"High Grading" is a potentially destructive practice of any natrual resource (Whitetail Deer, trees, etc.) where only the biggest, best or largest of that resource are harvested. Sometimes it's referred to as "taking the best and leaving the rest".

With respect to New Yorks deer herd I really don't see how it applies.

I fully support a young hunterhaving the right to harvest any buck that he has the opportunity to harvest.In fact in theunits where the AR's are being tested hunters under 18 can take "any" buck with at least one antler of 3" length. Clearly the DEC has considered this.I also support management in so far as harvesting does with the goal of reaching a decent buck/doe ratio. The fact is that most hunters willNOT abstain from shooting the 18 month old buck that they see on opening day and in order for more bucks to survive a mandate may need to be implemented. This is NOT for the production of "Trophy"bucksBUT rathera device that may assist in bringing the buck/doe ratiocloser to what it should be for a truly healthy herd.A secondary benefit of this IS more Mature Bucks. The alternative would be to keep killing does atan accelerated rate, to catch up to the buck kill, and we know that doesn't work!

s6

What is going to be said when PETA or the HUMANE SOCIETY complain about wildlife being managed for Trophy hunting and not food/population control. At this point in history, despite the factthat we as hunters area clear minority, the people asa whole still support us in our sport because we have always been able to claim that we are ultimately protecting the animals and the environment and that our actionswere based upon sound science. WHat happens in the future whenthe game departments are asked to explain the reason for the trophy hunting other than plain blood lust.What about guys instates like New Jersey.With a governore like corzine, they could easily have the entire Deer season cancelledas easily as they cancelled the bear season if they had AR in place without any rhyme or reason other than the hunter's trophy quest. What kind of scienceis that?how long before New York or Pennsylvania or any other state gets as modern and PC as NJ?Maybe some of you NY'ers have seen too much outdoor channel or something, but this ain'ttexas or wisconsin or anywhere else where you can take hunting for granted. Were' lucky we can still carry rifles in the field. If you don't exert a little self control someone else will do it for you. Are trophy antlers that important?

Ever wonder why you don't see dead deer in the open draped over the hood of a sedan or on the roof of a car anymore? Somethings changed and we all know it.

High grading as it refers to deer management:

The term "high-grading" was first coined by foresters, referring to timber crews removing all the highgrade

timber, leaving only low-grade timber for the future. For the whitetail hunter, biologist or

manager, it means "removing the superior yearling bucks, thus eliminating those that were going to be

the very best older-age buck s".

Antler point restrictions (APR) that do not protect the entire yearling buck age-class will high-grade

(eliminate) the best-antlered, existing yearling bucks from your herd. It may be 10%, 20%, 30% or

more, but, regardless of how many, they were going to be your very best 2 ½ s, 3 ½ s and 4 ½ s.

In Central NY, over 55% of the 1 1/2 bucks have 6 pts or better - nearly 1/2 of these 8 pts.

AR will simply target these even heavier, all but eliminating them every year. Thus "high grading".

Its true that the most of the less then 6pt 1 1/2 may catch up , but the 6 and 8's targeted at 1 1/2 are gone forever.

Steve

I could not agree more.

What is not being represented is the effort to produce a HEALTHY deer herd in NY. Not a TROPHY herd. A healthy herd is one that has a fair cross section andpopulation of all age groups. If you kill off better than 75% of all 1&1/2 year old bucks every year the numbers get skewed terribly. There needs to be a representative group of mature bucks to claim that the herd is healty. In some parts of NY, (like the Catskills)thatjust is NOT the case.How about using that platform to support AR's? Simply put more bucks need to survive past 18 months in order to establish a representative group of mature male deer, to claim a healthy herd.

In NY the standard AR of "3 on one side" will include a large percentage of 1&1/2 year old bucks. I myself over the years have shot many 6,7 & 8pt deer that were aged at 1&1/2 years old. Not one of them could be confused as a trophy class deer but they are legal by the NY AR standard. Nobody is trying to create "Texas" herd where you many not harvest anything unless it exceeds 140 inches. We need to keep perspective on this. The High Grading argument does not wash in so far as the NY argument exists.

s6

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Then how will it help if the best of the 1 1/2 are taken?

Steve

PS - sent you a pm

Then how will it help if the best of the 1 1/2 are taken?
Because the total # of 1&1/2 year olds will be reduced.

s6

I din't get the pm?

Don't know what happened.
I got an article you may be interested in - pm me your email if you like.

Steve

First, the healthy herd argument is a ruse from the start. AR is not about health, it's about antlers and improving the odds for hunters to kill a deer with large antlers. Anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together can see through the healthy herd charade so let's be honest when we talk about it, and not pretend the motivation is altruistic. Second, the deer in NYS are as healthy as can be. Health isn't determined by some arbitrary ratio between males and females, it has to do with the existence and/or extent of maladies found within the population. Somebody please tell me what disease, malady or nutritional deficiency we are trying to eliminate and how AR will help.

Doe to buck ratio? Certainly if there are not enough buck around to service the adult females then it would be a bit hard on the males to handle their task but once the job is done it just doesn't matter if every year you shoot every antlered deer in New York State. The remaining females and bb's would go about their business, blissfully ignorant that no mature males exist, and with more food available to them because the no longer needed males wouldn't be chowing it down. Now statistically, 1/3 of this remaining population would be bb's and next years antlered and sexually mature 1 1/2 year olds. In the spring, statistically each adult female will produce a male and female fawn. That brings the doe to buck ratio to to begin the next season to 3:2, the anterless to antlered ratio to 4:1 and the ratio of sexually mature females to sexually mature males to 2:1. Without something peculiar effecting mortality or birthrates you just can't get around these numbers. The imfamous ratios of 8 or 10 to 1 that many hunters cry about just doesn't occur until well into the gun season when antlered deer are heavily targeted in some areas. Now by design, the gun season in NY is set near the end of the rut when most of the mating is over so for the majority of the rut ratios are absolutely not anywhere near what AR advocates suggest. Not only that, but 50 + years of our current management strategy has produced a large and healthy whitetail population and with plenty of trophies to boot. But even in the worst case scenario I described where only 1 1/2 year olds are doing the mating you would have to argue that genes from a youngerdeerare inferior to the genes of an older deer in order to make a logical healthy herd argument. Last I knew, the genes a 4 1/2 year old carries are the same ones he carried when he was a bb. Clearly an animal isn't healthier just because it's older.

So now AR advocates suggest we abandon a proven management strategy for one that even theoreticallyhas not been shown to improve the health of a single whitetail. It offers only the promise of increasing the average age of the male population (which means bigger racks and the real reason for all the hoopla) and a lower doe to buck ratio but not so much during the rut when it matters but after the gun season takes out the majority of males when it doesn't.

No, AR is about making it easier to kill a bigger racked deer. Period. Nothing wrong with that either. I simply believe the individual freedom of choice to implement AR or not implement it is of more value than the somewhat improved odds to take a trophy brought about by a state wide law. I also fear the protentially serious problems that could arise that SteveBNy talks about.

The only comments that I can make from a biological perspective has to do with what our deer population would look like in the absence of hunting.Would it be the same make up as it is now across the age classes?Is it the natural order of things to eliminatemore than 75% of a partcular age class? Would that occur ina situationnaturally in anunhunted herd.
Of course not! So how can this practice be supported from a biological perspective? Whose interest is it serving?

Healthy and naturally occurring are 2 different things.
As Sylvan pointed out, no case I know off has been made that the current "hunted" age structure make deer unhealthy - especially statewide that would require a lawtargeting 55% of the best 1 1/2 yo bucks in CNY.

Steve