RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

As far south as you possibly can get.........Across the river from Cape Giradeau , MO (I think Union Co, IL?)
I go out each year and stay with Greg/MO at his place in Jackson, MO and we hunt public land in the area.
I actually leave private land in PA to hunt PUBLIC land in IL. :D

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I'm about 100 miles northeast of that. And i agree that south is much better. You get within 100 miles of Chicago and suddenly lots of spots in PA wont seem so bad.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

[:'(]

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Here in PA. our bow hunter #'s has been on a steady decline from 340,000 archers to around 270,000 in 2007.
Matt when I started hunting in OH. 7 years ago I had the same misguided belief's about the cross bow as you currently do but have since changed my mind.
OH. is the perfect example of why crossbows should be permitted in PA.
The crossbow has only been a positive for the state of OH. not a neg.
It is not the evil killing maching that you and other's believe it to be. Pike

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Ok.......so why is it a POSITIVE for PA's bowhunters and our deer management plan?

What is going to make this a GOOD thing for PA?
We already have all the hunters we're gonna have, any new crossbow hunters we get are going to come from a percentage of regular bowhunters and the rest will be guys who currently rifle hunt only. We're not going to be suddenly bringing new people into the sport of hunting.

So someone tell me why we SHOULD have them what am I gonna gain and what are the current bowhunter's of PA gonna gain from this? (Aside from revenue to the state and crossbow manufacturers?)

Everybody from all over keeps telling me it's a good thing for PA and theymust know why.......somebody tell me WHY we need this? We're not the ones pushing for it. Tell me where the pro-crossbow people are lining the PGC meetings asking and begging for this? They're not, crossbow manufacturers have historically been the ONLY people speaking up in favor of wanting crossbows in PA, not the hunters. Where's the outcry and argument and all these "Facts" backing up why we need them? They never seem to get presented because NOBODY is asking for it.
We're being dictated to under the increasing liberal pressure and manufacturer dollars plain and simple, and in typical liberal fashion we're fed a false premise and then forced to defend ourselves against it.

It's gonna change the harvest dynamic, almost certainly shorten the season and not introduce any new HUNTERS, just transpose them into an already competitive situation in what's supposed to be a quiet solitary type sport.

I haven't heard one valid argument for why this is needed in PA only that it seems to work ok in a handful of unrelated states so we NEED it.

WHY? where are all these pro crossbow people to represent this sentiment and need for crossbows at the PGC meetings?? They never seem to speak up until it's being argued out by people from anotehr state on a forum message board.

Someone provide me with factswhy we need ithere and "Because it works in Arkansas" sure as heck aint gonna cut it. One of you out of staters wanna tell ME how you KNOW things will be just like Arkansas or Ohio?
You "Know" because you use or support a crossbow and don't HAVE any facts to back up why we should have them here.

I'm sick of defending something that everyone else seems to want and think we need without anyone providing the facts why. You want to just play a game of Russian Rullette with our season, enjoyment level and deer herd because "Hey it works for Virginia"

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

"Here in PA. our bow hunter #'s has been on a steady decline from 340,000 archers to around 270,000 in 2007."

Pike, that was due to the license jumping from $5.25 to $15.25. It's easy to look up.

Someplaces can handle crossbows without any negative effects. Like Ohio and much of Canada. Low hunting pressure and you rarely see another hunter.

Just don't call it bowhunting.

PA is stilldifferent today.

Someday it might not matter here either. With hunters so focused on the need for high deer numbers and the state having to reduce the herd because of negative impacts on many things people are upset about, they're hanging it up. And peoplehave so many other interests, so hunter numbers are falling here too. We may be even less of a minority shortly.

It might end up a free for all with the remaining hunters, sharp shooters and birth control all working to manage animal populations. Hunters will have liberal limits and weapon choices then.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Mark that is my point we are losing bow hunter's in PA. wile our neighbors to the west are increasing. If Crossbow can help save our sport and way of life I am 100% for it. The more bow hunters we have the better!!
OH. now has 300,000 bow hunter's we have 270,000 +,
During the 2006 4 month long OH. bowseason which is each & every sunday is included. OH. bowhunter's took 67,912 deer. 38,489 by crossbow and 29,423 by long bow.
How Many deer did PA. bow hunter's harvest in 2006 with a much shorter season less hunter's and sunday hunting is not legal? ( Not that I need to mention that the top 2 days each and every week during the OH. bow season is sat. and sun.)
I would also like to point out that OH. has half as many deer as PA. does.
Making the crossbow legal in PA. is a win,win situation for the herd, the hunters, the PGC. and the non hunting public that you love to mention in any type of deer mgmt. discussion Pike

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

To me, calling the crossbow something bowhunters use is like calling the in-line something flintlock hunters use.

