RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Well NJ bow hunting organization did exactly that, (much to their dismay) I'll let everyone read it for themselves .......

Our initial reaction was to stand firmly behind the UBNJ’s crossbow policy (which by the way parallels the current P&Y club standards)opposing the introduction of the crossbow into any bowseason, with the exceptionof those who are disabled, as is the current policy. However, in order to see how our membership felt the UBNJ performed its own survey. The results surprised some of our Council members, indicating that our membership was virtually split down the middle regarding this issue

http://www.ubnj.org/camp/fire.html

You Will Notice however as you "read on" they will still FIGHT this, depsite that obvious outcome, which IMO "says a great deal" about the whole issue, IF "you" belong to any bow organization who IS fighing anything without asking the Memberhip (who pays All the bills) inquire about "why" they would fight anything or sign onto the NABC/PBS "stuff" before surveying Every member.......

Warning:

YOU may not like hearing " you don't really matter" WE do what we're going to do, for our own selfish reasons (may not be in those "exact words" but a horse is not a cow, it's still a horse)

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

My understanding is that the UBNJ only represents a small percentage of the total number of bow hunters in NJ. It would be interesting to see the results if an effort was made to poll a sample of ALL bow hunters in the state as well as a sample of ALL hunters and get their reaction. I think that those in favor of the crossbow would be much, much greater than 50-50.

The President of the UBNJ is doing a great job of making an a$$ out of himself over this issue.But the more outrageous the claims of the anti-bow hunters get, the more they shoot themselves in the foot.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

They did. Sent out random surveys. Got back 5X the expected amount. View it here:
http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/pdf/2008 ... rvey07.pdf

Brief summary:

When broken down by user groups, total support was still in favor of crossbows:
bow & gun hunters, 72%; gun-only hunters, 79%; bow-only hunters, 67%. The
majority of non-deer hunters were also in favor of crossbows (56%).

Xbow fun
 

BTB I hope you have been following this thread sometimes. Seems sportsmen and women aren't as impacted by the crossbow and it's usage as your original thread alludes. By the way, I just bought my wife a crossbow and my daughter 10 and i are looking for a suitable one for her. Seems they don't have the armstrngth you have so Xbow is a great opportunity to get us all in the woods together, of course that goes against your grain as Xbows offer to many opportunities for people to go in the woods and crowd "the real hunters". Again, I will huint on Sunday's and w/a Xbow in PA in a very short while. I have just created a $$ income producing opportunity for PAPGC that they will NOT turn down. I am sorry to be so sarcastic, but the bow community has just turned me off w/ these entitlment statements about prowess and practice and special seasons, and whining about people in the woods who don't belong, etc.......... I went through it when I small gamed w/ my bird dog and now because I lean more towards shooting my Xbow than my compound, you guys are banging me again. As I aged in this sport I learned in PA (at least) that it is all about the $$, not the sport. Old saying used in the law enforcement "Follow the money". Good Hunting!

RE: Xbow fun
 

Keep in mind that it is not the entire "bow hunting community" saying the silly stuff. It is a relatively small number of people within the bow hunting ranks doing it. But i agree that those doing most of the talking have really shot themselves in the foot with the logic that they have tried to use.

RE: Xbow fun
 

LONG BOW,...RECURVE BOW...COMPOUND BOW,..RECURVE CROSSBOW,.. COMPOUND CROSSBOW,....TWO STICKS AND A STRING...
WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?

RE: Xbow fun
 

Something I found on another site I think was worth reading

http://crossbownation.com/community/showthread.php?t=541

RE: Xbow fun
 

Just thought i would chime in for a bow hunter that lives in PA....i am for people who physically cannot shoot a compound getting a permit to shoot a crossbow....but thats the only reason i would want to see a xbow in PA's archery season. I agree with Matt/PA

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

i feel same.
i say let them for disabled as it gives them chance to hunt and still see a deer.that will end if large increase of hunters start using crossbow.

many friends of mine say they are having hard time hunting because more hunters are in woods with crossbow in ARCHERY .

i dont have problem with CROSSBOW, i just dont want more hunters in woods when its so hard to get buck now with bow.

i think you will find that my opinion is same with everyone that hunts hard in archery.

NO DOUBT more doe are being killed in archery with crossbows and some real nice bucks by hunters that could not hit side of barn with recurve bow.

i know people that cant hunt worth a dang getting deer with crossbow.

they never would take time to learn how to shoot a recurve or compound.

again, i have no complaint with crossbow or hunters that love to hunt with them,my concern is the increase number of hunters after very few deer left in clinton/potter/cameron countys.

isight in crossbows for our club ,its fun and most like their bows,it opened up new hunting in archery.
thats great for those that i stated above but not good for hunters like myself that like tro be alone after a big buck in areas with FEW deer,wmu2g.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

GO TO HEAD OF CLASS.

you are right on.

if we had lots of deer like in 60/70s, there would be no objection to crossbow.

