sproulman

STARVED AND DISEASED BUT STILL BREEDING,hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,thats good one, i never knew that starving deer had all those FAWNS..

T_in_PA3

They keep breeding in Africa too. Must not be any starving there either.

Buckshot

I agree George, the one that has me stumped is the 2002-2003, as I recall that was one of the most brutal winters in recent memory, 3-4 feet of snow from december till march. We hunted big hollows in 2002 that had plenty of deer in them and thenagain in2003 and they were darn near devoid of deer.

R.S.B.

The reason for that and what both you and George seem to be missing is how the winter actually affects the deer population. The reduction in the next fall deer sightings usually isn’t a result of the deer that died through the winter as much as it is from the reduction in the fawn survival rates following a hard winter.

But, before I get into that a will try to clear George’s thoughts that the deer mortality was backwards do to having more mortality with fewer deer. It might seem that way until you realize that the mortality is connected to the winter conditions. Back when we had more deer we were having a run on mild winters combined with good fall mast conditions. That allowed the deer herds to go through the winters in better condition and have higher fawn survival rates. That in turn allowed the deer populations to build to the maximum number that could be sustained with ideal conditions.

Even after we started reducing the deer numbers the habitat in many areas didn’t have enough time to recover before we got hit with those hard winters of 2002/2003 and 2003/2004.


2001………………..2
2002………………..1
2003………………..3
2004……………….10
2005..........................4

As you will the winter deer mortality in my district was higher then previous year in the spring of 2003 but still not excessive. That is pretty typical of one year of harsh winter conditions. The deer move into the wintering grounds in early 2003, which hadn’t been used much in recent years due to the mild winters. The deer hit those wintering grounds pretty hard but the winter opened up before we had a lot of mortality. What did happen though is the bred does lost so much weight through the long winter they couldn’t build their bodies back up to weight and get enough nutrition to the fawn the were carrying for those fawns to be up to the correct weight before they were born. That then meant we had few fawns in the population that fall. That is what made the first difference in the number of deer hunters were seeing in the fall of 2003.

Then in the 2003/2004 winter we had another long hard winter with even more snow and for a longer period then the year before. This time though when the deer pulled down into the wintering grounds the habitat in those areas was still in poor condition yet from the damage the deer had done to it the winter before. During that year the deer really suffered and as you can see when you look at the mortality numbers there was a lot more mortality following the 2004 winter. Of course that also meant a lot fewer surviving fawns again in the spring and summer of 2004. Once again hunters saw another decline in deer numbers since we then had two years in a row when the fawn recruitment was lower then the natural mortality of the deer herd let alone what were harvested by hunters.

Then in 2005 we still didn’t have a mast crop and though the winter wasn’t as long or harsh the habitat still hadn’t recovered from the years of being over browsed. The recruitment was somewhat improved the next spring but we were into the compounding factor by then of having fewer deer to reproduce due to the fact that the does that should have been producing fawns didn’t exist because they had died within a couple of days of being born back in the spring of 2003.

We still haven’t totally recovered from those harsh winters though we are making headway. More importantly though is the fact that the habitat has had an opportunity to see some recovery the past couple of years and that is going to allow the deer herd to increase a bit higher then it had been before.

The key then will be to protect that habitat recovery instead of the deer or we will just see the deer herds crash again the next time we have a couple of harsh winters.

When I get the time I will post the research data results on fawn survival rates based on the amount of nutritious food available to the does in the winter and spring. Perhaps that will help some of you better understand how deer herd reduce their own numbers, even without hunting harvests, following a harsh winter.

R.S.Bodenhorn

BTBowhunter

By now Sproul, you should have learned that I speak my mind whether its to agree or disagree, to give praise or to criticize.I call it as I see it. Period. And as for climbing the corporate world, Iquickly learned that people who tell it like it is only get to climb the ladder if they're truly great at what they do and then very rarely so I became self employed.
You can call me a lot of things but a suck up is not one of them.

