RE: PA hunters no reports
 

He was trying to make the point (alt) that this problem is caused by to many deer in general. He explained this to me two years ago so maybe my explanation is not 100% accurate but the jist of his explanation was that a buck spends little time eating thru the rut and in areas with high doe densities the rut is played out for several weeks longer than usual. ie: the end of Ocotber thru December.

The facts were that the deer (bucks) are not eating as they should due to chasing doe and the mountainous area where we hunt (no farm land around) to provide great nutrition, the bucks sometimes tend to loose their horns earlier than normal due the testosterone levels dropping due to poor nutrition. Especially younger deer with their first set of antlers (caused by poor habitat and too many deer).

All I know is thats a pain trying to hunt bucks when some have already dropped, and frustrating when you are trying to balance the heard and end up shooting a buck with no horns that you thought was a nice big doe. Hopefully this will get bettter with time as we better balance the herd out.

RE: PA hunters no reports
 

I would think that bucks dropping their antlers early would result from the season being later than last year calendar wise. It has to factor in to it thanksgiving 01 was nov 22 and this year it was Nov 28 so almost a week later. I am sure being that it is later in the year it had a lot to do with antlers being shed. Yes it does depend on testosterone primarily no ifs, ands or buts about that all I am saying is that with the season later in the year more people are seeing sheds and half racks due to the season being later in the year.

I just hope a few stay on for another 2 weeks or so for the smoke pole season. Don't get me wrong I have nothing against taking doe. I had 2 antlerless tags and have filled the freezer, but the excitement of a large rack working his way in is such a fun time plus thinking that I would be taking a nice large doe with the muzzleloader only to find a pair of balls would be a bit of a disappointment.

Doesn't the anterless/antlered nature of the late muzzleloading season almost violate some of the principals of the AR? No scopes limited range gun, Some/most Deer have shed antlers, How can you be certain no stubs? So there will be antlerless bucks taken that would have been legal and illegal under AR but now legal cause of no antlers at this oint in the year.Doesn't it seem to run backwards to the AR?

RE: PA hunters no reports
 

Sj, I'm not sure how long PA has been back dating fetuses. I first heard about it at a seminar held by the GC when they were pushing AR. I would think that we need to get 85-90% of the does bred in Oct-Nov instead of the 65-70% where we are at now. I've read that most of the mature bucks will not take part in the later ruts because they are still recovering from the primary rut. Where as the smaller bucks will have more energy and breed the late does.

RE: PA hunters no reports
 

I hunted more than half the available days in both archery and gun season and only know of one buck left to rot. It was a 4 pt in Allegheny Co (a legal buck there) that was shot by a muzzleloader in the early antlerless M/L season. I did just read in the Pittsburgh Tribune Review that there was a substantial number (maybe as much as 10% of the buck kill) of mistake kills turned in and the $25 fine paid. Personally, I think 10% is way too high but it does appear that these hunters did the right thing in turning themselves in. Hopefully the numbers will go down each year. I'm sure that the kind of guy that would turn himself in for this kind of mistake is likely to treat it as a learning experience and be more careful next year. I would also hope that the Deer cops wouldn't be as lenient on repeaters.

Member of NRA, BASS, Buckmasters and Life member of UBP.........Kill a big doe, Let the little bucks grow

Edited by - btbowhunter on 12/17/2002 16:17:40

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RE: PA hunters no reports
 

Testosterone levels dropping is the key to antlers dropping. After the rut, bucks in good health do indeed carry their headgear longer.
Why then are we seeing so many dropping their antlers early? Are they all in poor physical shape from running down the tremendously large doe herd you all talk of??? Or are we simply seeing more buck being killed as doe simply because there are a lot less doe than you all think. On my mountain where I hunt archery season and early muzzel loader I saw only 2 doe and 6 different buck. I took a doe with the bow and didnt see a doe during the 4 days I hunted with the in-line. I saw the same 6 protected buck on several occasions. I firmly believe that there are less deer because of the larger yearly limit of doe. The PGC has you all believing their lies. They are interested only in less deer. Do you realize howmany protected buck with dropped horns will be shot with the flintlock?
You cant raise trophy buck without protecting the button bucks.

Here is what I see in 3 years...
You shoot the trophy buck
If you shoot the button buck that would grow into the future years protected buck then there are no buck left to breed with the does.

This is elementary Biology people...
Dont buy into the PGC's plan. It will not work.
Oh yeah, someone said that there is twice as many deer today as there were 20 years ago. Do you honestly believe that bulls$#$. Where did they get their numbers from, the PGC???
I've been hunting for 32 years and can easily say that each year it gets worse.
14 guys in our camp in the Poconos and we got 1 seven pointer and 3 doe and NO misses. Pretty sad if you ask me.
Oh by the way dont be surprised if the PGC ask you to buy a turkey stamp soon. They'll tell you its to thin the trememdously large herd that are destroying crops. They may even let you take 2 in each season. Arent they nice? (check out the increase of insurance claims filed because of turkeys hitting winshields and you'll see the real reason for their kindness)
Someone here said that I may be eating crow in a few years for thinking this way and maybe I will since that is probably the only thing that will be left to harvest

Edited by - mr.d on 12/23/2002 19:41:47

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RE: PA hunters no reports
 

Thanks SJ, My guesstimated numbers were pretty close. The numbers don't sound too bad when you talk of 10 deer, but what about 1,000,000? A prolonged rut is not what the deer need, although that is nice for us to hunt. Longer rut means later fawns, which leads to late breeding does which leads to longer rut which leads to late....you know. A shortened more intense rut where only the dominant bucks get to breed is what is best for the deer. Getting as close to 1:1 ratio is the only way to accomplish this.
Buttons were always and will always be shot during gun season. But the bucks protected by AR more than make up for the BB's being shot. Plenty of BB's do make it through the year and will be enough to replenish the bucks that are harvested.

RE: PA hunters no reports
 

MR.D, you hit the nail on the head. The PGC & Alt are full of it!What about all the mature bucks that have shed thier horns & are shot & tagged anterless? Did ALMIGHTY ALT take this into consideration? My guess would be no or he would have cancelled second season archery & muzzle loader. I mean if we're going to protect bucks so they can be B&C class deer, let's protect them.. cancel late seasons so nobody mistakenly kills a buck that shed his horns. Habitat & nutrition are also key roles in growing bigger bucks. That is why 10 counties have a 4 point per side AR, more & better food sources.

Edited by - Turd Fergusen on 12/27/2002 05:01:38

Edited by - Turd Fergusen on 12/27/2002 05:05:46

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