RE: More Spin From RSB
 

You contradicted your self: The "excess" harvest did work (you can't prove it didn't). They killed off the deer for a few years, the browse bounced back (you can't prove it didn't). The deer population responded accordingly. Besides, one of two years doesn't prove anything.

Yeah, you can exceed capacity, but do you want a bunch of 60-80 pound deer running around? How about an outbreak of blue tongue, that ought to help things along. Thats it, a deer under every tree, then you can brag about the 50 or 60 deer you see every time you go hunting, even though you can't harvest one. No wait , there goes that one 12" wide 8 point amoungst the herd of 24 does, bang....gottum!!!! Now what???

Dude, what is your "official" background??? I am a scientist, and a good friend does reseach on ruminants, and knows more than a little about what is nutritious for them. The people who know more than anyone are the ones who manage their own land. They try to keep ratio 3:1 does to bucks. Lower is even better, but the old does catch on quick and are 10 times smarter than a dumb 2.5-3.5 buck.

Cuernos1 - R.S. Bodenhorn, thanks for the reply, you guys obviously hunt, have seen the habit changes, and understand what is happening. Other people watch too much OLN, or haven't lived long enough to watch the deer population increase 10 fold in many areas since the 70s. Now its beginning to balance out some due to lack of agriculture in many areas. But they want it the "way it was" in the 90s when there were actually too many deer in many areas.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

Cnyguy, I have lived long enough and hunted long enouh,but please show me these areas where the deer population has increased ten fold.I'd really like to know where this has happened othen than urban area like 2B where they are virtually unhuntable.Please show me these areas so that I may be able to see this with my own eyes.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

I dont necessarily think that the deer population has increased tenfold anywhere (although 2B would seem to be close)

I would sat that the populations are noticeably larger now than in the 70's in 2D based on personal experience and in 2A and 2C based on observations from hunters old enough to have been here through those years and whose judgement I can trust.


Cnyguy

Bluebirds won't tell you his official background. A look back through the archives will show that he's told usthat he doesnt need any background or training to know how our deer herd should be managed.

He also feels qualified to dismiss the findings of experts like Dr James Kroll, Dr Dave Samuel, Charles Alsheimer, Dr Rosenberry and of course Dr Alt. He claims they are all misinformed, inept or biased.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

I agree the excessive harvests reduced the herd and I can also prove that the browse did not "bounce back and that the populations didn't respond accordingly. The DCNR 2006 Browse Impact Study showed only 24% of the plots surveyed had successful regeneration. The PGC studies still show regeneration in 2 F and 2G as rated as poor despite over 10 years of reduced herd and the population in 2G is now lower than it has been in over 50 years.
I deal with facts while you deal with theories and opinions that you can't support with facts. The fact is our adult breeding B/D ratio was 1:2.1 before ARs were implemented and now it is a little better than 1:2. But breeding rates and recruitment still declined because as Dr. Rosenberry said there were always enough buck to breed the does in a reason time period.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

Bottom line is that Bluebirds expertise is self declared. His "facts" generally have roots in realtruth but are intentionally taken as snippets out of context or presented without the necessary background. It's an old tactic most often used by politicians. It would'nt surprise me if thats his true background.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

Wrong again!!! I never claimed to be an expert or to have an expertise in deer management.
All I am doing is using PGC data and reports to show What has happened as a result of HR and ARs. The data and reports are not taken out of context and are available for all to see on the PGC web site.

Any time you think you are up to it , please feel free to post an example where I posted manipulated data like RSB uses to mislead and deceive on a routine basis.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

Did we need less deer in Pa?Absolutley
Did some areas get reduced too much?Most likely but that's easily corrected.
Did we have a breeding ecology problem?Not in my opinion.
Are the bucks getting bigger?I have no doubt that a guy has a better chance at killing a noce buck than he did 10 years ago.
Is the regeneration looking better?Absolutely.It's actually amazing in many places.

We needed less deer and that's exactly what we got.I live in the WMU with the lowest deer densities in the state and I consistantly find and harvest multiple deer each year on public land.I spent all of last weekend and about 4 hours yesterday morning checking out different areas of Moshannon state forest that had an average dd of 10 dpsm.I saw lots of deer each day and tons of sign.Ididn't find it everywhere though.There were vast areas without any tracks at all.Ironically,Those areas will be loaded with hunters on monday because you can see far.Those same hunters will be cursing the PGC for ruining their hunting.Find the areas with preferred food and cover and you'll find plenty of deer.A novel concept but one that works consistantly for me.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

I can't find one word in your post I would change or anything to add.

