RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

The better viable solution is for those hunters who want to harvest a 2.5+ buck is for those hunters to pass on all 1.5 buck and harvest a buck that meets their personal standards. Why should those hunters that would be satisfied with a 1.5 buck be forced to pass on that buck when there is no scientific evidence that ARs improve breeding rates, productivity or shorten the breeding permit.

Furthermore, why would anyone support ARs when the research and field results after 12 years of ARs in Miss. showed that rack sizes decreased? In addition, all the research I have seen by Dr. Kroll and others ,indicate that 1.5 spike bucks are inferior for the rate of antler development. this is confirmed by Dr. Williams in his article,"Spikes Are Not Inferior,or are They?"

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

1st I would like to say that NYC Hunt A M has made some valid points about AR's...like..ummm...uhh...wait a minute...no..no actually you have made no valid point as to why you would like to control a sport that is completely fine right now. I completely disagree with you about AR. My son will be deer hunting in 3 years. If AR is the answer to a better deer herd, than I would like you to be the one take my son deer hunting and tell him that that 1st buck he has seen in the woods is off limits because he is not as good as the other ones. His headgear is not impressive enough. You tell him that he has to let it walk and wait for a bigger one. I want you to do this because I sure as heck am not going to be the one to dissapoint a new hunter. I do not want to be the one responsible for another young hunter leaving the sport because NYS has too many restrictions. How about we tackle some other problems. What about the sillyDMP lottery. Why should I apply for aDMP and get denied but 4 weeks later someone else applies for the same area and gets it. Now I have to wait and try to get it in the "OOPS WE HAVE NOT SOLD ENOUGH DMP'S FIRE SALE IN NOVEMBER" now thats a real topic. AR's have been tried and have always and will always fail. It should be called Trophy Restriction's because that is all it is.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

You talk about Game Management. There are enough hunters in New York who are happy when they MANAGE to shoot GAME! AR's has nothing to do with game management. If you have done so much of your supposed research you would see that deer biologists do not support AR's. They support shooting of older class bucks.The size of the antlers has nothing to do with helping the deer herd.

Hey, while you are at it why don't you try to get restrictions on the size of a coyote you can shoot. Or better yetTHATGREY SQUIRREL MUST HAVE AT LEAST A 10" TAIL. Don't shoot that Turkey. His spurs are not long enough.

You make me chuckle with your silly little antler restrictions. If you want trophy bucks go buy yourself a piece of land, put up a HIGH FENCE, grow your food plots, get your buck to doe ratio to 1 to 1 and manage your own herd like they do in Texas or any of those other trophy buck slaughter pens.

Hunting is intended to keep the game numbers down so we are not overrun by animals in our city's. Huntingwas never intended to be for trophy's. It was and is for survival.
LEAVE NEW YORK'S HERD ALONE!!!

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

I know I don't poke my head in here much, but this I just couldn't resist. I grew up in the Catskills, in Windham specifically, and have hunted both restricted and non-restricted antlers. Personally I think the antler restrictions are a joke. I don't know about most hunters in NYC, (actually I do but I'm doing my best to keep my comments to myself) but I don't hunt for the antlers. You can't eat them, so they're of no use to me.

You're not talking about the quality of the deer population, you're talking about the quality of the rack you want to shoot. You can dress it up any way you want, but its that simple. There is absolutely no correlation between the age of a buck and his genes, so whatever age he passes them on at is inconsequential. I know what you're going to say next, so don't get ahead of me. You're thinking "well if they don't survive to mate, how will they pass on their genes?" Young bucks are removed from the gene pool every day and in much larger numbers than a typicalhunting seasoncould ever impose. They're hit by vehicles, killed by other animals, or simply never make it to adulthood for a multitude of reasons. So if you were really in it for just the betterment of gene quality, you'd also be looking into providing safe passage for deer across New York's highways, the eradication of predators and disease control/research among the populations.

