RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I never said that, the concern is that the total harvest numbers could be compromised. the key component from a management standpoint is the antlerless kill. Always will be.

No such suggestion has been made by anyone but kooks like you

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I made the reference to removing excessive bucks prior to the rut.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I actually posed a question, I believe, when I said it.

What is your question?

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I didn't say you made that claim ,so what is your point?

Are you saying Livbucks is a kook? That's not very nice considering you two are friends.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

There you go again putting unrelated items together to twist and distort.

the kook statement was specifically directed at this quote by you:

Twist, lie, distort. You must have a background in politics.

You also demonstrate very little real knowledge of wildlife management but plenty of time to look up an overwhelming amount of information to use in your distortions.... You're too young to be retired so you obviously are apolitically appointed government bureaucrat

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Duh, What?...

Quote:

---

quote: Blewberd, Deddear, woman, beenthear,

I am not off topic since the reason you and Livbucks gave why the PGC might shorten the harvest was that too many bucks would be killed before the rut. But, you apparently don't understand why that is not a concern since you didn't address that issue.

---

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Sproulman, am I missing something ?? When did crossbows become legal to use in archery season in 2G ?? I agree that people are not sending in report cards if they are not tagging them, but I think there are people out there doing this with rifles, crossbows, bows etc during the middle of the day all year round. It has nothing to do with a weapon, but with the individual himself. There are just people obsessed with deer meat and they illegaly slaughter deer every year. There is noway to account for or "manage" deer populations because of the idiotsout there doing this.
I am curious for the places that went to cross bows that had instant success rates of 70%, how many of those people would have gotten a deer in rifle season ?? Surley a good portion of them ?? Just curious.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Wrong again. I've been retired for quite awhile and at least i know where to find the harvest stats so I can support my positions.

have you figured out why the pGC hasn't shortened the seasons in 2B or 5C?

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I believe they can be used in the early Muzzy season statewide.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Big Earl,are you from Pa.? Crossbows are legal in parts of 5C and 5D during the archery season.and have been for a few years.I guess not everyone reads the book when they get their license each year. "Special regs areas"

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Win.88, Yeah I knew certain areas were allowed crossbows, but the post I was refering too mentioned WMU 2G.

Livbucks, Yeah they can be used during the early muzzleloader season, but isn't the early season doe only ? The way I understood it: Early season you need muzzleloader and doe stamp to use a crossbow, late season muzzleloader stamp and you can use a cross bow and shoot a buck and doe if you have a tag. In sproulman's post he said something like a lot ofbucks were being killed in the early season. I just thought maybe I wasn't aware of something. Maybe I'm confused ??? :eek:

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

No, you are not confused at all.
Sproul contends that many guys hunt with crossbows and Muzzys during the early muzzy season, and when they see a big buck, they don't hesitate to shoot. Then they tag it as a bow kill or some sort of thing. He will clarify what he meant, or you can look back at his posts to see what I mean. Probably easier to just wait...and he will tell you I'm sure.
I believe he was talking about the use of crossguns in early muzzy season in WMU 2G.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

More deer , more hunters higher kill, hm-mm that makes sense. Also tighter quarters t hunt in, c'mon this is not hard and quit the rote of the evil manufacturers and lobbyists as you bow groups have commercial supporters as well. First you got to find a deer then you can shoot it, maybe. According to you all you have no deer, then you have deer and are killing tons and don't want anyone but Compounds to kill anymore. Then you have soewone saying all the bucks are killed early.........Face facts Xbow does not affect as much as you want to beleive and look at other states that have successful Xbow programs. Get over ot LivBucks and BTBow dude you have some sense of what is happening in the world, Livibucks I hope you own your own ground or hunt Public because w/ your attitude and delivery you would never get on mine, or my neighbors or his neghbors. I'll bet you get pissed at the evil Philly hunters who shoot your deer or the Burghers? I just get the feeling you want what you want and no one elses opinions count. It can't be that your opinion is wrong and that people aren't as anti everything as you would have us beleive. In addtion to your conspiracies of manufacturers blah-blah! Just let people hunt and go find a deer, adapt, overcome and just go hunt. I work too hard to have to worry about anxious people such as you who want it all to yourselves/ "Oh, by the way I saw 2 guy's w/ go into a bar and they were compound bow huntersand they just looked like they are ready to tresspass, work for manufacturrers and have to be deer wounders, why I'll bet they shoot em' in the butt because they over estimate what thier compounds are capable of !" Oh that's right, thatis only Xbow hunters that act like that!