BUT the crossbow will double hunters hunting very few deer that are left in WMU2G.

EVERYONE LISTEN,forget you surveys and if crossbow is gun etc.

its not any that,real truth is, ARCHERY SEASON takes time and good hunting skills.

adding MORE hunters with more of chance to get a deer is NOT WELCOME by most of hunters i know.

look how early doe oct thing is ruining that week of archery,now add more hunters ,which crossbows will do that.

ITS NOT CROSSBOW,ITS ALL NEW HUNTERS THAT DID NOT HUNT ARCHERY BEFORE NOW HUNTING VERY FEW DEER THAT ARE LEFT WITH A GREAT CHANCE OF HARVESTING THAT BUCK THAT A RECURVE/COMPOUND HUNTER HAD TO THEMSELVES.

call it selfish by us hunters,YES,no doubt about that too.:eek:

RE: Xbow fun
 

I've been following this thread all along but I think you need to re read some of my posts here. I WAS once opposed to the crossbow but am not as convinced as I once was that it would bethe problem that some of us fear. I am not a crossbow supporter either. What IDID say is thatmandatory bowhunter ed would deter those who simply see the crossbow asthe easy way in. That being said, Imight be more apt to support themIF AND ONLY IFthey were accompanied by a mandatory bowhunter ed rule for ALL new bowhunters

RE: Xbow fun
 

Now there is a rational response that I agree with totally.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Sproulman & BTB what about the beggining recurve/compound hunting persons?? Should they not take your mandatory class? They do teach some in the Hunters Ed but does that make them proficient w/ a bow? BTB, you make an excellent point.........ut good for the goose, good for the gander.

Sproulman, your responses are always geared to incite harsh responses in most instances:
That is exactly why I will vote for Xbow w/ unfetterd regulation. Entitlement my friend. I always thought those deer were ours , sportsman, PA license holders. Your response verges on the PAPGC thinking that they owned the deer herd. You also resonate superiority in your response that you are the hunters, no one else. Sometimes i read your responses, but most of time your opinion is narrowed and of little value to us (I guess according to your response above) non-hunters. If you aren't seeing deer maybe it is your technique?? I can tell you I see alot of deer, I hunt private, Gamelands and multiple states. I know in my PA property we are trying to kill more deer to keep a healthy herd. But guess what, I changed the way I hunt and the area to see more deer to get that experience. I actually get in the woods early and go deep, I rarely see another hunter in bow, gun when I hunt the Gamelands and if I do see them they are not in as deep as I am. I had to adjust, I do not promote keeping hunters from the field as you seem to be promoting. PA has had nothing but decreases in license sales annually, even with the additional type weapons hunting seasons. But you go a head and keep people new, young, female and others you feel prejudiced towards out of the woods. It will only furhter divide the hunting community, put a bad taste in the mouths of newbies and cause OUR sport to take additional hits from Rendell and his anti's.
Good luck to you BOW HUNTING clubs and hunters that own the wqods.......I will definitely be out there small game hunting, Xbow hunting and in fact here is what i'll do Sproulman, I will ban all recurve and compounds from my camp and property and go only Xbows. I can do that, I own my/the woods!!

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I beleive I did say mandatory ed for ALL new bowhunters no matter what weapon. A guy who buys a crossbow, a recurve or a compound a week before the season doesnt belong in the woods with that weapon till he has put in some time learning his sport.

Mandatory bowhunter-ed for ALL is long overdue

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

BTBowhunter, sorry. Overeacted there. You did say ALL! In North Park in Pittsburgh you have ot shoot proficiency in order to join the special hunt. Huge deer in that park.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I think crossguns should be welcomed into any gun season.:eek:

I shudder to think that ARCHERY season will get shortened back to October only.
I really don't begin to hunt until the last week of October. For me, archery "bow and arrow" season is all about that magical window of time from around October 20th-November 15ish.
Shortening the season will wreck mine and my families' world.
All I can say.

I did have two crossgun trespassers (2B) come under my stand last season looking for a doe they wounded. I found it weeks later. They didn't.[:@]

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I think our concerns are exactly the same here Greg. We are both concerned that allowing an "easy way" to get into the early season could result in a shorter season. So far, the challenges of hunting with archery equipment and committment required keeps out those looking for the "short cut" .Considering the unrelenting onslaught from crossbow manufacturers and with an apparently growing acceptancefor the things, maybe our energies would be better served in pushing now for mandatory bowhunter education. I sincerely believe it will deter the throngs of one day wonders from plunking down the $$ for a crossbow just to find an easy way into the bow season.

