PA antler restriction
08-26-2008 | 03:55 PM
#271
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
Likes: 0
RE: PA antler restriction
If you want to see them in print, just print out my posts so you can read them over and over again until the truth finally sinks in.
The fact that you couldn't provide a coherent response to support any of Kroll's reasons for ARs ,shows you really don't understand the issues involved and all you care about is seeing more older bucks with big racks. Until you or anyone else can provide a study that shows conclusively that ARs benefit the herd, then it is reasonable to conclude that ARs are simply implemented to encourage hunters to reduce the herd while appeasing trophy hunters and misleading the average hunter.
The fact that you couldn't provide a coherent response to support any of Kroll's reasons for ARs ,shows you really don't understand the issues involved and all you care about is seeing more older bucks with big racks. Until you or anyone else can provide a study that shows conclusively that ARs benefit the herd, then it is reasonable to conclude that ARs are simply implemented to encourage hunters to reduce the herd while appeasing trophy hunters and misleading the average hunter.
08-26-2008 | 06:04 PM
#272
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,490
Likes: 0
From: Southeast PA
RE: PA antler restriction
Hey BB2, I haven't seen you respond to the fact that you can't tell what kind of genetics a deer has at 1.5. You keep saying that at 2.5 the antler size of the smaller 1.5 old saved by AR will be smaller than the 1.5 that was shot (meaningif both buck were allowed to live the smaller buck would still be smaller at 2.5). But there are numerous studies that show that at 4.5 the bucks that were smaller at 1.5 actually grow larger antlers. Doesn't this prove that high grading can't happen consitently because you can't tell anything about a bucks genetics at 1.5 but until both buck have matured and now show their true genetics? So because we kill most buck by the time they are 3.5 in PA how will we ever know the true genetics of our deer.
08-26-2008 | 06:32 PM
#273
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
Likes: 0
RE: PA antler restriction
Thank you asking that question in a non-confrontational manner. It is a very good question that deserves an honest answer and the answer is that high grading does not occur due to a change in the gene pool,although in the long term it may result in a change in the gene pool. High grading is simply harvesting the best buck in each age class,which leaves the smaler buck with less potential for THE RATE OF ANTLER DEVELOPMENT, to advance to the next age class.
Here is a quote from from Dr. Demarais that explains it in their terms.
Here is a quote from from Dr. Demarais that explains it in their terms.
There’s no doubt using an antler restriction can be a
very effective management strategy to alter the age struc-
ture of the buck harvest and population. In many cases
The effectiveness of an antler restriction designed to
protect smaller-antlered young bucks within an age class
can be a source of problems. Are the protected bucks
the ones you want growing older? The answer depends
on your harvest goals. Remember that just about any
sample of older bucks will have larger antlers, on aver-
age, than a similar sample of younger bucks. So if you
are interested only in harvesting deer with larger
antlers, a simple antler restriction protecting younger
bucks, even if they are of lower antler quality, can be
effective. But if your goal is to improve antler quality in
older age classes, such an antler restriction may not be
the best long-term approach.
Protecting smaller-antlered bucks and harvesting larg-
er-antlered bucks within an age class reduces average
antler size in older age classes – if antler development in
younger bucks predicts future antler development. This
is called “high grading” and is similar to removing better-
quality timber and leaving lower-quality timber for later
harvest (Photo 1).
very effective management strategy to alter the age struc-
ture of the buck harvest and population. In many cases
The effectiveness of an antler restriction designed to
protect smaller-antlered young bucks within an age class
can be a source of problems. Are the protected bucks
the ones you want growing older? The answer depends
on your harvest goals. Remember that just about any
sample of older bucks will have larger antlers, on aver-
age, than a similar sample of younger bucks. So if you
are interested only in harvesting deer with larger
antlers, a simple antler restriction protecting younger
bucks, even if they are of lower antler quality, can be
effective. But if your goal is to improve antler quality in
older age classes, such an antler restriction may not be
the best long-term approach.
Protecting smaller-antlered bucks and harvesting larg-
er-antlered bucks within an age class reduces average
antler size in older age classes – if antler development in
younger bucks predicts future antler development. This
is called “high grading” and is similar to removing better-
quality timber and leaving lower-quality timber for later
harvest (Photo 1).