What we really need to do is educate the hunting population, specifically those from the City who are unfamiliar with deer and hunting in general. With proper education and the knowledge that trophy hunting is unacceptable perhaps the deer population will improve.Several timesI've taken a trip through the woods to find a deer's body with its head cut off during the season. I've followed blood trails that led to a decomposing body that was left to lay intact. Now there is no way to prove who did this, but I can largely assume they are from out of town since I know just about every hunter here and also know that the mass majority of hunters here hunt for food. Despite the facade put on by our brochures, vacation ads, and general misinterpretation of the area as the playground of NYCwe are a very poor community. If you take a trip on any back road you'll realize this. Antler restrictions do nothing but place a restriction on the meat that can be put on a table here. Due to the increase in taxes many homeowners have been forced to sell their property, leaving them only the option to hunt public land which is overrun with idiots, so their chance of seeing a large buck is slim.

Now I'm not here to sing a sob story, but I'm sure this is the case in more communities than just mine. You ask for all of this proof, and for facts, well we've given you cases and reasons why your ideas will not work. You've given us very little. So I would like you to provide us with case studies of areas where this has been effective other than "we've got scientists meeting on it."

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Asa matter of fact, Dr Kroll just published an article pointing out the flaws in the Mississippi reseasrch in last months issue of North American Whitetail (page 105) He went on to say that AR's are less than perfect but can be an effective starting tool in good deer management

To you New York guys on either side of this issue.... be very wary of anything posted by Bluebird2 (aka deadeer, ddear, beenthere and others) He usually is busy hijacking Pennsylvania threads with his campaign against AR's and adequate doe harvests. Whatever side you support on the AR issue, be wary of Bluebirds posts. He has been banned underseveral different screen names on this forum for his out of context statements, distortions and twisting of the facts on PA threads. (those words from a moderator, not me)

If you support AR's, fine. Don't let BB2's postschange your mindwithout checking the facts out. Often his "facts" are his own conclusions that happen to be 100% opposite to that of the respected wildlife biologist community

If you are against AR's, thats fine too! But don't wind up embarassing yourself by accepting and using facts posted here by BB2. Anyone knowledgable will usually tear those facts apart.

AR's arent perfect IMHO. There are points to be made on both sidesand I didn't stop by to enter into a debate that concerns a state where I havent and probably won't hunt for deer. This is your business guys! I however did think you guys deserve to know who just entered your debate and what his agenda is.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Actually what was flawed was Dr. Kroll's analysis of the results from Miss. Here is what Dr. Kroll said about Dr. Demarais study.

"However, since the Demarias study looked at the effects of imposing a point limitation, the concern seemed to be that this allowed "inferior" yearling bucks with spike antlers to reproduce. Of course it was assumed that spike yearlings are genetically inferior, but that premise has not been proved."

The truth is Dr. Demarais never claimed spike bucks were genetically inferior ,nor did he claim that the reduced rack sizes were due to a negative effect of ARs on the genetics of the herd. Instead , he made it quite clear that the decrease in rack sizes was simply due to high grading, which is defined as harvesting the best buck in each age class.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Here is another interesting bit of info from Dr. Kroll's article which BT failed to mention. Based oh his 35 years ,Dr. Kroll said the herds,"want" a a sex ratio of one buck to two does. The funny thing is that was the B/D ratio of our PA herd before ARs were implemented , Therefore , ARs were not needed to improve the B/D ratio.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

"I would like you to be the one take my son deer hunting and tell him that that 1st buck he has seen in the woods is off limits because he is not as good as the other ones."

Jimbodwb - Your attempt at being glib only exaccerbateshow little you know!
It saddens me to no end that you will be the one taking your son into the woods for his first hunt and you apparently know so little about the AR rules or anything else regarding deer biology. The note below is verbatim from the DEC website. Sad, that you think you are knowledgable enough on the subject but come off like a buffoon when you obviosly don't know what is involved!
Important: Hunters under 17 years of age are exempt from the three point requirement.

