RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I know exactly what the PGC said and also exactly what you said. Just another example of a quick word swapped here or a fact left out there to create yet another distortion.

I'm sure it's easy for you to get confused. It must be a huge job to try and remember what you said last when the story keeps changing. Of course, if you'd simply post the untwisted truth, you'd never have to double check on what you've said before

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

You are correct . I misspoke and I should have said 24% of the antlerless harvest was BB. But it still doesn't change the fact that in a stable herd,saving BB by not shooting fawns is a major mistake.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I personally wouldn't mind being able to use a crossbow from a time stand point. I have 2 young children and work a different shift than my wife. Last year is the first year I felt I had a legitimate chance to hit a deer with my bow because of a lack of time to practice. With a crossbow I would be less likely to wound a deer due to a mis-placed shot. I don't believe a new generation of hunters would run out and buy a $600 x-bow. I think a minority of current archers in my situation would consider making the switch, but I honestly probably wouldn't at this point as I feel I am proficent enough with my current bow. It's kinda like to each his own for me. Some traditionalist like recurve's only the same as some with compound etc...

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Exactly Big Earl,these guys are blowing this thing out of proportion.Bickering among themselves,nit picking what everyone says even if they basically agrre with each other.I'm kind of glad they are going at each other like this.They are leaving other people alone.But they do seem happy in their own little minds.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Jeeze, you guys still debating and workingeach other to conspiracies of subverting the PAPGC (can't do what is already done) and if you think about it livbucks , Ohio is allowed ot hunt w/ Xbows so I'd imagine us being neighbors and all we would have more experience, comfort levels and yes input as we actually KNOW what a Xbow is and what a Xbow can do.In addition I pown cabnms and property in pA so I HAVE a say in the debate. BTB covers up for you and you still are not making coherent arguments. Yep. us Ohio Xbow hunters are taking over PA and all you guys in the Compound world are out baby! Maybe look at it as a positive and look at what Ohio has done to promote the stringed sports rather than your Oliver Stone fantasies. Probably some of iushave hunted in more than one spot and more than one state, have used multi[le hunting weapons and just might have had positive experiences from them. While you seem to be in this cloud of myths and "2 guys went ina bar w/ a Xbow...." stories. Big Earl makes an excellent point in the general stringed hunting population. Win 88 doeas as well in the overall thought processes of this 21 page protectionist document you have written. Your mindset towards Xbow is what will cost you in the long run. But, I gaurantee you will be salting your beer because this will be a reality/ Hell, If you were a true protester, you'd skip getting your bow license and sit in front of the PAPGC district offices w/ a sign arguing your point. I'm sure you could get all the other Bowyers to join and then when the PAPGC saw that you had made such a dent in their pockets w/ your protest they would ban all Xbows for life!

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Big Earl,when Paallowed inlines to be used in the early muzzleloader season,howmuch did participation increase?How many guys went out and bought an inline that otherwise wouldn't have and that was just to kill a doe?

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I'm all for what the majority wants, and what the resource needs,so let the GC do a poll of resident hunters and see what the HUNTERS want, and what the biologists see the need for, not a few manufacturers and vocal, out of state, proponents, looking to "Take over PA" as you say.
Your group's arrogance is really telling, and you show it so well.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Here are the archery and ML harvest numbers for 2F and 2G for 2007.
Now how many of those antlerless ML deer were harvested in the early season? probably not very many when you consider the visibility during the early season.

Furthermore, I doubt the archery buck kill would increase enough to make a difference if x-bows were legalized.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I'm almost positive that the early season was all inclusive for BP from the beginning, so no increase can be measured in that case, because it was a complete increase from zero, as inlines had no season prior in PA, besides the general gun season that crossguns are currently permitted to participate in also.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Livbucks,l sarcasm? You don't understand sarcasm. The PAPGC is not owned by you, or the people of PA. It is built to respond to the concerns of HUNTERS, doesn't say PA residents only. The PAPGC sees nothing but $$ and doesn't care what the PA hunters wnat or listen to biologisst. Gawd, when did that start, listening to deer experts. Alt comes to mind. It is obvious PA should be looking at successful deer programs outside the state and purview of the pAPGC to try and salvage any hunting opportiunities left.I still see no reason to change my stance on Xbows inPA. You all have not been abloe ton articulate a single reason not to include Xbows full time. Of course you realize the Xbow was included in gun season to calm the fearsof the public in close proximity to hunting lands.......Ha, next you'll be complaining abut them wanting to outlaw CF's below I80 !

