tmeservey

Some people don't want to be educated because they are blood hungry just to drop whatever comes along. Many have changed through education and watching hunting television programs where they practice AR/QDM on "teenager" bucks. I have to say watching the Outdoor Channel has effected how I hunt and pass on deer.

Laws restricting the harvest of small juviniles and arresting law breakers is sadly the only alternative to make things like mother nature intended.

Here in Greene county, we couldn't harvest does during rifle. Didn't bother me a bit. I just hunted does and meat with the bow and muzzleloader. One guy that doesn't hunt with a bow was upset because he uses just a rifle so I gave him one of my bow kills. he's actually going for his bowhunters safety coarse next year. A new bowhunter. It worked out good!

doctariAFC

Ok. Now we are getting down to the "meat" of the issue. This year the harvest numbers are on par with last season's, bucks about the same statewide and does slightly higher, which as expected due to the increase in DMP issuance. Changes in the DMAP and DDP programs which were implemented this year will take another year or two to bear fruit.

The most stunning thing about this year's harvest is the number of mature bucks that were reported. We had a far higher number of 130 - 200+ class bucks harvested, especially from WNY and CNY. I would bet the number of mature bucks taken from ENY was up, too. I am interested to see the harvest figures in the two original pilot AR WMUs in Region 3 to see if harvest numbers increased (bucks) significantly. I have been hearing otherwise. The other two WMUs should NOT have been added this year. A pilot program is just that, and the nothing gets determined after one season. We'll see some seriously diminished returns from those two WMUs this year, but what we cannot readily determine is how many hunters actually hunted these areas, vs prior to pilot program introduction.

But the "meat" of the issue is enforcement. Exactly how will enforcement of the new AR happen, and at what cost? We already know the DEC is struggling with mandatory game reporting. Check stations were poorly visited this year by NYS hunters, with possible exception of CWD containment check stations in Oneida County. ANd, we are having a hard enough time enforcing existing laws against poaching and "group hunting", let alone proper tagging/ recycling tags and the like.

So, do you know how the enforcement will happen and how much it will cost? FUrther, does anyone know how much it will cost in dollars, time value and historical data loss (different metrics invalidate historical numbers) to rebuild the reporting and harvest goal-setting procedures?

I'll bet you cannot answer that one, because no answer rightnow exists. Yet, I think we can agree this potential move is not without some significant costs. With the CF suffering, and despite the push to add a .01% surcharge to ALL OUTDOOR EQUIPMENT/ GEAR to bolster the CF, we haven't gotten that money and we are already looking at spending a very large sum of money on this new approach. That spend hampers our ability to buy and conserve lands, improve habitat, improve data reporting, hiring more personnel, etc. Considering the fact that ZERO biological benefit exists to the herds when higher AR or QDM practices are adopted, it seems to be a very expensive proposition, indeed. Not to mention it will be completely ineffective.

Enforcement of existing laws would go a long ways than writing new ones, adding unnecessary costs to the CF, screwing up the reporting foundation, while not hiring the manpower needed to enforce the laws and handle the reporting needs.

Education is the key, as well as enforcement of existing laws. WHat is happening with the AR crowd is pushing for symbolism over substance, nothing more, to feel "better". Trouble is, the "feel better" desire is way too costly and completely unnecessary. This year's harvest of mature bucks proves this 100%.

tmeservey

I understand what you are saying but imagine the trophy animals that would be taken if EVERYONE practiced alittle restraint. The potentials would be much greater and we would see more bucks in the woods. There will always be poaching and lawbreaking from low-lifes but AR are worth a try. If everyone has to play by the "antler Restriction" rules then hunters that illegally take smaller buck probably will be more apt to get arrested. Why, because hunters that are obeying the law will get pi@* and call them in. This very thing happened last year in 3J wmu. It's worth a try and I'm already doing it, why could we all? Hasn't cost me more money, licenses go up every other year. So what if it costs the state more. I love to hunt deer and it's worth it to me.

DougE

I'm not a huge proponent of AR in Pa but I'd rather have them than not.I don't see them making a huge differance in the number of big bucks but you definately see a higher percentage of deer making it in to another age class.More importantly,it forces hunters to slow down and be more sure of their target.I don't know what the long term results will be like but the short term results are good enough to see what happens a little longer.

doctariAFC

Its worth it to you personally, so I suggest you fund it personally. We have no clear cost analysis and I submit it is far more important in the scope of hunting to secure more public lands and access to hunting lands, and spending money on habitat improvement and quality land management practices than it is to retool a deer management plan that will deliver zero biological benefits to the herd as a whole.

What you do not seem to see or realize is that the Conservation Fund is where the $$ will come from. It is already strapped as it is, and considering the fact that 51% of the CF $$ goes to pay for FRINGE BENEFITS of State Employees, what good will it do for hunting. DOesn't address habitat change. Doesn't address protecting open spaces from developers and greedy Counties wanting more revenues from property taxes.

I understand what you are saying, but what you are saying holds zero water, offers zero benefit to hunting across the board. No, it only appears to satisfy your selfish desire to see a trophy buck behind every tree, closer to your stands.