[hr]

bluebird2 -- you really do owe conservation an apology -- as knowledgable as you are, you twist and distort the facts and put a negative spin on everything you partially ingest.

We learned a lot of good things from the Missisippi study. That yes, when antler restrictions are part of the equation too long they can begin a negative cycle. All along, I have said that they are a good beginning point towards better herd management.

You say things like there is "no scientific evidence that ARs improve breeding rates, productivity or shorten the breeding permit."

THAT as you well know is not the same as saying that a balanced age structure amongst the bucks insures better breeding cycles. You darn well know that AR's give those younger bucks at least an extra year to be a bigger part of that healthier breeding cycle.

Shame on you!

[hr]

huntingirl89- thank you for sharing your opinion -- but please do not pretend to know what I am talking about -- don't you dare pretend to know what I am thinking! Not once in this discussion was GENE management mentioned until you brought it up. Your assumption about who is poaching in your town is unbelievably naive and your supposed knowledge of the need to educate city folk is assinine. Do yourself a favor and run to the library and do a little bit of research -- better yet talk to your local encon officer about who is cutting up your deer!

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

That is not what we learned from Miss. since rack sizes decreased after just 4 years of ARs.
There is no evidence to support your claim that a balanced buck age structure insures a better breeding cycle. having a higher percentage of older buck in the herd did not shorten the breeding period as predicted and there is no evidence that dominant breeding by older bucks produced by ARs , lead to healthier deer or bigger bucks.

BTW, you can forget about the ,"shame on you " comments , since they have absolutely no effect on me. The shame lies at the foot of QDM supporters that claim we have to protect 1.5 buck to produce a better breeding cycle, to justify producing more bucks with trophy size racks,even though there is no evidence to support that claim.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Deleted previous post because I shouldn't need to name drop to make myself appear more credible. In the rules of engagement if you will, it makes one's own argument appear shoddy unless backed-up by a more sufficient name. I don't need names.

IF you say this has nothing to do with genetics, then what does it have to do with? Since you obviously don't want stronger genes in the herd, and don't care if the bucks pass on their genetic material (which would eventually lead to larger bucks due to the dominant males being selected for in the mating process), then all you are left with is antlers. Therefore, you defeated yourself in your own argument. Not to mention you getting very defensive and hauty makes you appear less credible and frankly someone I wouldn't ally myself with on any side of the argument.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

:eek:
i agree with you, i am not from ny.

AR program here in pa. is great thing,it allows bucks to get a little older and we all like the bigger horns too..

BUT the AR will not work like it should as long as kids 12/16 are allowedto shoot the little bucks before they get bigger,too much BROWN ITS DOWN WITH A KIDS TAG with adults.THAT IS HAPPENING.

HR is big failure, in my opinion,it went TO FAR in wmu2g.:eek:

when you hunt miles and miles of land and maybe see 2 tracks,thats not good.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

I find It a bit surprising that so many guys that support ARs are opposed to herd reduction. I guess they don't realize ARs was the bait Alt used to get hunters to shoot more doe. I suppose they also never stopped to think that ARs in a stable herd ,also reduces the buck harvest and total harvest compared to a non-AR herd.


For example, if ARs save 30K buck , around 540 additional buck would be lost to non-hunting mortality each year. Also, since 30K buck were added to the herd that means there will be 30K fewer doe producing fawns, so the total sustainable harvest will drop by around 30K. And, since half of those fawns would be BB, the sustainable antlered buck harvest would decrease by over 10K buck ,just due to ARs. The number of bucks lost to these factors far out weigh those lost by junior hunters harvesting non-AR legal buck.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

First of all, I want to know if you are actually intelligent or if you sit bythe computer with A dictionary looking for words you cannot pronounce and try to include them in your repiles.

Second, you are actually correct on something finally. I do not know enough about the rules for AR in NYS because I do not live or hunt where there are AR's.