08-26-2008 | 08:20 PM
#274
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,220
Likes: 0
From: SW PA USA
RE: PA antler restriction
Unlike Bluebirds quotes, these appear in their entirety. I could probaly clip a line here and a phrase there but that method could be misleading as we've all seen here...
From Dr Krolls Blog:
Fromhis 12 year spike buck study:
It's very clear that the size of a bucks antlers at 1.5 mean nothing when predicting his antlers at maturity. The only way we could high grade the gene pool is to not shoot bucks till they reach 4 1/2 and then take the best ones out. High grading before that age is a myth.
From Dr Krolls Blog:
Deer develop differently: A yearling spike buck stands just as good a chance of growing into a quality buck as a yearling counterpart with six, eight or 10 points. Kroll made that determination after an 11-year study of free-ranging whitetails.
“Deer are like people,” he said. “They develop at a different pace. The kid who is smaller than his classmates in the first grade may be the biggest kid in his graduating class. Besides, young bucks disperse from their home territories at an early age. In our spike buck study, we were only able to recapture 12 percent of the bucks that we collared. The others wound up on the neighbor’s ranch. The neighbor gets your bucks and you get his bucks.”
“Deer are like people,” he said. “They develop at a different pace. The kid who is smaller than his classmates in the first grade may be the biggest kid in his graduating class. Besides, young bucks disperse from their home territories at an early age. In our spike buck study, we were only able to recapture 12 percent of the bucks that we collared. The others wound up on the neighbor’s ranch. The neighbor gets your bucks and you get his bucks.”
Fromhis 12 year spike buck study:
"We divided all of the yearling bucks we captured into two categories," Dr. Kroll continues. "Yearlings that had only spikes or 3-point antlers were in one category, and yearlings with four or more antler points on their first set were in the other. We did this because we reasoned that these two classes of yearling bucks are easy for hunters to identify. We got some very interesting results on the 2 1/2- and 3 1/2-year-old bucks that were recaptured, but the age of 4 1/2 is where the results were the most dramatic.
"Studies repeatedly have shown that whitetail bucks do not reach maturity until four years of age, and by the time the bucks in our study had reached 4 1/2, there was no significant difference in any of the antler measurements, no matter what the buck started out with his first year. The antlers were just as wide, just as heavy and had just as many points. Furthermore, there was no significant difference in gross B&C score," he says.
Many of the bucks that had been yearling spikes had grown 130-inch racks by age 4 1/2. Ironically, the average B&C score of all bucks killed across Texas each year is about 131 inches.
"It appears from our data that the spikes and 3-pointers are genetically equal at birth to multi-point yearlings for antler growth potential," Dr. Kroll concludes. "It just seems to take some deer a little longer to show their capability. The trick is, you have to let them grow up before it becomes obvious. Genetics certainly is an interesting aspect of whitetail management, and fun to debate around the campfire, but genetics is the least important of all the factors leading to the production of quality bucks."
So should spikes, or, for that matter, any bucks, ever be culled from the herd? According to Dr. Kroll, perhaps in some cases.
"...culling bucks is a very complicated issue," Dr. Kroll says. "In our opinion, instead of trying to cull bucks, landowners and hunters are far better off focusing their attention on things they can do something about, such as nutrition. Today the question of shooting more does is the only issue that generates as much controversy as that of what to do about spike bucks, and that's a no-brainer. We should all do our part in trying to shoot more does. It's essential for the welfare of the herd."
"Studies repeatedly have shown that whitetail bucks do not reach maturity until four years of age, and by the time the bucks in our study had reached 4 1/2, there was no significant difference in any of the antler measurements, no matter what the buck started out with his first year. The antlers were just as wide, just as heavy and had just as many points. Furthermore, there was no significant difference in gross B&C score," he says.
Many of the bucks that had been yearling spikes had grown 130-inch racks by age 4 1/2. Ironically, the average B&C score of all bucks killed across Texas each year is about 131 inches.
"It appears from our data that the spikes and 3-pointers are genetically equal at birth to multi-point yearlings for antler growth potential," Dr. Kroll concludes. "It just seems to take some deer a little longer to show their capability. The trick is, you have to let them grow up before it becomes obvious. Genetics certainly is an interesting aspect of whitetail management, and fun to debate around the campfire, but genetics is the least important of all the factors leading to the production of quality bucks."
So should spikes, or, for that matter, any bucks, ever be culled from the herd? According to Dr. Kroll, perhaps in some cases.