Congrats DougE. You have said it all while using just a few well chosen words.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

I point out examples of your distortions daily. The archives are chock full of examples. You then toss out more smoke and mirrors. You seem to thrive on it. I'm packing for deer camp and I'm declining to play your little ongoing game today.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

I have a buddy from Phillyon another message board that has a camp up here.He despises the PGC and DCNR for what he feels they did to Pa's hunting.His camp is right smack dab in the area's worst habitat.This guy is a good hunter and really puts alot of time in during hunting season but constantly complains about "No Deer".Interestingly,I had to meet my ferrier at 11:00am to have him pull the shoes on one of my horses.This guy has a camp just a few miles away from my buddy.He killed a 130" buck this year with a bow and another dmap doe with a muzzleloader.I asked him if he's been seeing many deer and he claimed,that he's seeing alot on public land.Around here,the food sources change weekely and you have to know ehere to look at different times of the year.You can't continue to hunt the same areas of poor habitat and expect to be successful.I boggles my mind when I hear about guys hunting for a week and seeing no deer and few tracks.Why would you hunt an area that you knew had no deer?

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

Doug says:
"Did we need less deer in Pa?Absolutley" In areas. Wegot it everywhere however. Undefendable blanket slaughter.

"Did some areas get reduced too much?Most likely"

Absolutely. Nearly everywhere in fact.

"but that's easily corrected. "

VERY easily. But isnt being, and isnt gonna be anytime soon, and most likely not at allthanks to pgcs new allies whom they are catering to.

"Did we have a breeding ecology problem?Not in my opinion. "

Agreed. So we both agree pgc lied on that one.

"Are the bucks getting bigger?I have no doubt that a guy has a better chance at killing a noce buck than he did 10 years ago."

Disagree 100%. The recent scoring sessions did not show it. Norhasmost observations. The AVERAGE size ofbucks and percentage of bigger bucks in the herd most definately increased. Thanks to extreme herd reduction, overall numbers of big bucks definately did not. And when speaking of odds improving, they havent.

"Is the regeneration looking better?Absolutely.It's actually amazing in many places."

Perhaps in some of what were the absoluteworst areas. Here there is absolutely no difference.Habitat in2A never was poor in the first place, and many other areas of the state as well,and there was nothing to correct other than to take very cautious preventative measures.--Its not happening here though. The ow herd was reduced by 50+% in this wmu, then Despite claims of stabilization for a few years now, the doe allocations and harvest goalshave been and arehigher than those that were used to actually reduce the herd previously.[:'(]

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

I think they do it, Doug, just because a lot of them are stuck in the past and want the "good old days" back. They just can't cope with the fact that things have changed, and turn mean and sour towards those they feel are responsible for it.
I really feel most of them know there is much better hunting usually a short drive from their old haunts, but are just too stubborn and pig-headed to do it. They will just never get it.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

But not in 2G ,at least according to the experts and 20 years of research. WMU 2G was at it's goal deer density in 2000 and reducing the herd below the goal did not improve breeding rates and recruitment.
No it is not, as long as theissue enough doe tgas to keep the herd stable or reduce it even more.
There is no evidence that the bucks are getting bigger as you claim. ARs may have actually decreased the rack size of our average 2,5+ buck.
The experts at DCNR and the PGC disagree with that claim.

If those hunters concentrated on the few areas where there is a decent population , they would reduce the herd in those areas to 5 or 6 DPSM and the hunting next year would be worse than ever. Obviously you can't comprehend hunters are already harvesting all the deer the herd can produce on a sustainable basis ,but I am not surprised since you have been brainwashed by RSB and your DCNR friends.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

"I think they do it, Doug, just because a lot of them are stuck in the past and want the "good old days" back. They just can't cope with the fact that things have changed, and turn mean and sour towards those they feel are responsible for it."

Or maybe they just dont think the entire state needed unwarranted blanket across the board reduction in some areas for no reason at all?

Maybe they do not like the fact our hunter numbers are declining over twice the national average thanks to this unsound deer program?

Perhaps they find all the lies and conflicting data hard to swallow?

Naaa. We are all just "sour". All 80 to 90% of our hunting population who know the pgc deer plan is a fatally flawed joke!(LOL);)

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

Maybe that description also applies to you, since you apparently can't comprehend that if those hunters moved to a new area and harvested more deer the herd would be reduced even more and there would be fewer buck and doe to be harvested the following year.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

Gee bluebird, I guess that just makes too much sense. :D apparently everyone should get a deer by going to the areas where there is a never-ending supply, only to end the supply and then worry about it the following year!

