just aren't out there trying to fill them. |
RE: More Spin From RSB
Few OW deer produce very few 2.5+ buck. Reduced hunting pressure during the concurrent season makes it harder to harvest an older buck. In our area we have a significant amount of land in safety zones which provides secure areas where no one can access those deer. Archers harvested over 50% of the buck in 5 C in 2007 ,before the concurrent season.
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RE: More Spin From RSB
Reduced hunting pressure during the concurrent season makes it harder to harvest an older buck. |
RE: More Spin From RSB
That could be your problem right there. You are locked in on old ways of stump sitting and letting others force the unnatural movement of deer past you. I have finally put together your anger issue with the GC. Less deer means less effective (fun) stump sitting Now that you have made a total fool of yourself, crawl back under your rock and lick your wounds. |
RE: More Spin From RSB
Now you wish to start a war of factions of hunters?
Placing stands to hunt the natural movements of deer is hit or miss, and anyone that does so is a very dedicated hunter, willing to invest huge blocks of time for the chance at a mature deer. Stump sitting along an escape route, knowing that hordes of orange blobs will push hordes of spikes and forkies past you in arms reach by 8 am opening day requires one only to wake up in time to be there. Commence to a lickin', yurself. |
RE: More Spin From RSB
Well bend over and kiss your butt goodbye , because over 800,000 hunters that sat on their favorite stump in 2007 didn't harvest a buck.
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RE: More Spin From RSB
So what are the ramifications of that, and what impact does that have on me?
I didn't tag a buck in '07. And as a matter of fact I passed on several legal bucks and yet I had no negative feeling toward my hunting in '07. I rather enjoyed the seasons as usual. I place the sharing of time in the woods with family above the tagging of a deer. Tearing out my tag is only the icing of the cake, and it takes a biggun' to get me shooting. |
RE: More Spin From RSB
So what are the ramifications of that, and what impact does that have on me? |
RE: More Spin From RSB
ORIGINAL: livbucks So what are the ramifications of that, and what impact does that have on me? I didn't tag a buck in '07. And as a matter of fact I passed on several legal bucks and yet I had no negative feeling toward my hunting in '07. I rather enjoyed the seasons as usual. I place the sharing of time in the woods with family above the tagging of a deer. Tearing out my tag is only the icing of the cake, and it takes a biggun' to get me shooting. no doubt in todays hunting deer in WMU2G,you better be out there to ENJOY yourself, not to harvest a buck every year or you will be very sad. this is worst year i have had in my life, I HAVE NOT SEEN A DEER in 8 days.:( i hunted HARDER this year than i did in last 3 years.:eek: |
RE: More Spin From RSB
ORIGINAL: bluebird2 So what are the ramifications of that, and what impact does that have on me? |
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