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I have also met up with enraged dopeheads in the woods, that want to fight you for a stand site, on private property theywere trespassing on, and I wasn't.
Yes, it seems I get all the winners.
I feel safer on public land half the time. Nobody around.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

BIGEARL,welcome.

crossbow have been legal in wmu2g for while.

you have to be DISABLED.

you can go to millers gun shop in mill hall,pa. and see lots of big bucks shot by old farts like me.

what you wont see is they used a CROSSBOW.

i gave warning before and i will again,DONT get a disabled permit unless you dont expect to get hurt at work or want to file a lawsuit at work or in car wreck etc.

insurance agents and company lawyers are checking this out after a injury and i know of 3 cases that were thrown out because employee had a DISABLED PERMIT to use a crossbow and DID NOT REPORT that they had a disabled health problem to their employeer.:eek:

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

no, you are not alone on the IGNORANT ones.

i hunt sproul stateforest all my life.

last year i had 2 incidents.

1 guy put a threatening letter on my window of truck.

i also had incident in SGL252 hunting pheasants.

guy came up the hill and said he was here first and i knew that and i better leave with my dog.

100 years ago i would have shot a person like these and left them for buzzards;)

i had kids with me on sunday before deer season opened.

we went up to show kids where they would be hunting, on path was 2 adults .

they said HEY, WHERE DO YOU THINK YOU ARE GOING?
i said , UP TO SEE WHERE WE WILL HUNT ON MONDAY.

they said,OH NO, WE WERE HERE FIRST.

all these were out of area or out of state hunters.

this was great thing for kids to see and hear.

they were real scared to go there on monday, so i took them elsewhere.

what needs done is no hunter should be able to tell anyone they cant hunt on stateforestland.

their should be law on this to stop these low lifes.

45 years i hunt in this area, now i have IGNORANT so called hunters chasing us out of woods.

[:@]

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Doper Xbow carrying hunters....getting better, and now Livbucks you and Sproulman are on the same page together with stories of Xbow h=gangs running rampant in the woods , tresspassing, drinling, smopking dope and shooting bolts at anything that moves. . You know i have hunted for 40 years and never, never ran into these crazed people in the woods. Tresspassers usually mouth off some and leave when they know their wrong. I have seen many amzing tales of woods slobs and Xbow crazies in this rant. I guess noine of us are any good! But your stories are getting somewhat more interesting. Now I'm afaraid to go in the woods! Good for you Livbucks & Sproulman as we don't belong.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

BH1

How would YOU assess the folowing information that has develpoed over the course of this thread?

in 2004 the crossbow was legalized in area 2B which is in southwest Pennsylvania

Over the next four hunting seasons the archery harvest (which includes the harvest from both weapons) increased by 70% where the harvest in the rest of the state remained relatively stable. That certainly seems to support the concern that unlimited use of crossbows in archery season will lead to a spike in the harvest that could lead to shorter seasons. The only variable apparent in these facts is the crossbow!



You can call it a sense of entitlement if you want. I for one worked hard for our current season.I was part of the grassroots effort toextend our archery season into Novemebr and was right there in Harrisburg ( got seated right next to Ted Nugent actually) with the contingent from UBP at the PGC meeting when it was approved. Entitled? Yes I'm entitled to want to defend that!

This IS pennsylvania not Ohio or any other state. Ever since the season was extended to it's present length, there has been repeated attempts by a jealous few devout rifle fans to cut the bow season.

BH1, you come from a state where the harvest is apparently not currently at risk of getting too high. The Ohio DNR webiste indicates that antlerlesss tags are, more or less, freely available. That indicates that hunting pressure does not need to be further restricted in your state. Our antlerless tags sell out well before demand is met in many management areas. That means that ANY changes that could have an effect on harvest must be considered very carefully.

Bluebird2, deaddeer, ddear beenthere is being especially dingenuous. He has consistent in his criticism of all PA harvests claiming the harvest goals are to large statewide yet he professes support for an additional weapon that clearly, by the numbers he provided, skewed the archery harvest. His motivations and agenda appear more and more seem to be simply to cause controversy and to agitate those who have the audacity to dispute his consistant deluge of statistical distortions.


Here's a thought! Statewide, over the last several years, the numbers show that the archery harvest makes up 15-18% of the total harvest.
Archers currently make up about a third of all Pa hunters so the archery harvest is well within it's "fair share" All curent information indicates that crosbow support comes mostly from the industry trying to create a new market. The majority of support from everyday hunters comes from those not currently involved with archery.

Now lets look at this objectively.....

1 Archery hunting takes 15-20% less than it's fair share of the available harvest based on hunter numbers

2 Gun hunting currently takes more than it's fair share of the harvest

3 Gun hunters make up most of the non commercial support for liberalizing crossbow opportunities.

If the crossbow has enough support from hunters and not the industry , a point yet to be proven, it seems like the fair and easy solution is to carve out part of the gun season and give the crossbow proponents their own season.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

What is disingenuous is claiming that the PGC may reduce the length of the archery season due to an increase in the total archery harvest when the PGC promoted harvesting more doe in Oct. verse in the concurrent season.