God forbid we do something radical like ask for more responsible management across more of the state instead?:D

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

That is why PGC supporters are such a special breed. What they believe doesn't have to make sense and as you pointed out they seem to believe there is an unlimited supply of deer to be harvested, if hunters would move more and hunt harder. Apparently they believe if hunters had harvested 13,200 antlerless in 2007 instead of 6,600 it would have no effect on this years harvests. That level of denial of the truth is equivalent to the cult mentality of many fringe religious groups.

Here is why RSB is the front runner for the exalted position of the village idiot.
Apparently RSB thinks the herd should increase recruitment to compensate for the antlerless allocations, even though the fawns that are born after the antlerless allocations were set, were conceived the previous fall. Obviously RSB doesn't have a clue about how our herd is managed and he is doing a grave disservice to the PGC by posting his nonsense.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

Well, if you want to quit deer hunting to satisfy your beliefs, please feel free to do so. In the meantime, the rest of us who can still manage to harvest a deer without wailing and decrying the end of the sport will be happy to give you some more statistics you can bend and twist for your own behalf.
I'm off to 2G this weekend.....Wanna bet some venison comes home with me??

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

And the fact that you can harvest a deer in 2g is supposed to be some kind of proof that the plan s working. for your information in 2007 11,700 harvested a deer in 2G and that tells us absolutely nothing about whether the plan is working or if it is a total failure. Until you stop basing your assessment of the plan on your personal success you will continue to be an uninformed , misguided , ignorant supporter of the PGC failed policies.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

"without wailing and decrying the end of the sport"

I didnt see anyone wailing, just stating facts. I also didnt see anyone make that claim about ending our sport. Although now that you mention it, one thing that supports that theory is the PGC license sales figures since this plan has been in effect.:D Rate of decline over double the national average.;)

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

That is all the PGC supporters have to rely on, mindless accusations with no basis in act. They are really a pathetic bunch of mind numbed robots that can do nothing more than repeat the PGC propaganda.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

That is about the finest example of the pot calling the kettle black that I have seen in a long time.

Just because the facts of deer management are too far beyond your level of knowledge and comprehension doesn’t mean they aren’t still the correct facts. The most knowledgeable deer management professionals in the world have reviewed and endorsed the direction of Pennsylvania’s deer management program, so just who are you to be telling people they are wrong and you, a totally untrained and unqualified person, knows more then they do?

Why should people believe anything you have to say over the word of the trained professionals? Why don’t you work on correcting the problems within the medical profession and do something even more useful, like saving lives, since you obviously know so much more then highly educated and trained professionals?

You SIR, in my honest opinion are nothing more then a fraud and a flim-flam artist set on a mission to destroy the deer management program simply because of the misguided agenda of a handful of radicals that formed their own cult because they couldn’t have their way within the sportsmen clubs where their votes couldn’t overcome those votes from more logical and rational people. You and your ilk have caused more harm to hunting in this state then any anti-hunting group ever has. The real problem now is that even though your cult is falling apart you still aren’t wise enough to give up your misguided promotion of their agenda.

Now, I have to ask any logical thinking person just what reason would the Game Commission have for not doing what the professionals are fully convinced to be the best possible direction for the long term management of our deer herds? The answer is very simple they would have nothing to gain and everything to lose, so what makes anyone think they are doing the wrong thing? It is the deer themselves, combined with measuring their food supply, that are providing the direction of the deer management program. Doesn’t it make more sense to put your trust in the deer and the trained professionals that monitor the data the deer provide then to listen to a handful of screw-balls that have absolutely no training in deer management or even any type of wildlife or resource management?

Are there fewer deer? Yes. Are there still good huntable populations of deer in all management units? Yes. Will things improve in the future? Yes, but only if you allow the professionals to fix the real problems instead of listening to the screw-balls trying to tear the deer management program apart because they have no idea what the real deer management problems and issues are.

R.S. Bodenhorn

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

RSB, you seem to put yourself on the same level as these highly educated and trained professional, but the only thing we know about you is that your a WCO.

Please tell us where your four year degree is from and what you majored in, plus all the additional advanced training and sheepskins you have.

When you started working for the PGC what position did you hold and what year it was, all the advancement you had over the years until you became a WCO and how long you have now held that position. Also how many employees reported to you under each position you held.

At which position did you have to give up your security under the statecontract for workers such asPen DOT and clerical workers.