"...culling bucks is a very complicated issue," Dr. Kroll says. "In our opinion, instead of trying to cull bucks, landowners and hunters are far better off focusing their attention on things they can do something about, such as nutrition. Today the question of shooting more does is the only issue that generates as much controversy as that of what to do about spike bucks, and that's a no-brainer. We should all do our part in trying to shoot more does. It's essential for the welfare of the herd."
It's very clear that the size of a bucks antlers at 1.5 mean nothing when predicting his antlers at maturity. The only way we could high grade the gene pool is to not shoot bucks till they reach 4 1/2 and then take the best ones out. High grading before that age is a myth.
08-26-2008 | 08:57 PM
#275
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,236
Likes: 0
RE: PA antler restriction
We went over this prior and my contention was that high grading can't happen on 1.5 year old bucks. The rack development is dictated by external factors too much at that age. Somehow the idea didn't get across when I wassaying it. Too much dilution of nutrition and birth date at 1.5 to have the harvesting of a certain characteristic make any difference. Did we not agree that a 1.5 year old spike can have the potential to grow a 12 point (example) rack, if left to it's devices?
08-26-2008 | 09:31 PM
#276
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,195
Likes: 0
From: PA.
RE: PA antler restriction
ORIGINAL: BTBowhunter
Unlike Bluebirds quotes, these appear in their entirety. I could probaly clip a line here and a phrase there but that method could be misleading as we've all seen here...
From Dr Krolls Blog:
Fromhis 12 year spike buck study:
It's very clear that the size of a bucks antlers at 1.5 mean nothing when predicting his antlers at maturity. The only way we could high grade the gene pool is to not shoot bucks till they reach 4 1/2 and then take the best ones out. High grading before that age is a myth.
Unlike Bluebirds quotes, these appear in their entirety. I could probaly clip a line here and a phrase there but that method could be misleading as we've all seen here...
From Dr Krolls Blog:
Deer develop differently: A yearling spike buck stands just as good a chance of growing into a quality buck as a yearling counterpart with six, eight or 10 points. Kroll made that determination after an 11-year study of free-ranging whitetails.
“Deer are like people,” he said. “They develop at a different pace. The kid who is smaller than his classmates in the first grade may be the biggest kid in his graduating class. Besides, young bucks disperse from their home territories at an early age. In our spike buck study, we were only able to recapture 12 percent of the bucks that we collared. The others wound up on the neighbor’s ranch. The neighbor gets your bucks and you get his bucks.”
“Deer are like people,” he said. “They develop at a different pace. The kid who is smaller than his classmates in the first grade may be the biggest kid in his graduating class. Besides, young bucks disperse from their home territories at an early age. In our spike buck study, we were only able to recapture 12 percent of the bucks that we collared. The others wound up on the neighbor’s ranch. The neighbor gets your bucks and you get his bucks.”
Fromhis 12 year spike buck study:
"We divided all of the yearling bucks we captured into two categories," Dr. Kroll continues. "Yearlings that had only spikes or 3-point antlers were in one category, and yearlings with four or more antler points on their first set were in the other. We did this because we reasoned that these two classes of yearling bucks are easy for hunters to identify. We got some very interesting results on the 2 1/2- and 3 1/2-year-old bucks that were recaptured, but the age of 4 1/2 is where the results were the most dramatic.
"Studies repeatedly have shown that whitetail bucks do not reach maturity until four years of age, and by the time the bucks in our study had reached 4 1/2, there was no significant difference in any of the antler measurements, no matter what the buck started out with his first year. The antlers were just as wide, just as heavy and had just as many points. Furthermore, there was no significant difference in gross B&C score," he says.
Many of the bucks that had been yearling spikes had grown 130-inch racks by age 4 1/2. Ironically, the average B&C score of all bucks killed across Texas each year is about 131 inches.
"It appears from our data that the spikes and 3-pointers are genetically equal at birth to multi-point yearlings for antler growth potential," Dr. Kroll concludes. "It just seems to take some deer a little longer to show their capability. The trick is, you have to let them grow up before it becomes obvious. Genetics certainly is an interesting aspect of whitetail management, and fun to debate around the campfire, but genetics is the least important of all the factors leading to the production of quality bucks."
So should spikes, or, for that matter, any bucks, ever be culled from the herd? According to Dr. Kroll, perhaps in some cases.