Where you are wrong is that I do know a little something about deer biology. I do know that there has never been and will never be a successful study done to show that AR's improve the deer herd.

Last but not least, when someone comes out with a recipe for good tastingantlers then I might buy intothe philosophy of AR's. Until then, SHOOT EM' IF THEY GOT EM'!!

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

You are still ducking my question. How do you plan to get your NYC representatives to go along with your agenda?

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

NYC hunters..................:(

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Hi all,

This has been an interesting thread & I have learned a few things here. The one question I have in regard to the studies in play here is,

has anyone taken in to account that there are far fewerhunters out in the woods? This must be effecting the herd. I would bet with fuel prices as high as they are, the Deer take this year will be at its lowest levels on record.

20 years ago when I started hunting you would see lots of folks in broncos and blazers heading upstate & opening day was like a war zone. Sadly today, I'm lucky to see 2 or 3 hunters driving up & only a few shots in the distance.. (it's bitter sweet actually, I'm seeing more deer now that there is nobody out hunting)

How do we increase the human herd in the woods? Complicating the rules of engagement will drive people away from hunting IMO.

Looking forward to responses.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

southpaw,

bittersweet it is... as much as I like to have the entire mountain to myself I also like to see some fellow hunters along the way to share a story with once in a while.... seems like far and few between anymore.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

sothpaw, i cant speak for ny.

in pa. in WMU2G,reason we dont have hunters like in 60s/70s is because of LACK OF DEER.

its not worth coming here, spending money,license etc if they dont see a deer for weeks.

HR went to far in wmu2g.

we used to fill camps, most are closed in deer season,whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

OVERHARVEST OF DOE AND KILLING FAWNS.ITS ALL ABOUT MEAT AND THATS COMING TO END.[:@]

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

You are so right! It's a totally different ballgame than it was 20 or 30 years ago. I think the biggest problem is access to private land. It just isn't easy to find places anymore. Most of the bigger properties have been sold off and made into smaller lots. It isn't the same hunting on a 10 acre spread, eventhough lots of people do. Any bigger properties that remain have been leased off to clubs or larger groups of hunters. There is a good deal of public land in NY, but in general the hunting can be better on private land and there is always the safety issue that is in back of many hunters minds. Adding to all this is that younger people prefer to do other things than hunt. Hunting is dying out slowly in NYS in my opinion. Making rules more strict surely won't help matters, although that is what many trophy hunters want. They wouldn't mind getting rid of a good many hunters so they could have more to themselves. Unfortunately trophy hunting and greed sometimes go hand in hand.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

I'll chime in and get back later. Never will I be in favor of mandatory antler restrictions in NYS and I pass on smaller bucks. Don't even get me started on NYC. :D

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Just curious. Why is it that upstate resident hunters have problems with NYC hunters? Not all of them want antler restrictions like the guy who started this post makes it appear. Most of them hunt for all the reasons anyone else would. Are they considered slob hunters? Poachers? I don't know, it seems to me that I have seen plenty of upstate residents who fit this bill also. Plus they live up there and don't have to drive 150 miles to do the poaching like the locals could. The locals could do it 24/7 if they so chose.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Not anything to do with the hunters from there the city is a drain on the rest of the state sort of like a cancer.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

"Not anything to do with the hunters from there the city is a drain on the rest of the state sort of like a cancer."

Perhaps you would like to expound on that ridiculous statement!

[hr]

Steve863 perhaps you could take your foot out of your mouth long enough to explain when and how I made it appear that anyone but myself was in favor of antler restrictions? And how you speak for MOST of them? Do you ever think about the things you write before you post them?

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Two words - disease laden: Hillary Clinton.

Steve

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

SteveBNY -- Do you have any idea how childish you sound? I am not a fan of Mrs. Clinton, but millions of people in this state and country support her. Can you grasp that?

