RE: PA hunters no reports
 

SJ, I would love to have 50 deer per sq mile, but I know the land I hunt and most wood lots cannot support that many. I would think that instead of 5 does and 5 bucks the ratio is more like 8:2. I know there is more than 20 deer in the area I hunt, which is close to a sq mile. The bucks are small to average with very few wall hangers. The does are a good size. I'd like to see more and bigger buck and less doe. The only way to do this is to shrink the doe population, let the dominant bucks breed and have more feed for the bucks. Which like you said would shorten the rut and possibly send the bucks to closed land where there are more does to breed. So I guess the question is, Do you want to see deer everyday, more doe and smaller bucks? Or see the occasional deer with bigger bucks and bigger doe?
I'd personally choose less deer and bigger bucks.

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: PA hunters no reports
 

SJ,I agree 100%. As soon as a buck is legal according to AR, dead deer. Weather this is a mature buck or not. Some bucks sport 8 point basket racks their first year is that a mature buck? No. Alt is way off base on this issue & he conned alot of hunters in believing they will all get a crack at B&C bucks. The issue that the habitat can't support deer is also bogus, for years Pa. has one of the largest deer herds & harvest in the country. Now all of the sudden the state can't support the herd this is B.S. What about nutrition? A biologist like Alt should say something about that, it plays a key role in antler development. I guess thats why 10 counties have a 4 point rule, we got the farmland here & deer generally grow larger racks. Alt got his wish & I'm sure some hunters will get bigger bucks, but in the long run the herd will shrink & keep shrinking then everybody who jumped on Alt's bandwagon of B.S. will want his head.The PGC has caved in to the insurance company's, tree farmers & all the other farmers crying about crop damage. We seen 28 deer in our corn field on Friday Dec.27th, from what we could see 8 were bucks, 3 were pretty good bucks. That's about a 3-1 ratio not bad. Plus most of the does srop 2-3 fawns & at least one of those are a buck. Nothing wrong with taking a doe, Alt wants them wiped out. So all you guys wjo are happy with Alt & AR's, keep killing the does, why is it most duck hunters shoot drakes & pass on hens? Think about that. Shoot all the hens= NO EGGS!

RE: PA hunters no reports
 

My idea of the how AR's works is this. EX:10 bucks on the property and 20 doe(a good 2:1),2-10 points or better, 2-8 points, and 6 illegal deer(say a 2-6 points, 2-4 points, and 2 spikes). The 6 illegal deer obviously make it until next year. One of the 10 points get gets shot the other makes it. Both 8 points also are taken out. That leaves 1 monster buck and the six illegal bucks for next year plus the button bucks that also made it through. 10 doe are taken out. The other 10 have twin fawns. 5 buck and 5 doe. The 10 point is bigger, the 6's are now and 8 and a 10, one of the 4's is an 8, the other a six. The buttons that made it make up the illegal group for the folowing year. Now obviously we can't continue to take 10 doe a year. And that's hopefully when the PGC stops handing out this great number of doe tags, but until then we have to properly manage the property we do hunt and don't overkill the does, until the PGC comes out with the smaller DMU's and can better manage the herd. This was just an example, and maybe just what I see what is going to happen and how it can help the population. This is close to what I've seen on the property I actually hunt, except I think we have closer to 30 antlerless deer instead of 20. SJ, I apprecaite this debate we are having. Most blow up with name calling someone getting mad. I do see the other side of the coin alot better now. I still think the AR's will work and hopefully I will be right. If not I'll be calling you to find out how to fix what we have done.

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: PA hunters no reports
 

Here we go again.
Why cant you understand the simple logic that AR will not work!!!!
You are assuming that no button buck or buck with shed antlers are being shot. WRONG!!!! More were shot this year and many more will be shot in the years to come because of ALT's wisdom in hammering the doe population. You see, the less doe that there are, then the more buck without antlers are going to be shot in their place.
Dr. Alt is his supreme wisdom said that since 80,000 or so buck are being protected then he had to increase doe tags by 80,000 . WHY???
Isn't this insane??? First of all a lot of those protected buck are already dead due to youth hunters and/or because of them being a button buck or a buck with shed antlers they could have been shot as doe.
Secondly, killing 80,000 more doe is much worse for the population than killing 80,000 buck. With most doe capable of fawning twins the number of deer dead is closer to 200,000 instead of 80,000.
I also heard through the grapevine that next year Alt plans on having an October doe season for all hunters and a new AR of 3 points on one side (not counting brow tines). GREAT..., Howmany 8 poimters did you see this year???
I also heard this one, which I cant believe, but in the following year he plans to shut down doe season altogether. Don't ask me why.
I hope none of this is true but my source is pretty good. The same one that told me about the AR and in-line and extended bear season well before the good doctor went public with it.
I really feel sorry for the kids coming up. They are being lured into the sport by being allowed to shoot any deer and soon there wont be many deer to look at let alone harvest.
At least I'll be able to say that I hunted during the "good old days".