If you knew where to find the harvest data and knew how to interpret it, you would see that while the buck archery harvest in 2G increased by 70%,the antlerless harvest increased by over 100%. So introducing x-bows in 2G did exactly what the PGC wanted it to do ,which was to increase the harvest of antlerless deer in OCT. The significant increase in the harvest had no adverse effect on the breeding rate because the B/D ratio was not effected significantly. However, the potential exists for it to have an adverse effect on genetics over the long term ,since more big bucks are being harvested before the rut.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

First of all we are talking about 2B not 2G. No one here is disputing the value of the increased doe harvest in Oct in 2B.

The concern about the effect of crossbows is in the rest of the state wher the PGC has expressed satisfaction with the current doe harvest structure in most areas.

Second, You have produced no evidence that more bug bucks are being harvested before the rut. Most of your posts have been complaints about less bucks of anyage being harvested. It's pure theory on your part and has nothing to do with thetopic of this thread which is crossbows.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Can we agree though that the bow hunters get the best chances for the largest bucks... First pick you can say and that the majority of big bucks are taken by bow hunters during early season? Why shouldn't the average joe who wants to hunt early season use a weapon simulair to a bow but easier to use? Only different from an Xbow and a reg one is the draw is held back. Everything else is the same as far as I can see.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

If there is a value to harvesting more doe in Oct. in 2B , then I am sure you would agree that there would be even more value in increasing the Oct. harvest in areas with poor habitat like 2G and 2F. Therefore, you should be supporting the legalization of x-bows statewide. Its just good deer management.
AR's insure that more big buck will be taken and your buddy Livbucks says his group only takes 10pts. or bigger buck in 2B. Isn't your buddies word good enough for you.Remember, you defended him on the Goliath issue even though he was wrong.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

You are the energizer bunny when it comes to continuing to seek out ways to argue just for the sake of arguing.

Get a life!

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Hey don't knock him. Reading arugments about deer hunting in Pennsylvania is one of the most entertaining and informative parts of this site.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Yes Sammy_tat, we can partially agree that archers get FIRST chance at the largest bucks.I've always saidbelieved the mature bucks killed in buck season are often killed during the first few minutes or not at all.

I know you've probably heard this before but why not take up bowhunting yourself? Yes we do get first chance but we pay a price for it. Not in dollars. The archery hunters that get more than a random chance at the best bucks have a lot of commitment involved. We don't just walk into the archery woods and pick out the best buck to shoot. I would estimate that the average archery hunter puts in 50 times more time into his sport than the average gunner. The guys who consistently harvest mature bucks probably put in a quantity if time anually that approaches the equivalent of a regular part time job. My scouting begins in March. I plant food plots, run trail cameras, hunt sheds all through the spring and summer. I start putting up treestands in late summer and have 10+ out every year. Archers spend many long hours on stand just to see a deer and many more to get a shot. The vertical bows, even the compound require reglar if not daily practice and while not all do it year round, many do.

So, forgive me for being unsympathetic to the guy who doesnt want to make the time or expend the effort to get that same opportunity. How would you like it if your employer decided hire someone who doesnt work as hard or as long as you and has less experience than you but paid him the same wage?

Harvesting mature bucks carries a price.You are welcome to pay the price we do but I won't support making it easier for those who are unwilling to pay the price I do. Especially when it could well cost me valuable hunting time that I paid for with my efforts.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Good point LCC!

Wouldn't it be nice though if the arguements could have just a little less distortion and twisting of the facts? I'd love to enter a debate where I didn't have to watch out for bad information or partial information ora twisting of the real information. Maybe a little less rehash of the same old things said 50 different ways and maybe let a crossbow thread stay just that, not simply degenerate into the same old PA deer wars.

Talk to ya Monday guys, I'm going to ......



CAMP!

Greg, I'm leaving you in charge of spotting the lies and distortions. Keep ole DD under control!

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

BTBI agree. I said the same thing on another thread not to long ago. After twenty some years of gun hunting and only for one week a year, I decided I wanted:
[ol][*]more timeto hunt[*]hunt closer to home[*]quieter time in the woods[*]a shot at the bigger bucks that I knew where being taken by the bow hunters.[/ol]
I didn't sit there and cry foul. I became a bow hunter. One of the best things I've ever done!!!!!