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Perhaps you would like to get around to answering my question which is how exactly you plan to get the NYC-area legislative reps. to go along with your agenda in Albany? The fact that you have been ignoring it just proves my statement that the Conservation Council has no creditability in Albany.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Her support does not come from the real upstate - she would not have been elected without the liberal anti agenda from the city.
You wanted an example - there it is.
Sound like a supporter - I must have touched a nerve.

Childish is how you ignored all my points back a few pages - perhaps you had no logical responce.

Steve - 57 year old Upstate child - who chaffs at the "city" wanting to tell us what is best for us.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

bsddaemon0- He won't answer either.
Easier to ignore the tough ones.

Steve

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Well it looks like there isn't much need to manage a herd of deer that has a dwindling hunting threat. I'm glad I'm not the only one that noticed that deer hunting is dying in NY. There is another bittersweet byproduct from lack of hunters in the woods. It use to be that after opening day, the deer would be spooked. Today with very few shots ringing thru the trees, the deer stay at ease throughout the season.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

bsddaemon0, SteveBNy, Steve863

Discussion amongst civilized intelligent people is a wonderful experience. Arguing with the ignorant is a waste of time. I started this thread in hopes of starting something positive. I really don't need to banter with close-minded people who only think of themselves. You claim to be concerned sportsmen and all you do is insult those that genuinely care about deer hunting and conservation. Do any of you know from experience what it means to volunteer on the NYS Conservation Council? Do any of you realize how narrow-minded your views come across as? Do any of you have anything positive to contribute to conservation at all? How many of you even buy a Habitat Stamp? Don't bother answering, I really have no interest in hearing from such narrow-minded selfish people!

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Here again, another lame attempt to divert attention away from the fact YOU STILL HAVE NOT ANSWERED MY QUESTION! Ideas mean nothing, regardless of their merit, without a way to implement them and you adamantly refuse to say how you plan to do that. I have not questioned your ideas, just your ability to put them into practice. So stop trying to BS everybody and tell me how you plan to get your NYC reps. to move your agenda through the legislature?

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

So you don't want discussion - simply agreement with your views and methods to push them.
You refuse to answer questions that you know will weaken your position.

Who is being childish and close minded.
Oh, and ignorant?

Steve

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

He calls us narrow-minded selfish people, yet he has failed to respond to mountains of data, valuable questions, and our civility except to kick and scream that we aren't being fair. Boy if you aren't the very definition of a manhatten drama queen.

I don't have anything against any hunter, but I do loathe NYC with a passion. It has brought nothing but trouble to my beloved mountains and with it the scourge of the universe as far as people are concerned. NYC continues sending embassadors upstate claiming they know best but they really only wish to control and keep us under their thumb. I speak of course of DEP.

They build multi-million dollar houses and drive our taxes sky-high, driving most of us out. Every restaurant in town is closed with the exception of one owned by a wealthy man from Brooklyn whose prices are so high we can't afford to eat out. During hunting season there are two nuicenses, the ones who actively seek to spook the deer so we can't shoot them (anti's) and those who consider themselves hunters but who actually just want to shoot anything that dares to move. It is true that NYC hunters aren't the only poachers, I've known many in my time, but up here poaching is usually for food, not trophy or bragging rights. Many a goat, horse, cow and dog has been dispatched by inexperienced city hunters who don't even know what a deer is let alone how to properly operate a firearm.

On the weekends my town is overrun with the likes of stuck-up, snobby, know-it-alls who toss around their money as if it impresses us. They cry wolf at every turn, calling the police, fire department, and ambulances if someone so much as sneezes in their direction. Well if they think we're the children of the friggan corn, maybe they should stay out!

