You explained your position , but it didn't help, I assure you.

They didn't just "seem to think" they were seeing more and better quality buck and it wasn't so long ago. In 2000 Elk Co. had 22 DPSM and now it has 8-9 DPSM. the buck harvest in Elk dropped from 2,969 buck in 2000 to 1,920 in 2003 and 42% of the bucks harvested in Elk were 2.5+ buck. So, the hunters that hunt what was once the premier deer hunting area of the state , are now hunting the least productive area of the state,with fewer 2.5+ buck and have valid reasons to complain.

have hunted the northcentral counties of PA. since 1980 and it is a known fact that that part of the states deer herd has seen a drop in numbers since the mid to late 80's. not just since 2000. I see by looking over most of your post you seem to have some sort of a vendetta against the PGC. so I won't be wasting my time descussing sound deer management practises with you anymore.

Wise choice dude.

It's not that I have a vendetta against the PGC. It is simply that you want to discuss deer management based on your opinions rather than on the facts. I have the facts to support my positions ,but none of those that support the PGC can produce the facts to show that the plan has improved herd health , productivity or the rack sizes of 2.5+ buck.

BTW, over the past few years I have had very good experiences working with deputy WCO's. On two occasions I called the PGC regarding crippled non-AR legal buck and in both cases the response time was excellent and the WCO was friendly ,but very professional. I also reported illegal activities on an adjoining property and the WCO followed up my lead ad issued the appropriate citations. Another time I called about a crippled buck that was hit by a car and no WCO was available ,so a State Trooper responded and handled the situation in a friendly but professional manner.

drop in deer numbers in 80s was do to locals not being able to stop doe killing.

we used to only see a few hunters and most were local.
then in came the out of area hunters and,you right, numbers went down.

i can remember we left 19 or so deer go in area i hunted for 40 years or so.

we always did.

in came crew from out of area and shot a lot of those doe,then they left.

after that, in 80s,the doe never could get a real start back to the numbers they were.

now, you have all these areas or counties in WMU2G.

i get hunters from ,centre, potter, lycoming,clinton,cameron hunting in say,CLINTON COUNTY.

we used to be able to keep the doe tags for locals in clinton county.

locals WOULD NOT SHOOT OFF THE HERD.

thats why you have less deer or no deer,its not habitat even tho i agree its not best for large herd of deer,its OVERHARVEST OF DOE/FAWNS and all new hunters that DONT CARE IF 1 LIVING DEER IS LEFT.

Whether for or against antler restrictions, this cannot be disputed.. Every successful QDM program does use some form of antler restriction. However places in the midwest have better soil for growing higher protein forage for deer to consume. Many of those lands are privately owned and managed- minerals supplied, food plots planted, timbering for habitat "not just profit," deer provided space as a sanctuary and not pressured like on public lands.Instead of sitting in an office and"guesstimating" harvest reports, these Quality Deer Managers not onlyphysically observethe deer population but most have namedthe larger buck and can tell what deer is what before shooting. The PAGC has tried to do something good but they won't provide the deer with enough nutritious food sources to aid those "immature" 2 1/2 year old deer with what is needed to grow impressive racks. This is why Pa is ranked no. 1 in the nation for deer/vehicle collisions. The deer aren't provided with enough palatable nutrition in the woods so they eat along the road. Deer apparently prefer the habitat PennDOT provides over what the PAGC provides. Also by killing off more button bucks than older does during this brown it's down deer season we will not see a larger number of buck. There should be a penalty for killing button bucks. If not it defeats the purpose of the antler restriction. (Here's an idea) do what always worked -Archery, Rifle and then 3 days of doe but keep the antler restriction.. Not only will we have more buck but the woods will be safer and less deer will be crippled by those who shoot at running deer that can't be identified as buck or doe at 70yds. If you want Big Buck you need to do some work, don't expect the PAGC to do it for you. Get out in the woods supply deer with minerals like phosphate early in the spring and throughout the summer. If possible plant food plots with high protein foods like soybeans. And finally, let the young buck go so they can grow. Stop going into the area you plan to hunt a month before season and limit activity 3 months before season. Deer will pattern you faster than you will them.

4evrhtnAmazing what common sense brings 38 pages later. I can't beleive you guys arestill arguing this out.

The vast majority of our bucks are not harvested from lands controlled by the PGC and the vast majority of the roadkills do not occur in the heavily forested areas of the state. WMU 2G has the lowest buck harvest rate in the state even though it is one of the largest WMU's and is 90% forested. The deer in most of the state have nutrition that is more than adequate to produce large racks. The major factor that limits the development of trophy buck is 950,000 hunters that prevent the vast majority of bucks from reaching 4.5 years.

Been gone for almost a week and nothing has changed. It's kind of like walking by the TV when the wife has a soap opera on and then walking by a week later and the same scene is still playing out!!

Greg, I love your idea for a "buckswe passed thread"!!

BTW Bluebird, I had left my copy of Dr Kroll article at my camp and so I couldnt challenge your quotes from the article. Well, I've got it here now and am ready to expose your spins, twists and lies.EVERY quote you listed from the article was presented out of context or prefaced by a statement by you that madethe post a lie.