We know your postition is protecting the over400 speciesthat the PGC is responsible for, it would be nice to see how your expertize ended up being deer rather than bear or Indiana Bats.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

Coalcracker,so you are a brain surgeon?? ... a college graduate?? a high school grad?? GED holder??

how about this .. education is great.. but because someone went to school forbusiness and has chosen to self educate through reading and seminars and other sources they are not educated?? I would beg to differ..

I have two masters degrees not in wild life but in business and probability and statistics.. and because of that if I read real college level info referencing a subject and the data is conclusive I am not a river rat specialist.. BS.. with two grad degrees and an under grad I can fully understand info..what bothers me is when I have to debate something with someone who does not get the data and reverts back to BS rather than accept the numeric facts.. Not that you have made reference to anything pro or con but your questioning of anothers education so that you can disspell their conclusion is weak..

We have debated this for too long.. the deer herd is less how much so no one here can tell... bucks are bigger but that does not seem to matter.. but when anyone brings in something like carrying capacity of the land some knuckle head comes back withan arguement that RSB is only telling a half truth or some other halfbaked explanation....there are too many varibles to deduce an outcome... RSB has been trying to stand his ground and there have been a few of us who have heard him loud n clear.. and we agree...

If we are to go along this route of questioning, then we would have to check everyones education level before we discuss things... It scares me that we are all allowed to vote but many of us never check on the person we vote for? Murtha.. ?? OMG.. am I a racist or a redneck he seems to think so but I am probably better educated than he is.. but he is re-elected..

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

Based on your past history , it appears that it is you who lacks the knowledge and the ability to understand deer management. To prove my point let's compare our records on the subject.

1. You predicted buck harvests would return to normal after the first year of ARs and I predicted they would continue to decrease until the the PGC stopped reducing the herd and I was right.
2. You predicted ARs would double the number of 2.5+ buck and the number of 8 pts. and I predicted it would never happen and I was right.
3. You predicted breeding rates and recruitment would increase and offset the negative effects of herd reduction. I predicted increased breeding rates wouldn't come close to off setting the negative effects of HR and I was right.
4. You claimed there weren't enough bucks to breed the does in a timely manner resulting in too many late born fawns. I said there were enough bucks to breed the doe before AR and Dr. Rosenberry agreed. Once again I was right.
5. You claimed the high antlerless harvests were not responsible for reducing the herd and I provided proof from the PGC that the antlerless harvests did in fact reduce the herd. I also pointed out how you used 5 year averages to mislead and decieve.
6. You claim the plan has been reviewed and endorse by experts when no such review has occurred. I provided quotes that show the experts do not favor ARS as the best method for improving the age structure. So ,once again ,you were wrong and I was right.

So you can call me anything that floats your boat, but you can't refute the facts that my analysis of the plan was right on target, while your analysis was light years away from being accurate

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

......Hey Coalcracker.....Just what is your inference to Penn DOT and clerical workers??? Are you inferring they are some sort of sub-species in your peckiing order, or what? Are they not able to hold viable opinions also? Comments like that only serve to further alienate people to your "cause". But that's all right...just keep it up......your colors are beginning to show vividly.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

It is not me but RSB who keeps talking about educated professionals and if youdon't have a degree in Biologyhe keep throwing insults about beinguneducated. Now if you are a Penn DOT worker or have a clerical position, I'm sure in RSB's eyes you are not versed in wildlife not matter how muchknowledge you have gained over time. I do know that Penn DOT workers, clerical positions and many other jobs are covered by a contract with the state, but not knowing the official name I had to use an example.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

My educational background has nothing to do with wildlife management. In fact I'm the first onein my family to go beyond high school. I didn't pick the name coalcracker just for a joke, I'm very proud of where I came from and never look down on people that have to work for a living.

My father ran a drag line on the strip mines, my grandfatheralso ran drag line when he came north from Philly. My grandfather on my mothers side was killed in the mines when she was seven and my great grandfather on that side was a blacksmith in the mines when they used donkies. As I'm 66 years old, most people my fathers age quit school when they were in the fifth or sixth grade to pick the rock out of the coal in the colleries. I also grew up with many people that their parents spoke broken english, but I had no problem understand them and they were intelligent people.