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I feel the same way about you. But you argue a point based on your opinions while I support my opinions with facts,which you in turn reject even though you provide nothing to prove I am wrong.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

There is no doubt a bow hunter gets the best chance to SEE a big buck. He gets to play all phases of the rut most years, he doesn't have to deal with everybody and there brother walking right past his tree stand every 30minutes like in rifle season ( atleast where I hunt some years ). Like CCPaHunter, I went out and bought a bow and over the last several years I am finally making the time to learn to shoot proficently and getting time to get out in the woods. On a side note 3 years ago I had 3 different nice bucks come to within about 70 yards of my stand early in the season, but like I said, it's easy to SEE them. With a rifle they would have been dead, but that's part of the challenge. Back to the subject of X-bows, I would like it if the PGC started off slow, like maybe having a one week x-bow season or a x-bow season concurrent with bear season. I think it should be limited in some sort at first until the FACTS are in on hunter success using an x-bow.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

How about a 2 weekXbow season before reg archery season? I can here the kicking and screaming for sure if thatwould happen. How many would switch to Xbows for that?:D

I do hunt with a bow. I got an old mathew ultra light solo cam. I should say I use to hunt with a bow. But I think an Xbow would be fun to use also. Freedom of choice to decide what I want to use.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I guess the reality is that the PGC is gonna do whatever they do in regards to the widespread use of crossbows and we'll have to live with it one way or the other. If that means "if you can't beat em', join em" to some than so be it. If it means come on here and argue through 27 pages of post......so be it. :D

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

sammy,welcome,add to your list SCOPE,thats a big advantage vrs compound bow.

if we had lots of deer,i believe that crossbow would be welcome by the TRUE compound shooter.

it all comes down to this, crossbow WILL put more hunters in woods and reduce the deer herd down from what it is now in archery.

so, guys/gals that can shoot a compound are not going to be in favor of having more hunters in woods after that buck that they had to themselves.

i feel same way even tho i like the crossbow very much and the people on crossbow forum are top notch and like crossbow a lot,they are fun to shoot.

i believe the crossbow may be legal for all in state soon..

then the disabled will not be as LUCKY as they were up to this time as more hunters will be in woods.

more hunters in archery WILL make bucks more NOCTURNUL,its bad enough right now ,add more hunters after LESS deer, oh my...........

my opinion. PGC has ruined hunting so far, what the heck, ruin it rest of way with crossbow hunters added to archery hunters.why not.[:-]

i agree btbowhunter, i expect to see more archery hunters with missing fingers soon,you should see guys i see sighting in their crossbows at sportsmans club with fingers on rail.:eek:

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

try putting up 10 stands on STATEFORESTLAND AND YOUR MOULTRIE trailcam.

they wont last week.hunting is HARDER .

i see you hunt PRIVATELAND..............:D

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Isn't that what you want for increasing the deer population, Deer going noctornal?

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

not in archery,thats when i hunt most.

if buck makes it thru archery, last week of rut, he should get TERMINATED the first or second morning of rifle.

if ever PGC lets you hunt deer the same time as bear, thanksgiving week, you will SEE end to deer hunting ,FOR SURE..........;)

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I know it's bad sproul. My daughtr been hunting 2 years now this be her 3rd and we have failed to score a deer for her. In the last 2 years I have seen maybe a dozen deer total with her. 4 bucks last year but the conditions was not right for her to crack one. We seen one doe and she was running last year. That was depressing for us I have to say. This year we have seen a few more deer than last couple years while out and about. Maybe this will be the year for her to take one or 2. If not we keep trying. Now my boy is a deer magnet. He got his first buck last year and does the years before. We try not to complain much when things work against us,we keep trying is all.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Yea, I was to lazy to have my string put back on when I jumped it off the cam. This was back in 94 and it sat in the closet like this since then.:D Now I think I tried to put it back on and failed to do so,But tomorro it will go to the shop andget it done. I shot my cousins today and it was like riding a bike. This should be in the bow forum but I am from Pa.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

this is why i suggested that only kid 12/16 can kill doe, not us .

you should have seen looks i got from hunters that were saying,SPROUL,THERE ARE NO DEER OUT THERE.
when i said above, I GOT DIRTY LOOKS.

why?they still want that meat..............;)


take a look at these

www.blackwidowbows.com;)

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I got a blackwidow from the late 70s. I have to look for it though.I think it's in the attic with my bear recurve.The bearis an old recurve still in its sheath. Never shot it. Found in an atic I was cleaning out for an elderly couple and they told me I could have it.This was 15 to 20 years ago I have to say.Forgot about them till you mentiontioned that site.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Yes Sproul, I do hunt private land. I also hunt public land as well. No I don't put out 10 treestands on public ground but I'll have 3-4 of those 10 on public ground. As for cameras, thye are pretty safe when I put them out but they arent out on public ground much past July. Private or public land, the most important component to being successful is paying your dues via time and effort.