JMHO:)

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Had to do the same for the suburban deer program I hunt as well. Also had to submit to a background check and agree to a lot of rules designed to keep the hunt as close to politically correct as possible.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I have no predjudice toward crossguns. I wouldn't mind owning one. I think they would work great for hunting close to residential areas during firearms season. That would be an effective strategy for reducing the herd in those areas. BUT....The ARCHERY season is set, in terms of length, by the number of hunters participating and the success rate of those hunters. I believe it was lobbied for many years to extend the season into the rut and it wasn't until the GC was convinced that doing so wouldn't result in overharvest, that it was granted. The whole idea of archery season was to use a primitive tool to take a deer. A self imposed challenge.
True, the crossgun does not have a more effective range than a bow, but the learning curve to crossguns is so much shorter, and the perception of effectiveness so greater, that a huge number of otherwise one-day gun hunters will jump in to the archery season. The GC will no doubt react by shortening the season.
I have seen it first hand. In 2B last season I had a duo come to me, trespassing no less, looking for a doe they wounded. I almost never see other hunters encroaching on the area I hunt during archery season. Their crossguns were brand new, I wonder how long they practiced??..
A person can pick up a crossgun, and in a matter of minutes, be hitting the proverbial pie plate. What makes that any different that shooting a gun, besides a shorter range. Nothing.
I just don't think they belong in bow and arrow season. The cost to the whole concept of archery "bow and arrow" season will be lost. Lost to the fast-food, push-to-talk, on-demand, instant gratification new age world.
I can visualize the archery season morphing into just a more quieter gun season. And worse...shorter.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I understand what your saying Bob. I know that sometimes our fears are worse than the actual reality. But don't forget the reality of PA being 800,000 licensed hunters, plus non-residents. We can learn from other states, but all the while remembering that PA is unique in the sheer numbers of hunters, so I do fear the season being shortened, where maybe it wasn't a factor in another state. I don't fret about the tool itself, just the ramifications of it being unleashed in our unique situation.
The fact that all the pressure is coming from manufacturers is seriously disturbing. They are only concerned with creating a market for the product. How can that be good in the scheme of things?

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Our number of hunters does nag at me in this whole thing. Our hunter numbers are obviously the driving force behind the xbow companies.

Maybe the tools are in place to solve the dilemma. crossguns are legal in 2B. Heck, I even use one once in awhile in the late season for just the very reason you laid out. Maybe the way to handle this is for bowhunters to insist that the PGc study the things already in use in 2b and give us some assurances that its not changing harvest success rates here. After all 2B is heavily hunted in bow season. What better place to examine the effects of their use than right here in 2B!

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

If it weren't for the possible negative effects of allowing them statewide, I wouldn't have a problem with them. They are already permitted in 2B, whereI bowhunt, so I'm already dealing with them. As long as they're use is not detrimental to the herd or season, more power to those that use them. It's not anus vs. them thing. We are all hunters and at some point maybe I'll need to use one. I think you hit on a great point though:
What is the REAL story here?
I think that unfettered use could open a whole new scenario that we didn't bargain for.
Hopefully the GC will test the waters before plunging in.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Fromlivbucks: I have no predjudice toward crossguns. I wouldn't mind owning one. The whole idea of archery season was to use a primitive tool to take a deer. A self imposed challenge.

[/quote]