Now you can look down on me if you like, but I'm proud of where I came from and what I have accomplished in my lifetime. If your looking for a snob, you'll have to look elsewhere.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

...........The fact of the matter is that once again, you speak without knowledge. You have lumped a group of people together without the first clue of what you are talking about. "One size fits all" ideaology. Talk about "blanket coverage"....Wow. Once again you have opened your mouth and inserted your foot.
I wish for you to tell us at what positions Penn DOT workers, or state workers in general have "contract coverage" with the state as you have stated.
Would you also inform us as to the points in employment with the state in general are covered by protectionism?? If any? Define it for us.
Your empty can rattles continuously once again.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

What do you think I am, a contract negotiator, you ask me these stupid question when I already told you that the name of this organization was unknown to me. You should have enough sense to know that if I couldn't know the name, there is no way that I'd know the contents, if I'm rattling a can, then your head is rattling.

On the other hand if you knew what you were talking about, you would know that this organization was not created for protectionism. For your information, there was a time whenever the political party would change, many people would lose their jobs and be replaced by those of the new party. If there was any protectionism, it was to protect qualified people from politicians handing out jobs to those that worked for their election. This ends your lesson of the day. I knew a lot of good people last their jobs by both parties.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

............and your can rattles louder than ever..........I'm done with your inability to answer a direct question. I'm going hunting.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

"Why should people believe anything you have to say over the word of the trained professionals?"

When the "paid professionals" are of dubious intent,they are affiliated with VERY unfriendly to the hunter"entitities",and they have been proven to have lied all along, and just about every claim theyve made has beenproven false byTHEYRE OWN DATA... I think a betterquestion would be why shouldwe believeanything at all from them?

"Why don’t you work on correcting the problems within the medical profession and do something even more useful, like saving lives, since you obviously know so much more then highly educated and trained professionals?"

I dont think the cure for cancer is quite as simple as the cure for what has driven our deer herd into the ground. I promise though, if I see them attempting to worsen the problem of cancer by spreading it more,we'll make mention of our lack of support for them!;):D

"You SIR, in my honest opinion are nothing more then a fraud and a flim-flam artist"

Directed at Dr. Alt?

"Now, I have to ask any logical thinking person just what reason would the Game Commission have for not doing what the professionals are fully convinced to be the best possible direction for the long term management of our deer herds?"

None are convinced. You point to a few complete extremist clowns that have other agendas. There is not a state in the nation that has gone to the rediculous slaughterextent Pa has, and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM has biologists. So who is wrong? Some of the best biologists in the country that are not from Pa? Or Pa's that were hand selected by extreme conservation oriented biodiversity seeking commissioners?

"The answer is very simple they would have nothing to gain and everything to lose, so what makes anyone think they are doing the wrong thing?"

How would they lose? They are an independent agency and basically untouchable.That is a huge problem initself an needs to be addressed.

"It is the deer themselves, combined with measuring their food supply, that are providing the direction of the deer management program. Doesn’t it make more sense to put your trust in the deer"

They say they are breeding at same rates they were before, in the same time frame and carrying just as many fawns. What more do you need them to tell you? Do they need to learn to speak english and tell you that you are full of beans?

"and the trained professionals that monitor the data the deer provide then to listen to a handful of screw-balls that have absolutely no training in deer management or even any type of wildlife or resource management? "

Which is better A handful of screwballs vs. trained professionals with a very anti-deer, terrible for our sport agenda? Id say those scales are balanced fairly evenly brother.;)

"Will things improve in the future? "

No. No reason for them to feel any differently in the future as long as pgc is run by the same types that it has been for the last several years. Unless you meant better fortheir new "friends"because of even fewer deer perhaps?

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

I'll take the screwballs. In fact, as disillusioned as I am with this deer program, I are one.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

Bluebird,
Since you know so much about deer management, in what circumstance would this be possible?

Answer, then I refer you to the study that shows how or why this can happen.

One thing I do agree with you on is AR's are simply a "feel good" response to a bigger problem. There are many states that have never practiced AR's and have incredible deer populations with monster bucks.

The 10 fold number I talked about was Ohio...23,431 deer killed in 1976. In the 2006-2007 season 237,316. Seasons now run from Oct to Jan, hence 06-07.
There was no "late" season hunting in 1976 to carry into 1977. There were only 22k killed in 1977 and 1978.

Many other midwest states have had population increases similar to this, including Ind, Ill, Iowa. Pa has always had a lot of deer. My brothers used to hunt Potter county and kill deer every year, rarely did the bucks go much over a 100 lbs (field dressed) even if they did have 6-8 points. The "dozens" of does they saw looked like they came out of a cookie cutter, 60-80 lbs.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

What is the "this" to which you are referring?
What were the antlerless harvests compared to the buck harvest during that period? did the harvests exceed recruitment or were they much less than recruitment? Just throwing out a few harvest data stats tells us little or nothing about what really happened in Ohio!!
So your brothers were satisfied with shooting small 1.5 buck and fawns. That's just fine with me , but what is your problem with your brothers?