Of course I don't speak for every city person. My boyfriend is from the Bronx, and some of my good friends grew up in Manhatten (though they had the smarts to move out). However, there is a mass majority that I'd prefer never left the confines of the city.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

That was the most ridiculous thread I have ever read. I actually feel terrible about the 15 minutes I lost that I can never have back, spent reading it. Wow.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Happy we could help:D;) Don't think of it as time wasted, think of it as time that you took out of your busy life to depreciate your IQ so that you too may understand some of the "logic" going on here.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Huntingirl -- you have some real resentment issues that should be worked out between you and a medical professional.
You speak of being a Manhattan drama queen and you can't even spell it. I and the restaurant owner have nothing to do with your issues. Something has gone wrong in your life and you are blaming everyone else for your misfortune. Do you realize that you are ranting hysterically? "Well if they think we're the children of the friggan corn, maybe they should stay out!" Your issues have nothing to do with hunting or conservation.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Can an outta stater ask a question? Why in the world would a supposed deer "management" organization identify themselves with New York City? Do hunters from the Big Apple know better than their country bumpkin counterparts what's best for the states herd? It does sound like a bunch of city slickers telling the rest of the State what they should/should not do. I can definitely see where the resentment comes from. BTW, I'll be bowhunting Westchester County the first of November. Wouldn't mind visiting NYC, but it's not high on my to do list.;)

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Huntingirl 89 you have the right to your opinion about hunters from the city, but I do think you are painting them with a broad brush. Others who come up from the city to buy property, restaurants, etc. are not necessarily hunters, in fact, most are probably not, so you probably shouldn't lump everyone from the city together. Besides, as I mentioned in an earlier post, hunting in NYS is slowly but surely dying which also means there are even fewer coming up from the city to hunt. Your prayers of not seeing city hunters anymore will surely be answered one day soon. I can assure you that many hunters from the city don't believe in or want any form of AR's. NYC Hunt AM is acting like some sort of voice of city hunters which he most defintely isn't. He says he wants to debate this issue and then calls everyone ignorant when they say anything that doesn't agree with what he believes. He says discussion amongst civilized people is wonderful and he is the one acting the least civilized.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

First of all silly man, some of us work for a living as well as attend college full time. My fatigue is to blame for my misspelling, not that I need to explain anything to you. Secondly, only the first line was intended for YOU, which you ignored completely and instead decided to insult me and question my sanity. My answer was intended to show a previous posterthat indeed my hatred of NYC and those in it has little to do with hunting, and since you seem to have comprehended at least that, perhaps there is hope for you in the future. I was not bantering hysterically, merely pointing out a few reasons why I have issues with the pit of hell totheSouth. I find no problem with true hunters, no matter where they call home, so long as they aren't out there for just a head on the wall, which you seem to be and have failed to prove that your program is for anything but.

Your efforts at making us appear unintelligent are in fact turning against you. This thread is getting more and more ridiculous and your last post to me actually made me laugh out loud. Please give up, you've lost all credibility and I just don't think my sides can take it anymore.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

I probably should have been more clear in my post. I like to see hunters, and make many new hunting partners every season by just meeting people at 4:30am in the gas station. I don't care where they come from, so long as they are knowledgeable, or at least willing to learn, and ethical. It is horrible that hunting is disappearing in the state, which is why I believe that through education we might be able to attract an interest in the younger generation. Children from all corners of the state need to be taken into the woods and taught properly by someone who knows what they are talking about. There used to be a camp in my town where inner city kids could come up and learn about hunting, fishing, camping, farming, etc. It was funded by NYPD through grants from the city. Around 1999 the grants were pulled and the camp shut down. The land was sold to build condos, which seems to be the new fad up there. With the disappearance of places like this as an outlet to city kids, so goes the passion for the environment. I've taken people into the woods who have never been outside of the Bronx and awakened in them something they thought they could never have. All it takes is the education of just one person and for them to teach others.

I do apologize for the misconception that I despise NYC hunters, I hate the business owners, the richies, NYC gov't, and all of the other rude miscreants that make their way up there, and there are a few who just happen to have a gun in their hand during the season whom I do not consider hunters.