I apologize for getting on you hard, but, quite frankly the cost of implementing a more restrictive AR is not justifiable considering the end results. If a biological benefit to the deer herds existed, you would have a point. Our number 1 responsibility is to the game animals, the resources, NOT our own personal desires for larger bucks.

Rich Davenport
Recording Secretary Erie County Federation of SPortsmen's Clubs
Member NYSOWA
VP/ Editor WeLoveOutdoors.com
Member - NYS Assembly Taskforce on Hunting and Fishing

(just so you know who you are corresponding with)

Incidentally, I am a bit grouchy today, as I am now contending with the latest regulations proposal changes the DEC is currently pushing concerning VHS. And this is getting messy, and the clock is ticking, so I do apologize if I beat on you too hard.

nyorange

DoctariAFC,

Keep up the good work and have a Happy New Year. Glad to know your involved in theseissues.

Sylvan

I've said it before...The way it is now if a 4 point walks under the guy who's not interested in participating in the "let em go so they can grow" philosopphy he has the option of shooting it. If a 4 point walks under the guy who feels that's what it's all about then he has the option of passing. What could be more fair, or more republican (little r)? As more and more hunters adopt and apply AR out of personal choice (and they are) it will become the defacto state law but at the same time keep the diversity of options open for all...I just can't see forcing a one size fits all philosophy down everybody's throat. If my chances at a wall hanger are somewhat reduced because my neighbor shoots a 4 point then fine. If he's happy then I'm happy for him. After all, if he shoots a monster my chances are also reduced somewhat now aren't they? I really don't believe thinking that what somebody else shoots is my loss is a healthy way to look at hunting. I believe individual choice regarding AR is of more value to deer hunting in NYS than having a few more trophies running around. Besides, the big ones are out there and they're all over the state. Making it easier totake one imo only devalues how special it is.

tmeservey

Doctori-Don't worry my feeling aren't hurt. I've been pretty easy on this subject and have refined myself from getting emotional and worked up about this subject.

My whole family and close frieds are employed by law enforcement agencies, BCI,state troopers, local cops, DEC Game warden(retired) myself a simple school teacher but why do we need all these funds to carry out a simple law of "don't shoot deer with 3 points or less"???

Why must we worry about a Conservation fund? I'm all about saving land and providing sportman with hunting public lands but the majority of us hunt private property.....we can care for the deer better than the state collecting more tax dollars from us will.

All the state has to do is declare the law"AR" or what have you, then enforce their law. If any money must be spent because of the NEW AR law then hire additional conservation officers to arrest the guys who disobey it. Because this will definitely be needed...unfortunitely. I don't know why all this money has to be spent for introducing a simple hunting adjustment.

Put the AR law into place then enforce it, shouldn't cost hunters any more except maybe hiring more game wardens. Maybe I'm stupid and don't see your insite on this matter.? The end result will be an older age structure on bucks even if it only means 2.5 year old bucks and a closer buck to doe ratio which is healthier and beneficial to a deer herd.

tsoc

Obviously a touchy subject at best! I am just tired of hunting my tail off to kill a 2 1/2 year old eight pointer.For the most part the only folks around here 3a and 3c that "consistently" kill big bucks are the people who camp high in the mountains.They wont see many deer but there is a greater liklihoood they will see a buck that has a few years under their belt.Other than the mountain hunters it is all about access (isn't it always)If you have accesss to prime ground you will have more opportunities at older age class bucks.
In the area's I hunt I saw a dramatic difference in the number of 2 1/2 year old bucks i saw during this pastarchery season.Antler restrictions have most definitely made a difference.
There are many challenges with this.I for one don't believe that the DEC can manage precisely enough.The circumstances vary by unit,very often area's within the same unit are vastly different.The farmland of western NY is a whole different situation than the adirondacks or where I am,2 hours north of NYC,more and more residential sprawl,huge anti hunting sentiment,decreasing amounts of land to hunt,no logging on state land which translates to over mature forests,no browse,no cover.The effect is to push deer down in to the 5,10,20 plus acre residential area's thatcan't be hunted typically for a variety of reasons.
I am very fortunate to rifle hunt whitetails unguided every year out in Idaho,where the natural elements of their wilderness and their population density contribute to a much more balanced deer population across the age classes.When I come home after my ten days out there,I "hardly" even feel like hunting at home.It is not easy to kill big deer out there but at least it is possible.
If I spent ten days up high in NY I would kill big deer most every year (at least I believe I would).I think it comes down to what is a reasonable expectation in having an opportunity to kill a better than average buck.As someone who works at it very hard on an all year round basis I don't think my surrounding units are there.
I am not faulting anyone's opinion here,I am just stating my own.

sierra6

I hunt units 3C and 3J almost exclusively. I absolutely have noticed a difference in the number of mature bucks I have seen. There is no doubt in my mind that the AR's are letting a few morebucks mature. On the other side of the coin I can say that in the last two seasons I have never seen fewer deer in25+ years of hunting these units. I think there is a real lack of participation in the reported harvest. My opinion is that since the DECALS system has been established far fewer harvested deer have gone reported and the DEC believes there are more deer inhabiting these areas than there actually are.

I have no problem with the DEC implementing the statewide antler restriction. Bring it on.

s6