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

"This" is the quote I posted about browse recovery. Please explain why the browse does not recover when there are few deer.

It doesn't matter what the ratio was in 1976 compared to 2006. The management needs change with the herd. Ratios will have to adjusted at times.

I have no problem with my brothers, I love them very much. Both of them have forgotten more about deer management then you will ever know. I was trying to point out that your deer have been overpopulated for years. Puny bucks and undersized does. Son, some of the bucks they killed were 2.5-3.5, none compared in body size to deer in herds less than a hundred miles away. They quit hunting the region because the deer weren't worth the $100 or so for tags.

Just because there is a high population of deer and they are not starving, doesn't mean the herd is completely healthy. There are studies the prove this...lots of little deer is a BAD thing.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

My son purchased 90 acres last year and built a home on it. We posted the land and didn't even bother to hunt it, all that was there were spikes and tiny Y bucks. This is located in Newark Valley, which isn't far from you, I met another hunter on one of these sights that was so helpful to us that he is the only one that has been hunting it for the last two years. My son put a three points to a side limit on it, this year my friend from up has seen a six pointer with a wide rack and he knows of an eight pointer and also a few other bucks around. He didn't shoot the six because it was first thing in the morning on the first day of rifle, he also doesn't want to harvest doe, with is a big plus as far as we are concerned.

I see your sportsmen up there are no better than anywhere else, last year this friend of mine had to chase the local off because they always hunted there. As he is from Newark Valley he knew most of them, they hunt everybody else land and save their own land for later in the week. This year I had a camera stolen from on top of the hill, my son told my friend to arrest anybody he finds on the property.

I'm reallynot too please with the numbers and quality of deer up there, I've already invested over $15,000 in equipment, plus seeds, fertilizer and expenses travelling the three hours up there to work on the food plots. There is nothing in that area for the deer to eat, most if not all the fields are weeds and grass, which they seem to bail for horses and cattle.

Based on what i see,it is no wonder your brothers came to the N/C to shoot a deer. This friend of mine came down to my place last year, shot a nice eight pointer and said it was the biggest bodied deer he ever had gotten and thesecond largest rack. He'll be coming down again tomorrow and will have a great chance of harvest a nice buck,rack on this one will put last year buck to shame.

Moral of this story is, doe hunter aren't welcome at my place in PA or my sons in N.Y.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

Browse may certainly increase as the herd is reduced. But, there will be no significant increase in the browse in stands of pole and saw timber because shade, not deer ,is the limiting factor.
When you use terms like ,"completely healthy" and ." lots of little deer' shows you don't know enough about deer management to discuss it intelligently. Who determines how many little deer is a bad thing? What criteria do you use to determine if the deer are healthy? Do you know what criteria the PGC uses to establish herd health? Do you know how they establish the carrying capacity of the habitat.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

Actually it was quite easy to deuce what the outcome would be as the herd was reduced by 50%. All one had to do is look at the history of the herd and harvests to predict the outcome, since it was simply impossible for increased breeding rates and recruitment to compensate for the loss of a significant percentage of the adult doe. That is why Alt's and RSB's predictions were wrong and my predictions were right. They told hunters what they wanted to hear while I based my predictions on the facts and reality.

RE: More Spin From RSB
 

, You continually quote research from PGC. You know, there are other states with deer, and they have done research, too. Maybe you ought to expand your horizons. Other studies have proven deer populations can exist in a conditions where population exceeds carrying capacity. They also prove the deer gradually get smaller (weight wise), the longer this continues. About the browse issue, you indicate the browse getting worse, yet you want the deer population to increase??? Bad idea. Ever thought about this, the fewer deer are eating more of their prefered browse, thereby slowing the comeback of some of the food. Plain and simply, some of it is aging and will never comeback, which I pointed out to you in previous posts. Fewer deer eating more browse is a good thing, it helps them to obtain the genetically predisposed weight, which to many game biologists is a healthier deer. Again, read studies from other states.

Its up to the individual if they want to shoot does, but every state that has shown it has to be done to some degree. There are lots of variables that biologist must look at, some things are unforeseen and can't be fully accounted for. All in all, they do a very good job. I don't think the deer population anywhere is going extinct anytime soon. But, lots of does is not necessarily a healthy herd.