They weapons are too different to be considered similar just because they both use limbs and stings in them. The scope, shooting it off a rail/rest and not having to draw it in the presence of game being the most significant. That drawing it is big during that nerve jangling time. It's a big time to get busted by the deer. The scope, shooting it off a rail and not having to draw it in the presence of game being the most significant. That drawing it is big during that nerve jangling time. It's a big time to get busted by the deer.

I'm sure you've gotten out hunting in PA enough, or talked to people, to see herd reduction did occur in most areas. Many that had pellet count densities near 40 DPSM pre-HR are now reporting 15 DPSM. The high densities today are around our major cities and the crossbow is already legal there.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Matt, love your enthusiam on the subject and pasion for compound. HERE is the reason I can say or feel I have a say in the legalization of the Xbow in PA/ I buy a license! I have a say and a vote when I purchase that peice of paper. My monies support the PGC as much if not more than yours, in fact I love the idea that Xbow manufacturers are screaming at the PGC meetings. That is why I pay them a price so that they can lobby for me. That is there job!
If you really want o go one more, I pay taxes on a cottage and acreage in PA, I have a say as to what I want to hunt with. Do you think because you live in PA you have the ultimate saY??? The PGC is it's own body and cost center. I buy a license I basically am buying a peice of stock which gives me the righjt to have a say. And before you go off about lout of state hunters, look at the monetary support fron OOS license sales not to mention supplies etc. We will get the Xbow my friend amse as you got the compound!So unless you can tell me WHY , I should not get a say, and a vote in the Xbow decsion I will buy more Xbow equipment, which will buy my lobbying support at the PGC meetings, letting them (PAPGC) realize an additionalrevenue stream that the PGC so sorely needs according to them! Maybe then they will back off the hunters and do what is right in game conservation!

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

No offense, you at least have a point as a license holder in teh state but again.............says the guy from OHIO. (who probably already uses a crossbow and simply wants to bring it here)

WHERE ARE THE PA BOWHUNTERS HUNTERS ASKING FOR CROSSBOWS?
That's my point.

And since I'll give you at least the fact that you buy an out of state license, tell me exactly how you know that crossbows will work here? Tell me how you think they'll affect the herd dynaic and harvest in the Big woods vs. the Suburbs, any affect on hunter numbers and crowding below I80 or above it? Is it going to shorten a season for us in a place where we ALREADY can't hunt on Sundays? What is the affect going to be on Southern State game lands where people are high and game is low already? Where in the state do you think it will help and where do you think it could potentially cause problems?

Tell me how you know this is good for PA beyond you feel entitled because you buy a license in a state that already allows you to use one so you want to use it here, because it will be NICE for YOU?

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Excellent post Matt.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Great post until one realizes that it is not just the compound bow hunters that make the rules.[8D]

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

But it has been the BOW HUNTERS that have pushed for and got the priveledge to hunt the rut,an archery bear season,50 yard safety zone,hunting hours extended and the list goes on.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I think that the traditional bow hunters pioneered all that and then came the compound bow hunters pushing for their rights. Now thecrossbow hunters areasking for a piece of the pie too.

Butno matter who pushes, the decision is ultimately made by folks beyond just the bowhunters.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

:DMatt, you got a point. Ar and Oh are not Pa. Neither is NJ. But, you might want to look at what happened there when the UBNJ [same as UBP] polled their own members on xbow inclusion: http://www.ubnj.org/camp/fire.html 50/50 split, at least, real truth may never be known. You don't speak for near the number of bowhunters you think you do apparently.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

It should ultimately be made by the PBC BOC, not a bunch of politicians going off half cocked. We have a good program with hunters setting hunting regulation. Hunters should be able to look down the road and understand why we don't want that done by politicians. That should be enough reason to stop this effort in itself.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Well, i am sure that if you can get sufficient signatures on a petition you can stop it. But since there is not even a consensus among compound bow hunters about the crossbow, good luck with that.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

awshucks, we haven't ever dropped below 3/4th's opposed in the UBP. Somethings wrong with them NJ folks. :)

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I just sent my UBP survey card back with a big YES vote to fight the scorn that is hanging over are heads.

Hatchet Jack

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Here you go. Latest from UBNJ who did their own in-house survey because the game department's survey didn't do the questions right - according to them.

http://www.ubnj.org/camp/fire.html


So much for so called bow hunter groups that claim to have the voice for all.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I'm not sure what you're saying, but perhaps it's that the people involved in a particular sport shouldn't have the only say over the equipment used in that sport.