I don't know what a crossgun is.And as far as a primitive tool goes.I think that a recurve crossbow is more primitive than a compound verticle bow.It's been around a long time.I think,longer than firearms.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I see where you're coming from, but it's not like that.
The act of drawing a bow, in the presence of game, and then holding that bow and positioning the sights under that muscle stress, releasing the arrow and follow through makes any bow a different tool than a crossgun.
The crossgun is pre-drawn, storing the energy at the leisure of the shooter. The aiming is not affected by any muscular stress of holding the stored energy. Follow through is minimal, as the short bolt leaves the device many times faster than a bow with double the draw length.
The person simply aims and fires.
A compound is more efficient than a recurve, but it is still a bow.
A crossgun is a mechanized gun, without the aid of explosive propellant, using stored energy in it's place.
It is still a gun. You put it to your shoulder, aim from two fixed sighting points, and pull the trigger.
It's a gun.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I understand what you are saying.I hunt both verticle and horizontal bows,IMO a crossbow is still a bow on a stick.Think about all the modern accessories added to the recurve.Stabilizers,sights,illuminated sights,releases,cams,string silencers,vibration dampeners and probably some things I'm leaving out.Is this bow hunting? I think it is.It is just a step forward in technologyfrom a real bow.I own a recurve crossbow.Really, the only modernthing I have on it is the sights.Is using a crossbow bow hunting? I think it is.Just because you have a weapon that is a little easier to use doesn't mean you are going to get a deer.Just because you have a newer ,or more powerful gun doesn't mean you have a distinct advantage.I don't get a deer every year but I'm happy to get my share.I have been hunting with a friend of mine for over twenty yrs. and he has only gotten 3 deer.He's the type that had to get a 30-06 when his 30.30 was still working fine.Had to get the better bow when he was still hitting 1 1/2" circles with the old one.It's sad to say he can't hunt for dookie. And won't take advice.I think It's his hard german head.No offense to anyone I don't know.So while everyone is getting excited about xbows and speculating and anticipating about everything bad,just because you have a cross bow doesn't mean you are going to ruin archery for everybody else.You have to know how to hunt first.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Oh sure, I know.
There are guys that couldn't find a deer if you tied it to a tree, and gave him a map to where it was, letalone shoot it even if they had laser guided missles.
Like I said, I'm already dealing with them now in 2B. Allowing them statewide in bow and arrow season does not affect me further, as I only bowhunt at home in 2B. But like I said, should the season end up shortened,I would become highly enraged.
You know that once they are permitted, there is no going back, don't you? So we have to be diligent in how we go forward. Like Bob said, study 2B for awhile and see how things play out.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Right,I hunt archery in the special regs. area in 5D and I see crossbows but alot of the guys I talked with were already compound bow hunters,but not all.I have acccess to some private land,but I also hunt Ridley Creek State Park where you can hunt in any deer season ,archery only.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

How high do you think the archery harvest would have to be before the PGC decided to shorten the season. Would they shorten the season if the archery buck harvest was 35% , 40% ,45% or 50% of the total buck harvest?

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Well, I think the gun only hunters might get a little vocal if the early harvest shot up excessively. Or then they might go out and buy crossguns themselves, and guess what??? the season would be just another gun season, only quieter. The crossgun makers would put the gun makers out of business, and the falling ranks of gun owners would tilt the influence of the NRA in elections and lawmaking. Guns would be outlawed, because nobody would need one. The country would slip into dictatorship and the whole world would erupt in Anarchy...
And you wonder why some people object to crossguns!
I could be wrong. There's my qualifier.:D

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

DAMN!!!!!!!!!!! YOU GUYS ARE REALLY OFF THE WALL..............

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Uh, I beleive Greg was posting tongue in cheek!

The littler smilie and the last line should have been your first clue

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Surely I jest!
Yea, it probably won't happen quite like that.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

You just keep making things up as you go along. The definition of a gun is essentially a metal tube through which a projectile is fired at a high velocity with a flat trajectory.

Also, the length of the archery season is not based on the number of archery hunters . If it were, as the number of archers increased and the number of bucks harvested in archery increased, the length of the season would have been reduced.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Duh!!
You really have a hard one for me, don't you??
The more hunters there are, the more deer get killed, the shorter the season would have to be.
If we suddenly doubled the number of rifle hunters in the woods, what would have to happen?
What would the effect be on breeding if twice the number of bucks were removed from....Aw you know what???just forget it...
You're like a nagging woman!

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

You mean like a caulking gun, right?

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

No , I mean what the definition clearly stated. A calking gun does not fire a projectile with a flat trajectory . try again.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Ok,..how about a staple gun...or a glue gun...or a stun gun?

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Yes..it would have...except in an increasing herd. Thus HR.
Now that we have reduced the herd, the situation has changed.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

If anything that propels a projectile is a gun, then according to your definition or reasoning a bow is also a gun.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

There are a lot of fears as to how this will affect hunting. People are a bit more open-minded these days compared to in the past. At one time, the mere mentioning of the word would incite a riot. I'm not against them, perhaps I might want to use one when I'm older. It would keep an old-timer into the archery season for sure. I have reservations about the numbers of people who will jump in because it is easy to get started. Bob has a good idea with the mandatory archer/crossgun education. I would go for that, it would alleviate the notion that all one has to do is buy a crossgun and go hunting. We all know there is more to it.
If a guy is serious and goes about it in the right way, I have no problem with that. Having an open door to just buying one and going hunting the next day WILL attract the guys that will take bad shots and not follow up on them. We all know it. I've already witnessed it.
Call them what you will, you can't argue that to the user, a crossgun shoots as a gun would, not a bow and arrow.
In learning to shoot a bow, one becomes accustomed to the tools limitations. There is a mindset with crossguns that all you have to do is take it out of the box and go hunting. We can't afford to degrade the sport with that way of thinking.