"...culling bucks is a very complicated issue," Dr. Kroll says. "In our opinion, instead of trying to cull bucks, landowners and hunters are far better off focusing their attention on things they can do something about, such as nutrition. Today the question of shooting more does is the only issue that generates as much controversy as that of what to do about spike bucks, and that's a no-brainer. We should all do our part in trying to shoot more does. It's essential for the welfare of the herd."
"Studies repeatedly have shown that whitetail bucks do not reach maturity until four years of age, and by the time the bucks in our study had reached 4 1/2, there was no significant difference in any of the antler measurements, no matter what the buck started out with his first year. The antlers were just as wide, just as heavy and had just as many points. Furthermore, there was no significant difference in gross B&C score," he says.
Many of the bucks that had been yearling spikes had grown 130-inch racks by age 4 1/2. Ironically, the average B&C score of all bucks killed across Texas each year is about 131 inches.
"It appears from our data that the spikes and 3-pointers are genetically equal at birth to multi-point yearlings for antler growth potential," Dr. Kroll concludes. "It just seems to take some deer a little longer to show their capability. The trick is, you have to let them grow up before it becomes obvious. Genetics certainly is an interesting aspect of whitetail management, and fun to debate around the campfire, but genetics is the least important of all the factors leading to the production of quality bucks."
So should spikes, or, for that matter, any bucks, ever be culled from the herd? According to Dr. Kroll, perhaps in some cases.
"...culling bucks is a very complicated issue," Dr. Kroll says. "In our opinion, instead of trying to cull bucks, landowners and hunters are far better off focusing their attention on things they can do something about, such as nutrition. Today the question of shooting more does is the only issue that generates as much controversy as that of what to do about spike bucks, and that's a no-brainer. We should all do our part in trying to shoot more does. It's essential for the welfare of the herd."
It's very clear that the size of a bucks antlers at 1.5 mean nothing when predicting his antlers at maturity. The only way we could high grade the gene pool is to not shoot bucks till they reach 4 1/2 and then take the best ones out. High grading before that age is a myth.
oh my, ole sproul would have the big one ,HERE I COME EDITH.
08-26-2008 | 10:13 PM
#278
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,220
Likes: 0
From: SW PA USA
RE: PA antler restriction
ORIGINAL: livbucks
We went over this prior and my contention was that high grading can't happen on 1.5 year old bucks. The rack development is dictated by external factors too much at that age. Somehow the idea didn't get across when I wassaying it. Too much dilution of nutrition and birth date at 1.5 to have the harvesting of a certain characteristic make any difference. Did we not agree that a 1.5 year old spike can have the potential to grow a 12 point (example) rack, if left to it's devices?
We went over this prior and my contention was that high grading can't happen on 1.5 year old bucks. The rack development is dictated by external factors too much at that age. Somehow the idea didn't get across when I wassaying it. Too much dilution of nutrition and birth date at 1.5 to have the harvesting of a certain characteristic make any difference. Did we not agree that a 1.5 year old spike can have the potential to grow a 12 point (example) rack, if left to it's devices?
08-27-2008 | 12:02 AM
#279
Typical Buck
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 696
Likes: 2
From: Indiana county, Pa
RE: PA antler restriction
bt, im not far from conemaugh dam. havent fished the river in years though ive heard of people catching some decent fish out of there. my brother fishes right below the dam for carp. some big ones in there. i see people fishing right below the saltsburg bridge quite often. the guy that owns the bait shop across from kiski prep told me that a few trout have been caught down where black leggs creek runs into the river. might be worth a try sometime. have fun with the AR subject. seems like its got everyone wound up.
08-27-2008 | 04:25 AM
#280
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
Likes: 0
RE: PA antler restriction
It's very clear that the size of a bucks antlers at 1.5 mean nothing when predicting his antlers at maturity. The only way we could high grade the gene pool is to not shoot bucks till they reach 4 1/2 and then take the best ones out. High grading before that age is a myth.
While it is true that no one can tell the potential of a 1.5 buck, Dr. Kroll's research shows that a 1.5 spike takes 3 years to catch up with a 1.5 6 pt. So while we don't know the potential of the spike we do know that the 6 pt. has more potential to develop a large rack quicker than the spike. But, because the 6 pt. is harvested as a 1.5 it never comes close to reaching its potential and the spike may be legal as a 2.5 and not live long enough to demonstrate that it had the potential to become an 8 pt. This results in smaller average rack sizes for 2.5 buck due to ARs.