I wonder if their management of hunting areas that only members can hunt and that also have shotgun hunts doesn't cause non-bowhunters to become members and that would throw off the survey results.

http://www.ubnj.org/deer/management.html

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Hatchet, I just mailed mine back, also with a fight it vote.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I'm pretty much saying that the very small minority of people who actually belong to Bow hunting organizations in any given state shouldn't call all the shots, especially since there is not even a consensus opinion within those organizations. On the other hand, if a clear majority of bow hunters statewide clearly voiced an objection then it would carry some weight. But that is not gonna happen and ya gotta ask yourself why. You also gotta consider that not all folks are "pure" bow hunters. many use a gun or bow depending on the time of the season or their mood. Does the fact that someone uses a gun too, or would like to use a crossbow, disqualify them from having a say in things?

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

So we agree it's unlikely all or even most bowhunters would respond in any way to this. Might be that they are too busy or they expect the state's bowhunting organization to fight the good fight. So to me, it would make sense to go to the state's bowhunting organization to get a reading on what the states bowhunters felt about issues affecting bowhunting. Our game commission does that.

80% of us use guns too. Just not in archery season. :)

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Yep, me too. No need for me to add anything else, Matt and Mark plus several others are saying it very eloquently.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Ditto on that Big John!!! And if you want to have a say in the survey then just join the UNITED BOWHUNTER OF PA or attend some of the PGC meetings and voice your opinion. Not to many CROSSBOW HUNTERS at them meetings!!! Just CROSSBOW COMPANY REP$$$$$$$$$. Thats about all see wrote for me on this subject, becuase this is just going in circles! LONG LIVE THE UBP!!!!!!

Hatchet Jack

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I've been a member since the year they started, and in every archery shop I've worked or managed, I had their membership flyers on the wall.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

First, I am NOT an advocate of the crossbow. I have shot one and killed deer with one and I personally much prefer the compound.

That being said, I hunt a lot in 2B where crossbows have been legal for some time now and I haven't seen any real difference in hunter numbers. This is a very populated area and hunting pressure has always been high including in the bow season. As a nmatter of fact, all hunter numbers in both archery season and gun season have declined slightly in theparts of 2B whereI hunt. I even notice fewer trucks and cars parked in areas that I dont hunt butthat I drive past in hunting season.One mans experiences cant always be expected to represent a whole area but my experience has been that very little difference has been made by the crossbow in 2B.

Again, I don't really care for crossbows but I no longer fear them as the ruination of our bow season. If anything, maybe we ought to use the controversy of this issue to press for mandatory bowhunter ed forall weapons that propell an arrow, bolt, atlatl dart, or whatever.

Mandatory bowhunter ed wouldprevent a swell of miguided hunters looking for a shortcut or the "easy way" which is what many crossbow opponentsseem worried about.

Personally, I dont worry about a few more hunters in archery season no matter what they caryy, but the thought of anything that would encourage the opening day wonder type does worry me.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Lol, you can't be serious? Ninja gun hunters invade UBNJ to get easy dumb urban deer skew xbow poll? "A" for effort..."D-" for common sense. The survey results from NJ Dept of Wildlife came back 54% bow hunter only approval for inclusion. Next?

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Too busy to take a look at the link? Not a problem, I'm here for you. Note the firearms ID card requirement and the shotgun and ML test requirements. So maybe not to skew a poll but to gain access to good hunting lands? Seem far fetched? Really?

"NOTE: A current Firearms Identification Card (FID) is required to sign up for ALL hunts starting in 2008. If you don’t have one, please apply with your local police department to obtain one or do not apply to the program.

Just because you belong to UBNJ organization it does NOT mean that you can just start hunting at one of the identified properties. You must first apply for each hunt individually using the specific application form assigned to that hunt. All hunt applications and the $10.00 non-refundable fee will be sent to the address listed on the application.

At the end of the application process deadline, the UBNJ hunt manager will communicate to the hunters their status. Priority, for most hunts, will be based upon date of application and past performance of hunter contribution. If you are approved you must attend an orientation, pass a proficiency test for each firearm (bow and/or shotgun/ML) and receive written permission from the Hunt Manager. Each hunter must be able to shoot 3 out of 4 arrows with broad heads into a 9 inch pie plate or 3D target vital zone at 20 yards. For the shotgun or muzzleloader test, the hunter must be able to shoot 3 out of 4 slugs or bullets into a 9 inch ring at 50 yards."