RE: PA hunters no reports
 

Mr D., nothing you brought to the table has any merit based on facts. You give us nothing but speculation and your opinion. Where are your numbers that all these button bucks are shot? All the meat processors I've talked to saw no increase of buttons taken than previous years. If a bucks antlers have fallen off prior to rifle season and taken mistakenly for doe? Then what chance had he during the previous seasons 3 day doe season or muzzleloader season? Fact is, very few are taken for doe, yes it happens but the numbers I'm sure are very low. If antler restrictions are not going to work? Then why is it, everywhere and I do mean everywhere that large tract hunting cabins have been practicing it for years and the buck to doe ratio is up, the herd is healthy, and the quality of the bucks are up? This is nothing new and you need more education on deer management. Fine don't listen to Alt, but at the same time, don't listen to your buddies either. You better do some research because I'm sure Mr. Alt has done his....it's nothing new.

You can't argue with success and the fact is, antler restrictions and the taking of doe in large numbers to balance the herd has been working everywhere it's been implemented.

Your area of the pocono's can't speak for the state as a whole. If you don't have the habitat, your not going to hold deer. The deer are not going to stay which in speculation, is probably your situation. Plant food plots, grow your habitat and balance your herd and you too will have many deer sustained by their habitat and healthy big bodied bucks with trophy antlers, healthy birthing does and fawns with better genetics. If you don't want that, keep belly aching and being part of the problem.

<font color=blue>Good Luck and Good Shooting</font id=blue>

<font color=red>Rob</font id=red>

RE: PA hunters no reports
 

Rob,
Check out the state of Wisconsin.
They have been practicing AR for a few years now implementing the same plan as Alt's. Five friends of mine went out there for a 5 day hunt and in the entire week of hunting they were only able to harvest one deer......... a doe.
All Im saying is that I would rather have more deer with less quality racks than very few deer with some nice bucks. It will never be the same as it used to be. It will turn into the Adirondack type hunting situation and I dont want to see that happen.
All I could do is hope that Im wrong, but I fear I am not, especially on public land where personal deer management is beyond ones control.
You talk of the meat processers as a way of getting numbers. I know that in my gang we all process our own deer and Im sure we arent alone. And dont forget the protected deer that are shot and left as coyote bait (however small their number is) that wouldnt have been wasted without the AR's. As for the buton buck and buck with shed antlers possibly being taken in the previous seasons 3 day doe season, I agree some were killed but this year he wants 80,000 more doe killed than the previous year. It makes sense that more of these buck will be killed with these numbers.
If AR's main goal is to reduce the deer herd and produce buck with larger racks then it WILL work, but the deer and especially the large buck will be far and few between. There will be more food for them and they will have to travel less to obtain it making them even harder to hunt.
Our area of the Poconos isnt notorious for large racks but we did have large numbers of deer which fit our needs just fine.
I remember as a kid that the PGC used to ALWAYS say ANY deer is a trophy so why now isnt thtt so?
My bottom line is that the deer numbers have to fall and I for one dont want to see that happen.
Sincerely,
Mr.D

PS.
Here is a direct quote from one of Georgia's whitetail biologists:

Kent Kemmermeyer, Georgia’s deer specialist, says that doe populations in some of the state’s QDM areas were hit so hard they negatively affected the success of the programs. Kemmermeyer says, “States have to be careful not to allow hunters to overharvest does when they start a QDM program. The impulse is to pound the does to equalize the buck-to-doe ratio. The problem is that the buck-to-doe ratio is often so out of whack that if you are too aggressive your herd will be reduced too much. It’s better to do the adjusting over the course of four or five seasons. Game managers have to be especially careful, because when hunters can’t find a harvestable buck, they will often use a doe tag instead.”



Edited by - mr.d on 01/04/2003 19:39:13

RE: PA hunters no reports
 

For all you Alt and AR supporters,
I recomend you vist the PA hunting net site and read the posts there.
There is little love there for DR. Alt's program.
http://www.huntingpa.com/
Click on message board and then enter the General Hunting Forum

RE: PA hunters no reports
 

MR.D, I find it &quot;hard&quot; to believe anyone would bash Almighty Alt & his band of Nazi cronies. In last weeks paper he was quoted as saying &quot;it's so nice to have hunters come up to you & thank you for what you're doing to help the deer population instead of someone coming up to you & wanting to bash you're teeth out.&quot; I would personally like to punch his teeth out of his two-sided lying mouth. I also agree with the saying any deer is a trophy, but let's face it everyone will shoot a record book buck in the next year or two according to Alt. Come on jump on Alt's bandwagon of lies, don't be cynical about the PGC they're going to give you a chance at a B7C whitetail! Then after the herd is wiped out you can go to another state & hunt! Give AR a try the messiah of the PGC said it will work so I believe him! HEHEHE Yeah right!