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

livbucks,the first early muzzleloader season was flintlock only.

bb,I don't imagine crossbows will have a huge effect in 2G.I almost could care less.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I never said crossguns didn't have a place in PA hunting.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Thanks, I thought it was all inclusive.
I stand corrected.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Xbows.....Oh yea, warm season hunting for bucks is the ticket I been looking for... No more of that cold weather hunting....


http://www.nabowhuntingcoalition.com/Bowhunting_Issues/Final_crossbow_test.htm

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I could support crossbows statewide only if solid evidence can be produced from area 2B (where crossbows are now legal in the general archery season) showing that hunter numbers theharvest did not change in such a proportion that could become a threat to season length in the remainder of the state. And only if we institute mandatory bowhunter-ed for ALL bowhunters, vertical and horizontal.

Betcha the xbow manufacturers wouldn't want to accept that condition!

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Ahemmm...

Of course I do. That was a sound decision, to include them in GUN season. I have no reservations there.

So you are admitting that the full inclusion would be contrary to what would be in the resource's best interest?

Don't even go there. Bob and I discuss things in a mutually respectful way. We agree on a good deal of things, and take each other's view into consideration on others. We are individuals though and do have separate minds, however. It was his influence that got me to soften my stance enough to sayI would be in agreement with the inclusion pending certification, but you now want to beat that down also. So what is it? Do you want to earn your place, and be welcomed? Or do you feel entitlementover all that has come before you? Kind of sounds like the kid that gets a job and expects to start at the top of the ladder instead of climbingthe rungs like those before him did.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

BH1

You know guy, you have blown it! Here is a thread where at least some of us have shown a willingness to hear you on a subject that happens to be very unpopular with a majority and you get spittin mad when we don't accept everything as you'd like and we point out some concerns. gettin all jumpin ugly aint gonna help your case!

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

douge,if you are saying that inlines were not increased, you are dead wrong.
i saw more hunters with inlines than i ever did.

in fact, i saw a ton on flintlocks sold because of in-lines.

most are getting there doe with in-line in oct season.

i was out flintlock this year and only saw 4 hunters, yes, only 4.

they had their deer already with rifle/inlineand were filling more leftover tags not used.

flintlock is dieing away and so will COMPOUND BOWS ,replaced with CROSSBOW.

sproul has spoken.;)

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

only from what i see and pictures i see and info from camps.

MANY nice bucks are harvested with CROSSBOWS in wmu2g IN ARCHERY.

these bucks, i believe would not have
been shot if not for crossbow hunter.
most hunters that shoot a doe in archery, dont tag it,so its hard to see what is reallly happening.

archery is very secret time and hunters after meat, VERY secretive.

so, does sproul BELIEVE a increase in deer kill in wmu2g because of crossbow,you bet..............;)

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Correct me if I am wrong , but I believe X-bows were legalized in 2B in 2004. Here is the archery buck harvest from 2003 to 2006.

2003-1,740
2004-2,140
2005-2,720
2006-2,910

In an increasing herd I don't think those numbers represent a significant increase due to x-bows.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

WHAT??
A 70% increase in kills, since their inception, IS quite high. Even more so when you assume there are less legal bucks because of AR as youclaim.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Forgve me for demanding a link for proof,given your past history deaddeer but for now, if we assume they're accurate.... A larger number each and every year and a 40% overall increase over 4 years sounds like a pretty large increase to me

If crossbows became legal in 2004, it would seem that the fears are confirmed. That's the year when the kill jumped substantially

Since this is only a total archery kill, it doesn't mean it's from crossbows but the report cards do differentiate crossbows from vertical bows and the PGC has the tools in place to evaluate the issue. Maybe it's time that they use the info they ask for to help put this very divisive issue to rest one way or another

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I'm coming up with approx. a 70% increase from 2003 numbers to 2006.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

1740 x .70 = 1218 more
1740+ 1218 = 2958 total

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

You are correct Greg. I calculated it backwards...

2910 is 167.24% of 1740 Your way... the correct way to measure the increase

1740 is 59.79% of 2910 The way I did it. This would be correct if trying to measure a decline and not an oncrease...

MYBAD!!

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

BTW,

Our little discrepancy above is exactly why we have to question everything we get from our ole friend deaddeer;)

Aint it amazing how much you can change a picture just by swapping a few "facts"

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Well, sorry but, it's worse than you thought.
Do you feel better or worse, Bob?? Haha

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

If you need a link to the harvest data you are basically hopeless. I'll provide the link when you provide the link that confirms Goliath was a wild PA orphaned buck.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Your numbers have been proven wrong all to often. It's not my job to help you prove yourself right when you occasionally post something without distortion. You've earned the right to be called upon for proof on anything you post.