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

:Dread that along time ago, used the archery portion to ask just how many hours it takes the average person to be able to hit a pie plate at 20 yds w/ a compound w/ all the bells and whistles including the one made in NJ w/ 99% let off you can nock an arrow and draw it back then hang it drawn on stand. Sounds more like they are accomodating bow hunters that want to shotgun hunt,not a bad thing btw. Still can't see any connection to the xbow poll/surveys, they is what they is: "split down the middle" and 54% of archery only hunters. Want to talk about former prez JS claim NJ has highest archery success per cent in nation? Why shotguns, lol.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Many of us use traditional equipment and many limit, or claim to, their shots to 15 yards. They'd have to work at the test.

I wonder how they would tell if they were really bowhunters?

I have seen the opposition fall over the years, one survey almost 10 years ago with close to 98% opposed to something like 76% 4 years ago. But 50/50 seems incredible to me as it was to the leadership of UBNJ. A sin equal to allowing worm fishermen in the fly fishing only section of the stream. :)

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

If the bow hunting organizations want to make an effort to get a good reading on howa broad range of hunters across the state feel about the crossbow, then fine. But they don't seem to be doing that.

Using a crossbow is like using worms in the fly section of a trout stream? Logic like that is exactly why you're gonna lose on this issue.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

And I have the utmost respect for them. I've often stated imho, trad guys should get first whack at the deer. I'd like to watch a guy make a self bow or fab his own arrows from a chunk of wood. Archery has changed more in our lifetimes than in the last several thousand years. If trad were the only option available other than xbows I wouldn't have much if anything to say. However, that baby got threw out w/the bath water in 1969 and Mr Allen and Mr. Jennings were dumping the buckets, lol. Shoot what ever and shoot it well.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

I've already been identified early on in this thread as being "long in tooth" and I'll just go ya one further....I shot my first bowkill deer in 1962 with a 50 lb. Ben Pearson recurve and a cedar shaft. That equipment is long gone. Archery will always be here no matter what you use. Time stops for no man.......

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

sMatt sorry been gone for a while. It is nice for me to carry the Xbow in Ohio. (I own ground in PA, you probably missed that in your passion to have the woods to yourself). I enjoy shooting it as well as compound bows. The guys in my camp in PA use compound and Xbow. It is a non issue! Do you really think this rant you guys are laying out is going to have any effect on bow type legislation? PGC will see a revenue stream and I will hunt on Sunday and I will hunt w/ Xbow. This has nothing to do w/ conservation as the path laid out by the PAPGC is reduce the herd and make money!! You bow boys ain't doing it, bow numbers decrease, revenue decreases you lose! Again I understand your passion, but you are not alone in the woods. Do you also want to boot small game huntring during bow? Jeeze guy this is exactly why I won't join UBPM org.'s as they are right and feel they are only ones in the woods or deserve the woods. These sections about woods to crowded already, what is that about? Again bow boys are displaying entitlement. I pay the fees, I pay taxes I get a say and I support Xbow. Money talks it all comes down to that. Heck man, if it was a matter of what is right and wrong you all wouldn't have Rendell in office attacking your rights! There is a target not me! Oh and by the way Matt, your Compound lobbbyists nevr attend these meetings, if they are npot involved at that level don't support them as they atre watching your sport die on the vine! XBow lobbyists at least realize the impact of attendance at these functions??? Hunt safe my friend, lot of people out there crowding the woods!

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

WOW ! this is a very arguementitive topic . All I know is that if there isn't something done about the deer herd in PA it doesn't matter what we hunt them with , you can't shoot a ghost with any bow that I am aware of !

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

It really isn't hard to build a herd up. You just reduce doe tags.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Wut, reduce Doe Tags to increase the herd ... So, apparently RSB's theorem of a larger herd thru the increased breeding productivity(with a smaller sized herd) isn't working afterall, who would have ever thunk it.

RE: Crossbows introduced for regular archery season in PA
 

Exactly!

The same exact 'stuff' was predicted then, (yet Never came to be, wasn't true then and certainly isn't now as there are Many more deer now compared to then)..... and this is the exact same thing, the only difference is "then" there were not nearly as many deer anywhere as they are now!

NO one is asking for anyone to be forced to use a crossbow, only that those who wish to use another BOW (crossbow) be allowed to do so in PUBLIC seasons.....exactly as happened with compounds......

Question:

Who "thinks" we would have a bow ONLY season Now, had compounds not been included?

Keep in mind that over 90% hunt with compounds today.....

Seriously think about that and the implications now when we're losing hunters at an alarming rate.......and the Anti Hunting factions along with the AR groups wish to totally eliminate Bow hunting Nationwide.

Whatever your "stance" on this issue there is no disputing that full crossbow inclusion does aid in hunter recruitment and retention, the data proves that it does.