My advice for you, let go of the past, get yourself unstuck from the 60's and 70's and bring yourself into this century when it comes todeer management and your favorite pastime. Your favorite stomping grounds have changed and not for the better. You need to adapt. I'm sure your heart is genuinely in this thing but you need to catch up with the world.

Buckshot

RSB, I understand that, what Im trying to figure out, is how with what had been some really mild winters, you were seeing more winter kill. Especially after 2003, one would think that after such a harse winter with what had to be an significant increase in winter kill you saw more winter killed deer afterthe mild winters. You would think that once the 2003 winter was done and some deer died and the does that didnt reabsorbed their fetus's that with a decrease in over wintering deer and a mild winter there would be less winter killed deer not more. After all with less deer, logically there should be less winter kill.

Wow that one really has me baffeled, from my log book, 2005 had one of the best mass crops Ive ever seen, I remember turkey hunting near Galeton and there were so many acorns one the ground that you could have shovled them up. I will say one thing, I think the winter of 2003 is by far the biggest reason for the herd reduction in 2G.

I dont think hunters have near the impact they think they do. Ive been hunting south of wheeling WV for the past 11 years, we have roughly 60 dpsm, but the hunters hunt the same way year after year, they climb into their treestand at dawn and climb out at dark, the deer know this, and after the first day tend to lay up in small, hard to reach gullys and hollows. With all the deer down there the most Ive ever seen in one day is 12.After all the local hunters leave, I usually still hunt, when done correctly this is by far the best way to shoot a good buck down there. Now in PA it seems the hunters for the most part hunt just like their WV counter part, still hunting has become a lost art, and if they cant shoot a deer from a stand they arnt going to shoot one.

BTBowhunter

No Sproul, you are not a fibber! You aremistaken about the photo though. It's an APfile photo of a whitetail deer. Where it was taken, nobody knows. What you saw was indeed a healthy whitetail deer not a starving deer from that compound.

And I didnt even need to call Mythbusters

sproulman

buckshot, liked your comments other than 1..deer in 2003 did not die from starving etc..its DOE TAGS and multiple kills..its hunters shooting fawns,its no fawns do to yotes,now PENN STATE SAYS bears..

yotes are doing number on fawns, i see it,hunters and lack of deer are causing rest..

i really think that bucks that are left are not getting caught up with doe that are left to mate..i seen 1 buck going 3 miles this year after doe that were left,3 miles, i never saw that before..

and guess what doe were doing?RUNNING FROM THE HUGE 8 POINT BUCK,sadly, i ended his great adventure..

3 gobblers

sproulman I agree with you . But what season was it you ended the 8 point,s life archery, rifle, cause next someone,s gonna tell you the rut was way late this year for that buck to go that far for some tang

NorthPA

S-Man, the fawn mortality studies aren't new. I don't know exactly when it was confirmed, (through "proving it" forensically),that bears take a significant amount of fawns, but I do know it's been several years now that it was published.
Yotes -- of course they are predators also.
But they are way more efficient when habitat is poor. Again, "actual studies" show that when there is good shrub layer and healthy habitat, deer are less susceptible to predation than when habitat is stressed and open.

I Haven't quite figured out what your are saying about a buck going 3 miles after a doe???
Did you not know that bucks travel for miles during the rut? That is common. They breed one doe and off they go looking for another.
During the rut I see bucks here that I've never seen before.
Maybe I'm not understanding what point you are trying to make, but again, radio collar studies long, long ago, have proven how bucks roam long distances.
I 'm also trying to figure out what the significance of a doe running from that buck is???? Does run when they are not yet ready, but bucks will and do, chase regardless. Bucks can sense (flehming - sp?) when a doe is "approaching" estrus. They will stick right on their tail until the magic happens, but does don't allow them to "do it for fun." They only stand for them when it counts.
Geez, this birds and bees stuff is something you shouldv'e already known.
Just kidding -- couldn't resist that.

Hey, just curious, how did you watch a buck go three miles?
And "when" did you see this happening?