Once again, you dodged the real response and got off topic. an increase of almost 70% in the kill after the xbow was legalized for the regular archery season in 2B pretty much closes the deal for me till documentation from a CREDIBLE SOURCE proves otherwise

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

We are all capable of being corrected on our info. The difference separating us is who will admit they were incorrect and that one guy who hath changed thy name 20 times.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Are you saying the PGC annual harvest reports aren't good enough for you or are you saying you don't know how to find them? if you got the number of deer harvested by x-bow hunters, would it tell you how many compound bow users switched to x-bows? I am sure you wouldn't have a problem if the harvest increased because highly skilled compound bow users switched to x-bows.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I think it would be quite legitimate to have a problem with that. If the number that switched was significant, it would indeed show that the use of crossguns was resulting in a much higher harvest, and might lead to shortening the season. You would be changing the entire scenario by implementing a more effective tool. The season length would need to be scrutinized as a result.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

FACT: The crossbow was made legal in 2004 in 2B in regular archery season

FACT: The archery kill increased almost 70% since in 2B

Since you couldn't grasp my message, I'll put it another way. The facts above make a very compelling case for the idea that general use of crossbows in the archery will skew the archery harvest and possibly jeopadize the length of the seasons that seasons we now enjoy.

That being said, I was attempting to be fair and say lets look at the actual crossbow component in that dramatic increase in the harvest. The report cards include both types of weapon so the mechanism is in place to verify or refute the above conclusion.

I realize that it may be a hard concept for you to grasp, but good decisions come from having as much information as possible before drawing a conclusion

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

i cant speak for 2b but i can for 2g.

crossbows are killing a LOT of deer in archery, not in rifle or late season.
best week is last week of season, i see more bucks killed with crossbow that week.

just about every hunter i see with crossbow are hunters that never hunted archery or were not very good at it or would not take time to learn, now they are getting deer.

hope my comments dont offend crossbow users ,only what i see and i am seeing a LOT of deer killed with crossbow and 3 times the hunters in archery here in 2g than i saw in 2004.

heck, they are driving deer with crossbows,thats something you never saw before in archery.

drivers are not carrying crossbow but all watchers are.:eek:

a lot of hunters dont send in report card if they are not TAGGING the deer and archery is when a lot of that is done.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

With todays cross bows sproul, They are more accurate than smooth bore shotguns with slugs at 50 yrds.... Just like shooting a gun with a scope and not much practice needed to go from gun to crossbow to become deadly with one. Just have to know your yardage......

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

So what was the PGCs response to the increased archery harvest you worry so much about. Did they shorten the season in 2B because too many bucks were being harvested before the rut? Did they care that the archery buck harvest exceed the concurrent season buck harvest in 2007?

Do you have any idea why removing so many bucks before the rut wasn't a problem?

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

OMG, Bluebird your getting it. It's about the $$, and PAPGC is meeting the herd reduction requirements in those areas. LOL, some people think hunting is about sportsmanship...............

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Off topic again but then we know you regard any topic as a chance to spew your venom for the PGC with your distortions

The PGC has been attempting to increase the harvest any way possible in 2B. Earlier starts of the bow season, longer antlerless gun seasons so adding the crossbow was a natural part of the process.

The numbers above are at least a cause for serious caution when considering the legalization of crossbows anywhere in the state where deer populations are being adequately controlled by utilizing the present mix of seasons and weapons

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

That view is a bit over simplistic. Hunting is about sportsmanship to those who hunt. To the rest of the world, hunting is about game management. Don't think for a minute that the non hunting public would give a rats butt about our sport if we weren't an important game management tool. Never forget that.

The PGC is still struggling for ways to reduce the herd in 2B. Liberal doe permits, lengthy seasons and even crossbows have helped butthey're still not quite there. Property acces is the problem so the PGC makes it possible for those with access to kill as many as they want in as many ways as possible.

If the crossbow comes to pass, it will be motivated primarily by money.
First and foremost that influence is from the manufacturers and the distributors. Unfortunately, we cant ignore that the PGC is in dire finacial straights due, in part at least, to political pressure from deaddeer and his USP buddies. We can only hope that the BOC won't sell out to the crossbow industry looking for a cash cow from increased archery permit sales.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I am not off topic since the reason you and Livbucks gave why the PGC might shorten the harvest was that too many bucks would be killed before the rut. But, you apparently don't understand why that is not a concern since you didn't address that issue.



As more hunters quit you once again see a push by the PGC to introduce more weapons into the archery season. Would you prefer rifles or x-bows?